Comment by gpm
2 days ago
> Have you observed Bun have more segfaults, OOMs, etc, since the Rust rewrite? Have you noticed more security vulnerabilities? Have you seen more bugs? (Of course you haven't, the rewrite hasn't even landed yet.)
On the flip side it's not on the yt-dlp authors to test Bun's new development process and see if it results in more segfaults, OOMs, security vulnerabilities, etc. In fact it would arguably be negligent to experiment on your users if you thought there was a reasonable probability of increased security vulnerabilities.
I think there's a good argument that the responsible thing to say would be "we aren't going to immediately support running our software on a new bun release cut from main right now".
It seems a bit unfortunate to me that they've apparently already intending to never support future releases instead of planning on re-evaluating in the future. On the other hand the yt-dlp developers definitely don't owe anyone anything.
> It seems a bit unfortunate to me that they've apparently already intending to never support future releases instead of planning on re-evaluating in the future. On the other hand the yt-dlp developers definitely don't owe anyone anything.
I think your final comment gets at it. If they said "OK, I am skeptical, so we're going to pause on updating to see how this Rust thing plays out" -- that sounds like a reasonable engineering decision. Saying "because they vibe coded we are dropping support for Bun" sounds political.
Why is it "political" to say "I don't trust software fully written by an LLM that has not been vetted by a human"?
That feels like an entirely reasonable stance to take.
And I see the argument/correction downthread that it's an "emotional" or "ideological" stance. Why does it have to be that? It seems completely rational and logical not to trust software written by a technology that is known to hallucinate and "cheat" to make tests pass.
Of course, I can't say that the yt-dlp maintainer is or isn't being political/emotional/ideological when making this decision; none of us can know their true motivations without asking them, and I choose the charitable explanation unless shown evidence otherwise.
> Saying "because they vibe coded we are dropping support for Bun" sounds political.
I disagree that this is a political stance. People based on their experiences have formed opinions on whether they trust that model of development or not. Bun having taking extreme measure of going 100% in within a week is itself extreme positioning from their side which will likely result in extreme reactions because depending on who you are and your experience you'd bet on the fact that it may or may not work out.
I disagree as well, and wonder if the OP meant an emotional or ideological stance instead.
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In all sincerity, what does political even mean in this context? ELI5, I’m a toddler when it comes to the politics of AI/LLMs.
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> Saying "because they vibe coded we are dropping support for Bun" sounds political.
I don't think "political" is necessarily a bad thing. Engaging in politics is how you shape the world. The mere act of writing and maintaining yt-dlp is quite political considering the context of IP law and enforcement that we live in.
It happens that in this case that I'd disagree with their politics if that's why they are dropping Bun support - I think there's a great deal of value in moving to memory safe languages, little harm in accepting anthropic compute and funding to do so, and that use LLMs themselves is roughly value neutral (though many uses are very much not value neutral). That said reasonable people definitely disagree with me.
vibe coding isn't a political topic lol
this amounts to "i don't trust this dependency anymore, so i'm cutting it out for my own good"
that's fine
That's not what I meant by political. I meant political in the more modern sense of "appealing to emotion rather than thought".
EDIT:
Everyone is rightfully calling me out that this doesn't make a lot of sense. What I meant is that the move is driven by ideology. I think there is a lot of overlap between politics and ideology, and an increasing amount of overlap between ideology and emotion. But it's fair enough to call me out here.
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Vibe-coded code is a code no human has written, so no human truly understands how it works. It's a perfectly reasonable technical decision not to support such software, especially if actual human effoft is required for that
I wouldn't have problems with AI-generated code, but LLMs are not AIs, they are random sentence generators. They don't have logic, yet programs are logical constructs. So let's call this what it is: randomly-generated code, kinda sorta filtered by humans and tests. It's not because the output distribution has a good match with the expected distribution that it's not random. An LLM that is "hallucinating" is still working perfectly well and isn't doing anything different, in the same way that a straight-line fit through data points isn't "hallucinating" where it isn't overlapping the data points exactly.
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Adding support again later is cheap.
Stopping maintaining and testing support for upcoming versions is cheaper than doing that work.
Sure it’s political but it is also just a sane approach, to stay away from such disruptive change and treat it as wait-and-see instead of tagging along for the ride. There is not really any technical upside to tagging along and promising support.
> Stopping maintaining and testing support for upcoming versions is cheaper than doing that work.
If it’s based on predictions of how some alpha software might turn out in the future then I don’t see how you can claim it’s cheaper.
If a bunch of new bug reports came in then you said no, then everyone would understand.
This is pretty obviously ideological otherwise. Which is fine, but we shouldn’t pretend otherwise because we might agree with it
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I disagree it's a political stance, this reads like a technical decision to me. In my opinion, there is no vibe-coded project that's going to be reliable long term. Eventually there's too much code, too many bugs and the whole things slows to a halt. Or it gets too expensive to continue to be vibe-coded, because token cost.
If they had decided to drop Bun for "AI assisted coding," that might strike me as a political decision.
I'm repeating a point I made in a sub-thread but please WHY should the onus be on yt-dlp to review their decision on a project that has zero commitment to review their very code?
I get the idea to "battle-test" the rewrite first but (a) how does one even determine a reasonable timeframe for battle-testing that much LOC and (b) each vibe-coded update pushed to the Bun upstream basically resets the battle-testing timer. I guess you could lag behind $LATEST by a given window but that just brings us back to (a).
That wasn't my read, though. I think if they don't want to go with the vibe-coded version then they have to go with the last release before that. And presumably that last release won't be updated (except with the vibe-coded version). Therefore it makes sense to deprecate.
What's wrong with yt-dlp - an app almost entirety driven by political stances - taking another one regarding llms?
What does "political" mean in this context? To me it seems obvious that yes, that is a political choice, as is every other choice a group of people make for themselves together.
“Vibe coded” means “human programmers did not review the code”. So I think that’s an entirely reasonable line to draw that’s no more political than dropping support for some other project that suddenly decided to drop all unit testing or to refuse to do any security vetting.
> It seems a bit unfortunate to me that they've apparently already intending to never support future releases instead of planning on re-evaluating in the future. On the other hand the yt-dlp developers definitely don't owe anyone anything.
The other side of this is that as far as I'm aware, Bun support in yt-dlp was always experimental. They mainly use Deno.