This is great. Will be useful for data access methods!
As for the detractors, from the first generics proposal this was called out as a "not now", not never. There were questions of implementation. They aren't a super large team, and they try to do things incrementally and do them well.
> As for the detractors, from the first generics proposal this was called out as a "not now", not never.
What? The post quotes the Go FAQ as saying, "we do not anticipate that Go will ever add generic methods". There is also some similar discussion of the original generics proposal, with language like "then it's much less clear why we need methods at all". (I'm omitting some context, but I don't feel that it changes the meaning.) Those feel much closer to "never" than "not now".)
Generic interfaces are going to be implemented later too if I'm reading correctly. So no real surprises there :). I guess the only surprise yet is that generic interfaces aren't supported, so generic methods physically can't satisfy any interface
They didn't say they never wanted to do generics, but that they did want to take their time and do them right.
Debatable how much they have been "right", although this gets them somewhat closer. And I think they have not been "wrong" in the ways they wanted to avoid (they referenced some issues with Java generics as prior art, although I forget the details).
Maybe, but personally I've become quite tired of programming languages "organically grown" as opposed to properly designed the first time. After a good decade of C then C++, I found ANSI CL (despite being a massive compromise and unfinished) much more coherent and complete than both.
I don't think anyone admitted any wrong or had any big change in philosophy. It's always a good thing to learn something along the way. But the current message seems to be that this was the plan all along, and it just took some time to design properly.
Of course adding generics is not something that every language needs to do. Scripting languages like Ruby don't really need this style of generics. It doesn't fit the design of the language, and it's not even clear what that would look like in Ruby.
But static typing with generics does solve a recurring problem, and we've seen some real convergence towards type hints and type systems even in staunchly dynamic scripting languages. Modern Javascript is now mostly Typescript, and they've successfully retrofitted a very advanced type system in the last place I would have expected 20 years ago.
It’s still annoying ~20 years after Java did the same mistake of not including generics, which was already clear to many people with C++ experience back then.
Where did "they" say "we" didn't need generics? That sounds like a bad faith / misinterpretation / straw man; as someone else pointed out, they postponed generics until they figured out the use cases and whatnot.
Remember that the generics implementations in other languages (like Java) take up half the spec + implementation - that's not something that Go wanted.
Of course, if you go back and watch the original Go announcement it said that it would need generics once they figured out how to do it. And when the first version of generics landed it was said that generic methods would be added later, once they figured out how to do it. So that isn't applicable here. The need was always recognized.
I frankly don't buy into this trope that a lack of monetary cost should shield something from criticism. Anything created by humans for other humans, especially tools meant for getting work done, should certainly be open to evaluation/judgement/critcism, regardless of whether the creator chooses to charge for it.
And it's not like Golang is some freshman student's hobby project; it was created by one of the world's largest tech companies, by people with a strong pedigree in programming language design.
This resolves a big gap in generics for most people coming from other languages to go so I completely approve this direction. Not saying use it everywhere but if you must use it, it’s better to have it on the struct than call a module level generic func.
This is great. Will be useful for data access methods!
As for the detractors, from the first generics proposal this was called out as a "not now", not never. There were questions of implementation. They aren't a super large team, and they try to do things incrementally and do them well.
> As for the detractors, from the first generics proposal this was called out as a "not now", not never.
What? The post quotes the Go FAQ as saying, "we do not anticipate that Go will ever add generic methods". There is also some similar discussion of the original generics proposal, with language like "then it's much less clear why we need methods at all". (I'm omitting some context, but I don't feel that it changes the meaning.) Those feel much closer to "never" than "not now".)
I could be mis-remembering it. I didn't look up and src it.
Gophers are usually quite fast, perhaps an elderly turtle would be a better mascot?
In day-to-day usage, the (fast) compilation speed matters much more than the (slow) implementation of new features.
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What a happy surprise today! The amount of times I’ve had to do weird janky package APIs so the API was still reasonable is more than I can count.
Lack of generic methods was really surprising to me when I was first trying to use generics in Go. Nice to see it being actually implemented
To be replaced by the surprise when you figure out these methods don't implement interfaces.
Still, in this case, half the feature is better than none at all, IMO.
Generic interfaces are going to be implemented later too if I'm reading correctly. So no real surprises there :). I guess the only surprise yet is that generic interfaces aren't supported, so generic methods physically can't satisfy any interface
slowly implementing all the things they said we didn't need
They didn't say they never wanted to do generics, but that they did want to take their time and do them right.
Debatable how much they have been "right", although this gets them somewhat closer. And I think they have not been "wrong" in the ways they wanted to avoid (they referenced some issues with Java generics as prior art, although I forget the details).
From another commenter here:
> The post quotes the Go FAQ as saying, "we do not anticipate that Go will ever add generic methods".
1 reply →
It's not a bad thing to realize that one can be wrong and then strive for change.
Maybe, but personally I've become quite tired of programming languages "organically grown" as opposed to properly designed the first time. After a good decade of C then C++, I found ANSI CL (despite being a massive compromise and unfinished) much more coherent and complete than both.
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There’s a fine line between being willing to change your mind and getting the basics wrong. Go has repeatedly gotten the basics wrong.
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I don't think anyone admitted any wrong or had any big change in philosophy. It's always a good thing to learn something along the way. But the current message seems to be that this was the plan all along, and it just took some time to design properly.
Of course adding generics is not something that every language needs to do. Scripting languages like Ruby don't really need this style of generics. It doesn't fit the design of the language, and it's not even clear what that would look like in Ruby.
But static typing with generics does solve a recurring problem, and we've seen some real convergence towards type hints and type systems even in staunchly dynamic scripting languages. Modern Javascript is now mostly Typescript, and they've successfully retrofitted a very advanced type system in the last place I would have expected 20 years ago.
1 reply →
It’s still annoying ~20 years after Java did the same mistake of not including generics, which was already clear to many people with C++ experience back then.
Where did "they" say "we" didn't need generics? That sounds like a bad faith / misinterpretation / straw man; as someone else pointed out, they postponed generics until they figured out the use cases and whatnot.
Remember that the generics implementations in other languages (like Java) take up half the spec + implementation - that's not something that Go wanted.
From another commenter here:
> The post quotes the Go FAQ as saying, "we do not anticipate that Go will ever add generic methods".
2 replies →
Of course, if you go back and watch the original Go announcement it said that it would need generics once they figured out how to do it. And when the first version of generics landed it was said that generic methods would be added later, once they figured out how to do it. So that isn't applicable here. The need was always recognized.
complaining about things given to you for free
I frankly don't buy into this trope that a lack of monetary cost should shield something from criticism. Anything created by humans for other humans, especially tools meant for getting work done, should certainly be open to evaluation/judgement/critcism, regardless of whether the creator chooses to charge for it.
And it's not like Golang is some freshman student's hobby project; it was created by one of the world's largest tech companies, by people with a strong pedigree in programming language design.
OMG. I'm going to recode some of my libraries.
This resolves a big gap in generics for most people coming from other languages to go so I completely approve this direction. Not saying use it everywhere but if you must use it, it’s better to have it on the struct than call a module level generic func.
Chasing a perceived gap between language features and user expectations has been and continues to be the greatest error in the leadership of Go.
The nagging imperative requires a stronger response than the capitulation of identity.
A sad day for Go, the pHDs have won, simplicity has died.
Agreed 100%. https://itnext.io/go-evolves-in-the-wrong-direction-7dfda8a1...
It only died if you actually applied it in your own codebase - as with any feature, using it is optional.