Comment by a-french-anon
4 hours ago
Maybe, but personally I've become quite tired of programming languages "organically grown" as opposed to properly designed the first time. After a good decade of C then C++, I found ANSI CL (despite being a massive compromise and unfinished) much more coherent and complete than both.
I know Go is justly criticized for many of its design decisions, but it still feels well-designed and "small" to me in day to day usage when many other languages don't.
Eh, the thing with generics coming late is pretty much what I meant by "organically grown".
My best litmus test these days is support for multidimensional arrays because it's always needed at some point in general purpose languages. CL and Ada had it right from the start while C++ needed C++23/26 to get std::mdspan and we still need to wrap it to pass the underlying/owned memory pool around (https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Multi-dimensional_array for more).
Doesn't every language support multidimensional arrays? It's just an array of arrays, no? What am I missing?
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Scheme is (or at least was) coherent. You don't need to look any further than set/setf/setq to see that Common Lisp is "organically grown" from the fertilizer of a committee. CL does its best to make every other lisp more attractive.
Which Scheme are we talking about? R5RS? R7RS-small? R6RS? With SRFIs? Without? Which scheme? Is it `(library...)` or `(define-module...)`?
Heh, I'd probably take R4RS with define-syntax :-)
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Scheme has a coherent and minimalist design, but its ecosystem and abstraction facilities feel too sparse for large applications.
When I started building a Lisp-based machine learning framework, Guile seemed like the right choice because it provides GOOPS and generic functions, yet I still ended up with a lot of boilerplate to compensate for the lack of a strong type system.
Scheme feels to me like C is to C++: not ergonomic for large-scale application development. Go is one of those languages that has both minimalism and productivity.
It isn't realistic to expect a design to be "proper in first place" because requirements change; my opinion is indeed the opposite - I find it natural for programming languages to have a (sort of) lifespan, and for new ones to (sort of) take their place.
Indeed, in 2012, it was not clear to anyone that generics were needed /s
"Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."
-- Greenspun's tenth rule
He had some lack of conviction to scope it so narrowly.
ANSI CL is such a breath of fresh air nowadays. Does what you need, doesn't get in your way, comes with batteries included. And conditions are just god-tier.
So which language had it right from the start? is there a language that has a very low rewrite status?
I think Elixir is a good candidate here. It's small, coherent, and composes well, and (at least to my understanding) the authors consider the language finished, with no new major features planned.
I'd particularly like examples of statically typed languages that "got it right" (since I love me my types)
Ocaml maybe? Multi threading didn't seem necessary and introduced the possibility of data races.
That’s whataboutism - no language is perfect, but given when go released it’s fair to hold them to a higher standard than languages what were designed 25 years earlier.
As an aside - D, Zig, Rust, even typescript got most of the lessons learned from C right
I'm not familiar with D, but Zig and Rust are well-known for continuously evolving.
Zig has the (in)famous "Writergate": https://github.com/ziglang/zig/pull/24329
And besides Rust's high count of RFCs, there are things like async (I'm not complaining about it, but its an obvious large-scale "change"), module system changes, etc.
(To be clear, I like both languages a lot. But I wouldn't call them slow moving or right from the start.)
D literally can't even maintain backwards compatibility between minor version updates not to mention a big part of the D community left when D reinvented itself with D2. Among languages it's probably the one that is constantly in a state of flux.
You may be tired of languages evolving over time, but there is no other way to build a rich and useful language.
"properly designed" - ah yes, programming languages are famous for universally agreed upon design philosophies.
I liked Objective-C (except the C parts). Such a breath of fresh air coming from C++ which was grown like a cancer with tons of features and you felt trapped by every one of them.
Objective-C in contrast was a very few additions thoughtfully added that composed cleanly and freed the programmer to actually get things done.
so make your own and let's see how you do
Have you?