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Comment by thfuran

2 hours ago

>Prompts like "move the code relating to SQL query analysis into a new file", "look for opportunities to use pytest parametrize to remove duplication in that test", "rename method X to Y".

There’s a lot of overlap there with the sorts of things traditional automated refactoring tools can do approximately instantly, locally, and for free.

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thfuran

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ryandrake  1 hour ago

Yea, when I read about people using AI with prompts like that, my first thought is, "Wow, that's like copy/paste, but instead of Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V, it's round-tripping to a server and using GPUs to do it." What's next? "Claude, rename the function doFoo() to performBar()"?

  • simonw  1 hour ago

    Here's the loop for a successful small refactor (anything beyond a rename that could be handled entirely by an IDE):

    1. Find the code you want to change

    2. Run the tests to confirm that test coverage is good for the starting point

    3. Track down everywhere else that might call or interact with that code

    4. Update the tests (red/green TDD)

    5. Alter the code

    6. Update the things that call the code

    7. Run the tests again

    8. Apply linters/formatters

    9. Address any feedback from linters

    10. Check to see if any documentation needs updating and do that

    11. Land a commit with a descriptive commit message

    I can get all of that done with a coding agent with a single sentence prompt - especially if it's already in a session where it knows that I do "red/green TDD".

    ... and then I can work on something else while the agent is churning through those steps.

    • ryandrake  40 minutes ago

      My point is that all these steps can be done very quickly by even a junior developer who knows emacs or their IDE, in a codebase with existing lint/format/test automation, without even taking their hands off the keyboard. You're already in your IDE, you can probably do it just as fast there. I don't see the cost/benefit of spending tokens and hitting a server for this kind of work.

      I guess the difference may be in people's mode of AI working: Do you primarily develop in your IDE or a bunch of terminals running vim, and occasionally fire up claude to do more complex things? Or do you primarily develop in a long-lasting claude terminal, and occasionally tab over to the IDE to watch/codereview? In other words: What dev tool is on your primary monitor and what's on your secondary monitor? It's getting hard for developers in one camp to discuss coding and see eye-to-eye with developers from the other camp.

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cautiouscat  2 hours ago

Yeah I do find myself leaning back into those tools. For awhile I’d just prompt to rename something. But when it’s my own tokens I’m paying for, I prefer the fast and free option :)

simonw  1 hour ago

Sure, and sometimes the coding agent will even use one of those refactoring tools on my behalf.

Getting them to run ast-grep is really fun, especially when it saves me from having to memorize that syntax myself.

mattacular  2 hours ago

What are some traditional automated refactoring tools that can do stuff like those tasks from the example?

  • swatcoder  1 hour ago

    ???

    Mature workflows for those kinds of tasks have been mostly ubiquitous across professional-grade engineering tools like those from JetBrains or Visual Studio itself for longee than many people here have even been working in the trade.

    It's clearly not the case for simonw, but much of what many people task AI tools to do foe them are only a novelty for the "VS Code"-type users who stubbornly refused to explore more professional-grade paid tools in the past.

    Yet for many tasks, those mature paid tools provided reliable and efficient features that make the AI approach look like an expensive, slow, and dangerously nondeterministic regression.

    • simonw  1 hour ago

      Oh I'd definitely classify myself as a "'VS Code'-type users who stubbornly refused to explore more professional-grade paid tools in the past."

      I've never liked the larger IDEs - VS Code only won me over because it was indistinguishable from a lighter text editor at first, and the IDE tools then emerged slowly as I used it.