Comment by curt15
6 hours ago
It's worth remembering Thurston's essay on mathoverflow (https://mathoverflow.net/questions/43690/whats-a-mathematici...):
"The product of mathematics is clarity and understanding. Not theorems, by themselves. Is there, for example any real reason that even such famous results as Fermat's Last Theorem, or the Poincaré conjecture, really matter? Their real importance is not in their specific statements, but their role in challenging our understanding, presenting challenges that led to mathematical developments that increased our understanding."
That's the product of math from the point of view of mathematicians. But is it the point of view of those funding math?
I suggest if one looks at the history of funding for mathematics and science, the product of these efforts is not understanding, but rather power. Funding went way up after WW2 when the war demonstrated that power flows from them. Math not only contributed to the scientific weapons of the way, but was directly used in operation planning (the birth of the field of Operations Research) as well as in cryptography.
The reason this matters is that AI is also a quintessential power-oriented technology. From the point of those providing the monetary lifeblood on which modern mathematical practice depends, the current math-AI discussion presents no issue worthy of concern.
> That's the product of math from the point of view of mathematicians. But is it the point of view of those funding math?
That's AI in a nutshell: the only point of view that matters is the point of view of people with a lot of money, and we've finally developed a technology that will allow all those other points of view to be squashed and discarded. The powerful won't need to be bothered with them anymore.
For them, math is an instrument. Disagree? Fuck you, you don't matter anymore. Be excited about the future!
Power depends on understanding - Seeing a larger scale view of what is happening as opposed to an arbitrary sequence of manipulations.
The foundations of the WW2 technologies you cite were dependent on previous theoretical efforts (ex:relativity) to develop a good understanding.
Without understanding, you get brittle demos which fail as the environment or problem description changes.
There is more to math, than input (money) and output (power). Sure, there is some relation between applied sciences and how knowlegde can assist effecting world events.
But for the most part, math discovery relied more on human curiosity than on resources to "do math". Conversely, if people allocate lots of money to developing AI, that doesn't mean mathematicians have an obligation to take the money provide ROI to investors.
I mean, in real life it's a combination of both. Some money is for math as an exploration of our world that will never pay off. Some money is learning things that may pay off long after we're dead (planting trees so our great grandchildren have shade). Some money is for solving problems right now.
Getting funding can be quite difficult at times, so you'll see some portion of researchers (or mathematicians in this case) take the dollars they can get.
The debate on the funds of scholarship and education has been between democratic vision of "an informed citizenry" versus the technocratic vision of education for jobs and technical progress. Both of those might be "power" (Foucault said "everything is power" and if so, it tells us nothing). Thus I don't think your particular framing is useful.
For many who pursue mathematics, it is a refuge from ordinary life (or normal "power"). Within mathematics, there has historically been a tension between the "Babylonian" model of pure calculation and the "Greek" model of advancement through understanding. If current AI models subsume mathematics entirely, the Babylonian model will have "won" and the possibility of an informed citizenry will be in doubt.
> That's the product of math from the point of view of mathematicians. But is it the point of view of those funding math?
Yes, and your examples are exactly examples of what the GP quote is talking about.
Of course people paying money want applications, which includes "power" in your kind of reductive framing (applications to war being only one of many types of applications, or we could redefine any gradient provided by expanded understanding as "power", in which case the choice of word just seems melodramatic).
What we've also learned over the centuries, a lot more clearly in the last few, is that seemingly pointless or applicationless understanding can very quickly become useful. This is why it's clearly worth still funding pure math.
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