Comment by HanayamaTriplet
18 hours ago
If the removal of standardized testing in 2021 was the real reason, then why is there a sudden spike of failure rates happening right now?
18 hours ago
If the removal of standardized testing in 2021 was the real reason, then why is there a sudden spike of failure rates happening right now?
https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio...
Please see the graph "Growth of the Math 2 Population by Major (2019-2024)". UCSD's Math 2 class is remedial high-school level maths. It has grown from under 100 students in 2016-2020, to more and more people each year starting from 2021.
UCSD tested the people who took this class, and 25% of them could not answer the question "Fill in the box: 7 + 2 = [_] + 6" (with only pencil and paper allowed, no calculators or other electronics)
this is a Berkeley CS class, not a remedial math class.
It takes time to work through the system and it has been steadily getting worse.
It was already discussed on HN.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48309233
I'm having a difficult time imagining how an admissions event in 2021 materializes in the spring semester of 2026 in a class largely taken by first-year students.
Could you explain?
It didn't just suddenly materialize.
From the current article
In addition to overreliance on AI, Garcia also pointed out that many students are underprepared mathematically, a concern echoed by campus associate teaching professor Gireeja Ranade.
From the article discussed the other week:
Over three years — from fall 2021 to fall 2023 — the letter said, at least 20% of Berkeley first-semester calculus students who took a diagnostic exam showed deficits. “Basic mathematical fluency is analogous to literacy; without it, success in university-level STEM becomes structurally unattainable for students,” faculty wrote.
It's been steadily getting worse. The current article only looks at F's which conveniently hides if there has been a slope down. Additionally, kids entering HS in 2021/2022 would just now be hitting college.
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One big reason is preparation, people start preparing for tests 2 to 3 years in advance. And the method of testing influences exams used in grades before as well.
So assume 4 years of high school and someone that just came in. They are still preparing for SAT like tests in their first year of high school. Someone in final year of high school is well trained in it. So even though the benefits do not carry, enough portion of incoming students are still reaping benefits of standardized tests. The decay only shows later when batches without any benefits of standardized tests are coming through.
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That's not what this actual data shows. While there has been an increase math deficiency, the increase in failure rates happened recently and probably only partially related to the math preparation issue.
I think we will make a major mistake if we think math preparation fixes this - especially in CS classes where AI literally calls out to be used for projects. And it certainly doesn't explain me hearing the same problems are happening at MIT -- they just are being a bit wiser about "catching students" (or rather not doing so).
I'm guessing the kids who didn't do the standardized tests at/shortly after 2021 were already prepared for it.
The kids who saw the removal of standardized testing 3 years out from going to college never bothered.
It takes time for students to work their way through the system.
In the spring, but not the fall?
Wouldn’t this change be evidenced right away after the elimination of the test as criteria if the test was responsible
No probably needs a couple more years. Writing the test itself is motivation to do well in HS math. If that no longer becomes a driver probably takes off the drive in other courses over a couple years. I bet without the SAT as a standardized test a lot of HS math courses are easier for the teacher because the quality can lapse.
Also some children who excel write their SATs sometimes 2-3 years before college and then re-write if need be.
Not if kids are prepping for the test in a way that results in real gains. Which seems likely, especially in the age of AI: "should I actually study math or just use ChatGPT to pass this course?" One semester of coasting through might not do that much harm, but at some point the compounding effects will tip you over the edge.
Define "right away". How long after taking the SAT does a child have their first classes at university? At least a year?
There's always a lag between cause and effect in education.
Works the other way too - if you introduce something positive in grade 1, you'll only see the results a few years later.
If it's a lagging effect, then why is the year-over-year spike in failure rates happening not just in 1st/2nd year classes, but also in a 3rd/4th year class at the same time?
Good point. I'm inclined to think it's because of a quality threshold in chatbots.
Entrance tests predict academic success , not 1st year success.
"Failure to complete the qualification" is the prediction.
Testing was the annoying flood barrier. AI is the rainstorm that shows why it was necessary.
This pattern reads heavily LLM in style, but also... that is spot on.