Comment by SlinkyOnStairs
17 hours ago
There's two meanings to "the body is a complex machine" and I think you're missing the forest for the trees here.
1) The abstract "dictionary" version: It'd be technically correct to say that the body is a machine under the definition of "A machine is a thermodynamic system that uses power to apply forces and control movement to perform an action.".
2) But there's also the less abstract/technical: "The body is alike the complex machines we have built", and this is much less true. Especially for the brain. The "neuron" analogy in machine learning is effective, but entirely wrong; We do not fully know how even a single neuron works, nevermind any complex system made out of multiple of them.
With regard to AI, there's a lot of people extrapolating "There is no magical animating spirit, the brain is just a pile of stochastic molecules following the laws of physics" into "The brain is an inert pile of matter, computers are an inert pile of matter, ergo AI/LLMs are like the brain!"
Especially so by people who have a financial/legal interest in doing so. "AI is just like a brain, fire your employees and buy our LLM now!", "AI is just like a brain, so it's totally not copyright infringement!"
> With regard to AI, there's a lot of people extrapolating "There is no magical animating spirit, the brain is just a pile of stochastic molecules following the laws of physics" into "The brain is an inert pile of matter, computers are an inert pile of matter, ergo AI/LLMs are like the brain!"
Why do you need a specific organization of molecules for a phenomenon similar to consciousness to arise? Does anyone seriously consider a brain to be something other than “a pile of molecules following the laws of physics”? If so that’s not science or philosophy, that’s religion. You have a virtually complete phenomenological model of the universe for all intents and purposes and yet somehow the onus is on the person being like “hey no laws of physics are being broken ==> the brain is simply following the laws of physics”
How is it possible that people think of subjective experience and get rabbit holed into some mystical world where subjective experience is this special exception to everything else that is simply an emergent property of complex physical systems? “AI/LLMs are just like the brain” is a strawman, why does this claim need to be true for LLMs or any artificial system to be considered to have something akin to the thing you think of as consciousness? It’s more: consciousness is not some mystical or religious thing outside of the realm of physics, it’s an emergent property of a complex system. AI is a relatively complex system. We don’t really know or understand the relationship between the raw physics and again what we consider consciousness, so it’s simply a statement of “we can’t refute that these systems exhibit something similar” because we don’t know enough to refute that
> Why do you need a specific organization of molecules for a phenomenon similar to consciousness to arise?
They would have to be similar because the argument is that they are similar; "AI is like the human brain" only holds true if it actually is like the human brain, not merely a superficial resemblance.
What I'm describing in that prior comment is how a lot of people drastically simplify the resemblance in order to make it feel true; That the lack of a Jesus Christ coming down from the heavens to tell everyone they have immaterial souls that the computers don't makes the comparison more true.
> We don’t really know or understand the relationship between the raw physics and again what we consider consciousness, so it’s simply a statement of “we can’t refute that these systems exhibit something similar” because we don’t know enough to refute that
Therein lies the conflict: "You can't prove it's not conscious" is an unfalsifiable statement. You can't engage with the argument because it's proponents will always claim victory, often with their own interests at play. All concerns about "superintelligence" or the long term ethics of "when do our robots become sufficiently intelligent that they'd be slaves?" have been subsumed into the AI marketing machine. However sincere one might try to address the issue, they look like a Sam Altman stooge by association.
It's like claiming the quantum fluctuations inside a pet rock as a "consciousness", even if observed directly any measurement of random noise can still be dismissed as "nuh-uh it just takes billions of years to have a thought".
More practically with current AI systems, we can look inside them pretty well and there genuinely is nothing there. Standalone LLMs are purely feed-forward systems. Their failure modes show that they perform no meaningful thought or world modelling during inference. They're just language models.
The reasoning and agentic systems are even easier to introspect. We know how they work, we can look at the full prompts & context they operate on. There is nothing there.
This is what sets AI apart from animals, which are given the benefit of the doubt on their intelligence.
I think the point of the commentator above is that there are two extreme narratives that start each start with an uncontroversial assumption and then taking it to a pretty wild place. One narrative takes the assumption that brains are just matter so it should be possible to engineer consciousness and then argues that LLMs are conscious. The other takes the assumption that LLMs aren't conscious but then argues that because they aren't we won't ever be able to make anything conscious.
I don't actually think the commentator you responded to is arguing for either of these narratives and I thought it was a pretty useful way to look at some of these arguments.
> “AI/LLMs are just like the brain” is a strawman, why does this claim need to be true for LLMs or any artificial system to be considered to have something akin to the thing you think of as consciousness?
It doesn't need to be true but a lot of people make it/assume it.
There's a lot of, perhaps casual and uninformed, conversations that strongly imply a deeper understanding of the "physics" of brain chemistry than we actually have, mostly by comparing it to machines we've constructed.
(I believe) We don't need to replicate human neurons and dendrites and whatever else is in there in order to create a sapient "machine", but whether or not we've actually done that isn't being helped by arguing that what we currently have is all that similar to a human brain.
oh yeah! i recall a paper linked here not so long ago, where it was shown that the dendrites of a neuron do computations themselves. The "weight per neuron" is very simplistic then. At the very least, each actual neuron is a network of weights.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/neural-dendrites-reveal-their...
I'm partial to "modern ML weights are much closer to 1:1 capacity mapping to synapse count than to neuron count". A single biological neuron is closer to 100 or even 1000 weights worth of ANN than to 1 weight worth of ANN.
In which case: modern LLMs are still running in a capacity-starved regime!
Even Mythos 5, the 10-trillion monster LLM, the scaling law boogeyman, the harbinger of Vera Rubin NVL72, doesn't quite rise to 100T-to-1000T of synapses. Anything the light of today's AI touches still lives in the shadow of what evolution has managed to cram into a single human skull.
We're arguing about the limitations of AI while our best AIs are still very subhuman in the scale dimension. The one dimension we know how to push. And it's already this tight.
10T is about a crows worth. The mythos count doesn't include any diffusion model. But the crows count includes all its visual processing. And tactile. Touch uses up enough that they use skin surface area to normalize across animals when doing comparisons. It is one of the reasons suggested to explain how crows exhibit tool use and language with only 10T. We have a lot more skin than crows, and indeed far more than mythos.
> A single biological neuron is closer to 100 or even 1000 weights worth of ANN than to 1 weight worth of ANN.
Even those comparisons need to be cautioned. The complexity of biology is enormous, and more importantly yet, it's simply not comparable. And doing so invited a bunch of bad assumptions.
An ANN could quite probably model a single in vitro neuron with reasonable accuracy. Whether that requires a hundred or a hundred million nodes isn't terribly relevant.
But the way neurons combine in vivo is completely unlike the way machine learning systems are built. Both "locally" in how neurons interface which is vastly more complex than a weighted sum of inputs, and the macro scale interactions of hormones and other chemicals.
It's not even a given that large numbers of neurons will create the emergent behaviour of human intelligence; Elephants have significantly more neurons, but they're not the triple galaxy brains writing all our science papers. Other animal intelligence similarly is only loosely correlated with brain complexity. (Heck, not to be forgotten is the other end of the scale. Plenty of microscopic life that manages shockingly complex behaviour without any dedicated neurons)
This also applies to ANNs. There's no reason to expect that stuffing enough matrix multiplications into a program will make it intelligent or turn out conscious.
Really, the history of machine learning suggests the opposite; That the big gains are primarily had in architectural changes.
In this regard, I find the talk of the "limits of AI" quite credible. LLMs have already hit the diminishing returns on their growth, and even reasoning/agentic models display failure modes that confirm they're not "thinking" in the ways that humans do.
This is not to say that we've hit the final limits of what AI in the broad sense can do, it's just that the next advancement won't be "LLM but even bigger"
5 replies →
I agree, we can miss the forest for the trees.
1) This definition could actually be expanded (for example, with definitions from Mumford or Reuleaux). But still this definition cannot be applied directly to living organisms. 2) This is in my opinion one of the sources of misunderstanding. We mainly operate on analogies and metaphors, so we have build this 'analogy space' around the idea that living organisms are machines. But it is only when we say 'alike' that we can truly gather some meaning out of it all, going beyond the 'behaves like' or 'is conceptualized as' when it gets messy.
> With regard to AI, there's a lot of people extrapolating "There is no magical animating spirit, the brain is just a pile of stochastic molecules following the laws of physics" into "The brain is an inert pile of matter, computers are an inert pile of matter, ergo AI/LLMs are like the brain!"
This is exactly my point. There is a fallacy operating from "A is not B" to "A is C". And this fallacy is pervasive in the AI research field, the book from Dreyfus (What Computers can't still do) explains that in much detail.
> 1) This definition could actually be expanded (for example, with definitions from Mumford or Reuleaux). But still this definition cannot be applied directly to living organisms.
I'm not sure I understand this. Why not?
It has to do with words and how we evolve words throughout history and across geographic boundaries. The term 'machine' comes, after some modifications, from the greek word mekhanos, which was used to describe something ingenious or a device made in some clever way or operating in a clever way. From there it went on to describe things like devices, to end up being the actual definition of what we might call 'a device' (a machine). The idea of 'mechanistic' is also related.
Traditionally, things that are alive were described with different words and assigned a different set of properties and characteristics. Machine can break, living things die. And we still have those two semantic frames separated: A living thing: can be harmed, it breathes, it nourishes, it reproduces, etc A machine: can break, can be fixed, can be repurposed, etc.
But because of a specific tradition in western philosophy, we started applying and analogy between 'inner mechanism (clever thing), that moves or provides a function, and seems to work in a causal way' and living things.
So when we say 'a living cell is a wonderful, complex machine', we are not actually saying it is a machine, we are operating through an analogy. That's how far we can go.