Comment by woodrowbarlow
9 hours ago
i would love to have a software engineer's union, not so much to get better working conditions but to be able to say stuff like "i can't implement that unethical feature, it's against union rules and i'd lose my membership".
You could join the Order of the Engineer and refuse to do things that would not be compatible with your understanding of the Obligation of an Engineer [1]. Of course, that doesn't stop your employer from asking someone else to do it and asking you to find other employment.
There's a few other orders or societies or what have you that you could join. Personally, I don't drive a train or even wear a stripey hat, so I haven't considered joining an organization for Engineers.
[1] https://order-of-the-engineer.org/about-the-order/obligation...
To be fair; you don't need a union... you can just say no. Context; I told them they couldn't ship this exact feature as designed. (It worked until I left.)
yes, true sometimes (not always). but if more people have access to a way to confidently say "no" (with protection behind them), then i think saying "no" would happen more often, by people who might've otherwise complied.
Without the protection of a union, "just saying no" is a good way to get fired
Honestly - shouldn't one assume that train already departed when they decided to work for company that is basically data mining operation with no ethics?
Start one. Unions are worker owned. You could also join the IWW.
are there examples of unions that have started around a focus on the ethics of the services they provide? unions traditionally start locally, around issues for which the locality is a hotspot, which is why they usually focus on pay and working conditions. it's also easier to get a large group to agree on a set of improvements to working conditions vs a set of ethical boundaries.
Unions in the US are nerfed, by law.
Collective bargaining is nerfed. Other structures remain viable and legal.
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Are you not allowed to leave the US?
I'd wonder how you'd get into that arrangement to begin with when the entire job is based on unethical tracking
You don't need to join a union to push back against unethical feature requests.
The collective leverage of a union gives you significantly more power to do something like this.
Only if the union is against the unethical request. In some cases the union may be for it, which makes it even harder to push back.
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> You don't need to join a union to push back against unethical feature requests.
If you push back against unethical feature requests:
No union: you get fired
Union: you still get fired
Maybe don't apply to Meta in the first place? With their track record it's pretty obvious that you'll be part of building something morally dubious.
Still a better outcome than tossing your ethics overboard.
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maybe, but the union could provide a lot of services to someone who loses their job this way (like income insurance and legal services) and could leverage collective power over companies that demonstrate a pattern of behavior.
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I didn't get fired.
Take a lead, let me sign up :)
And this is why we don't have one. Someone else is expected to do the hard part.
same
That’s what licensing is for, not unions.
i don't believe that software development should require a license. imagine having to get board-licensed to download gcc; therein lies the death of free software and owning your devices.
> therein lies the death of free software and owning your devices
(That’s what these people want)
A union could absolutely get involved in something like this.
> not so much to get better working conditions but
... why not both?