I think discussion here are missing that most people do not own a PC/laptop and if they do barely ever opens one, and not because they can't afford it, but it just didn't fit into their daily lives. This is obviously entirely different from the HN crowd.
And in that case, a folding phone is huge! Having played with one that my parent use, it's such an upgrade for reading/scrolling experience. When we all are spending so much time on the phone (that's a separate discussion, but it is the reality).
As of 2021, 78.4% of households own a laptop or desktop, compared to 85.6% with a smartphone. [1] And it's likely driven more by economics than lifestyle choices. It's 50.9% for households earning less than $25k, and 96.1% for households earning > $150k.
The reason PC purchases plummeted is not because people stopped using them, but because if you don't use your PC for high end gaming (or a tiny handful of other esoteric tasks) then one from a decade, or even more, ago will function 100% as well as a brand new one.
Ownership isn't active usage though - My parents have their laptops (and probably 4+, since they do have retired ones stashed), but just don't use it, especially now that they retired.
I had many co-workers not owning a laptop outside of their work provided one.
There is a mix of a workplace permissive enough of light use (browser/mail) for personal purposes, and most services having an app that can be better than their web site (banks in particular).
Of course most people will have a laptop and just not use it for years, but there's definitely people just not buying one in the first place.
My mother had an iMac that we bought for her (to replace the old one that wasn't receiving security updates) that remained in a box for two years because she was afraid of the upgrade complexity. There was none. Her whole computing life was Hotmail and web surfing.
She told me she loves her iPad for web stuff. I sent her one of my old MacBook Airs because she wanted a laptop. I don't know that she ever uses it. I sent an email asking once. She didn't reply. There are two full-blown Macs in her home. They don't count for anything.
>I think discussion here are missing that most people do not own a PC/laptop and if they do barely ever opens one, and not because they can't afford it, but it just didn't fit into their daily lives
Anybody who works in an office job, employee or freelancer, (so 100s of millions in the US alone) both work with and own a PC/laptop. And that doesn't even count gamers and creatives. And many more that work blue collar jobs still own one, according to statistics. Some 16 year old might just use their smartphone, but most adults also use a laptop.
What's huge about it for someone who doesn't own a PC laptop?
Every example I've seen or tried using a fold-able was just a regular smartphone with a screen that displayed apps that looked like the app doesn't fit on the phone very well. The few that did fit didn't seem to provide any real advantage.
That and the fold-able users I know all run into reliability issues with screens breaking over time.
For me, it's entirely ended my tablet use, and now rarely reach for a laptop. I still have a desktop with two large screens, but I don't feel a need for anything in between any more.
The screen is big enough for me that given it's always in my pocket it's far more convenient to grab my phone than getting up to grab my tablet or laptop.
> I think discussion here are missing that most people do not own a PC/laptop and if they do barely ever opens one, and not because they can't afford it, but it just didn't fit into their daily lives. This is obviously entirely different from the HN crowd.
This isn’t my experience. In our house: I’m a software engineer, and our 13yo son writes C++ code as a hobby, so of course we both have laptops and desktops. But my wife, and our 8 year old daughter, both have laptops too, and use them regularly, despite not being remotely technical; our daughter mainly uses her laptop for games-she also has a tablet and a Nintendo Switch, but for many games (The Sims, Minecraft, Roblox) she prefers her laptop; my wife plays The Sims too, but she also prefers a laptop to a phone or tablet for sending emails and general web browsing.
Similarly my dad (a retired pharmaceutical company executive) is a lot less technical than he used to be (he hasn’t kept up to date and maybe some of these things get harder with advanced age), but he also prefers his laptop for some tasks (e.g. email, internet banking) despite also being a regular phone and tablet user
To be fair, where this applies is specific countries outside the US, not just outside tech. Very few Americans own a smartphone and not a computer, and they are mostly poor and not in the market for an ultra-luxury phone. You’re describing affluent counties that became so recently, like China, South Korea, and Japan, and indeed that’s where foldables are currently doing well.
Exactly. Considering you could buy an iPhone and a MacBook Neo for roughly the same cost … will be very interesting to see this device in action. Can iOS replace MacOS for a user that doesn’t need a local Xcode? Can I spend $2k for the device I use in my pocket and on my desk… and put the rest of my money into cloud/server infrastructure if I have that need?
A folding phone basically turns into a smallish tablet. That may have an attraction to some people, but even fewer people own or want a tablet than own or want a PC. And the people who do want tablets already have a better one than what a gimmicky folding phone can give them.
I do have a laptop, and two large screens for my desktop, and my foldable is still a massive upgrade. I haven't used my tablet since I got it. I use my phone for things I'd often grab my laptop for etc.
I hardly use the thing closed, even for things I easily could.
> On the other side of the pond, Android foldable owners have spent seven years discovering which of their apps work and which ones don’t.
Funny how this thing isn't even announced yet and the fanpeople are already glazing Apple over it :p
I daily a Surface Duo 2 as my car-relegated phone, running Android 12 (which I kinda regret upgrading from 10) and loaded with offline maps and plenty of cached music, and it has never been an issue when an app doesn't gracefully handle being stretched across both panes. Some of them aren't ideal to use that way with the bezel in the middle if they put interactable UI elements there, which is what the SDK support update is surely about, but I have never ever seen an app fail to work like this blurb is worded to claim.
There's a toggle in the application manager for whether or not an app should open dual-pane, and single-pane is the default anyway because why wouldn't one want to multitask?
I have a Pixel Fold and similar experience - some minor nuisances but not come across anything that doesn't work. The biggest nuisance is apps restarting when switching from the front screen to the big screen.
Some weird OS experiences with my Fold recently.. the bottom of the home screen shortcut bar is appearing over apps, unexpectedly. Namely Monarch Money
> The hardware picture has been clear for months. The iPhone Ultra, the apparent name for this new form factor iPhone, is a book-style foldable, reportedly featuring a 7.7- to 7.8-inch inner display and a 5.3- to 5.5-inch cover screen, unfolding to a 4:3 ratio closer to an iPad mini than a widescreen display.
Excellent. Now that you have a supply chain for small screens again, please use that same cover screen to make an updated mini phone! I've sat in patient silence waiting for this exact moment!
I've been dailying a pixel fold 9 pro for a while now and love the thing. Seeing Apple finally join in is exciting as heck. I wouldn't hold your breath for a non visible crease though, nor for it to necessarily be class leading in its screen tech. I doubt any of it matters though, the Pixel Folds aren't exactly class leading in these regards either and the fold is just not a concern at all once you're using it. it's practically invisible from head on, and the "plastic screen protector" worries are really not an issue either. The durability of the inner screen is actually much better than you'd expect since it spends most of its pocketed life protected from external scratches. Mines still in great shape, even though I do not use a case nor any other form of protector.
Where apple has a significant opportunity here is the software side though. Google unfortunately doesn't seem to be too interested in exploring UI concepts with the Fold, leaving that to OnePlus and Samsung, both of which have imo better multitasking experiences than the Pixel Fold. Apple making an iPhone that becomes an iPad would probably be enough for them to win significant marketshare, but I hope they use this opportunity to do some interesting things with UI beyond what the iPad can do.
My Oppo Find N6 has a near invisible crease. Technology has come a long way and Chinese manufacturers are leading in components selection (best camera sensors and lenses, best silicon-carbon battery tech, good amount of memory, newest SoCs etc) with Google, Apple and Samsung catching up.
I have a Pixel 8a, and I have to use a case for it, because it appears to be designed to be as slippery as possible. Every edge is round and there's nothing to grip - it feels like an aluminium/glass bar of wet soap.
The 10 feels like it should be more slippery, but for some reason, it isn't. It stays stuck in your hand like glue, despite the back feeling like another glass screen. Something special in is coating
I have a 9 pro and it was very slippery at first. I put it face down on a slanted table and it slid right off once.
Anyway, I took the case off after a while. It's not new anymore. Your mileage may vary, but despite dropping it a bunch, it hasn't shattered and the edge only shows some slight marks from falling.
I don't believe it's really that, but the fact that Apple 1) is profitable 2) holds a lot of cash, and 3) has a proven capability to execute new products.
So by not attempting to enter market niches, they could be potentially leaving a lot of money on the table, while the downside of the product failing to get traction doesn't really kill them.
How timely, I'm writing this from a Pixel 10 Pro Fold I bought in January.
Last night I opened it to find the inside screen having dead pixels in the center by the bend.
I love foldable phones. I use it all the time in both modes, but now I'm currently procrastinating looking up my best buy warranty plan specifics.
For a small percentage of mobile superusers, I really do believe foldables are the future. Having the ability to use desktop mode by default, or multitask, is huge.
I've gone all the way around and came back. The Samsung Fold was awesome and convenient. But carrying an ipad mini and a phone is not that big a deal. It's quite nice that the ipad mini does not have whatsapp or SMS plugged into it, so I can use it exclusively for reading books or playing music.
The cost of the iPad Mini + my phone was like $600 and the folds - even the 6th gen and above - are super unreliable, so right now that seems like the best play.
> It's quite nice that the ipad mini does not have whatsapp or SMS plugged into it, so I can use it exclusively for reading books or playing music.
Both a phone and a tablet can come with WhatsApp, it's a user choice whether they are there and the frequency of checking them. Global muting the apps is also an option.
I understand your point, but it is a point mitigated by user intervention. Now, if we want to say reading on a bigger screen than a phone is a better user experience, I'm on board with that.
The iPad Mini is such an underrated device. For years they have been my primary computing device. The form factor is so close to a paperback book that it's easy to carry with you. Heck, it even fits in the front pocket of my Dockers. Toss in in the front compartment of my backpack.
A big thing about the form factor is the perception. If you are in a meeting and pull out a full size iPad or your laptop to look something up, it certainly feels different than using your mini. Same at a restaurant.
At the park with the dog I can carry it like a paperback, sit on the grass and read. It's perfect for everything except phone calls.
iPad mini is awesome for reading however, it took forever until Apple powered it up.
Personally, as someone being used to the Motorola Razor foldable, which happened to present back then. It was really good and cool as well. I hated the ever smaller getting Ericson smartphones.
I am looking forward to Apple's copy of Samsungs foldable smartphones. After all, I don't want to carry an iPhone as well as an iPad mini around with me.
And I see the foldable more as a replacement for the iPhone ultra max phones. No matter how large the screensize they have, they never beat the iPad mini on readability, even being stuck with the old one for many years.
The thing I like about the iPad Mini is that it's an optional carry. I don't need an 8" device every time I leave the house. And maybe that's going to be the appeal of the foldable.
It fits in a front pocket if you wear Dockers or equivalent, which have notoriously large pockets. It fits well in the front of a backpack. It's most akin to a slightly wide paperback book.
I have a small shoulder bag which also holds wet wipes, a bottle of water, raincoat in case it rains etc... can't really go back to just using my pockets now.
Not a fan of foldables, if I am honest. Just a personal opinion. I do not like the it feels in the pocket bc the device needs to double its thickness when folding over.
When a mobile device manufacturer (samsung, hauwei, now apple) makes a foldable, I get the impression they're running out of ideas with the "slate" form factor and are trying to stimulate sales.
Personally, I would want that R&D spend and innovation to go to more sustainable materials, longer lasting devices, and easily repairable parts to extend the devices useful life.
You and me both, but I also recognize others disagree so ultimately, we'll see what the market decides.
Apple's annual gross profit was $195B last year against an R&D budget of around $35B. So, they've got more than enough spare change to throw around. I'm sure whatever they're spending on foldables isn't impairing them financially in any way.
I'm more concerned for what it means for focus, fragmented ecosystems, user experience, etc.
From Jobs:
"People think focus means saying yes to the thing you've got to focus on. But that's not what it means at all. It means saying no to the hundred other good ideas that there are. You have to pick carefully. I'm actually as proud of many of the things we haven't done as the things we have done."
The market && apple's choice of either pricing it aggressively or pricing it so that nobody can afford it. Both have equal weighting here.
The Z fold has succeeded enough that I see it out and about even outside tech-circles. Oppo and Google have had multiple generations of well-recieved folables too, despite not nearly having the marketing machine of someone like Apple.
> When a mobile device manufacturer [...] are trying to stimulate sales
> more sustainable materials, longer lasting devices, and easily repairable parts to extend the devices useful life
What they are doing, like all for-profit companies, is focusing on profits, for better or worse.
What you are suggesting (and what I'd like to) directly works against the goal of making more profits, literally all of those things will lead to less income for them.
I also want those things, but realistically, because of the economic systems we have, those things will never be the focus, because the market doesn't reward those things, and doesn't seem likely that'll change either.
I don't know what the solution is either, status quo simply sucks, with no escape in sight. Seems to be getting worse in fact.
In a capitalist system, those are the only ways to get for-profit companies to care about externalities (which is what sustainability and longevity address).
It's definitely not due to running out of ideas. I have a Galaxy Fold and love it. I owned it for about two months before my wife went out and bought one for herself. And everywhere I go people want to look at it and play with it - quite remarkable.
I haven't encountered any issues with apps not supporting the wider aspect ratio. It's one of those cases in which Android's up-front investment in more flexible software paid off. Android apps were harder to write up front because they had to support resizable layouts from the get go, but by the time stuff like foldables were introduced the software library was already ready for it all.
Think it'll last 5 years? I don't strongly care one way or the other about the form factor, but if it's more expensive, less durable, and has a worse camera, then I'm perfectly happy to have a one-piece phone.
Electric car drivers have range anxiety, and I assume foldable phone users have fold anxiety. Do the OS integrate some counter versus Mean Folds to Failure?
Tbh I think the microsoft neo (or was it the duo?) was the "best" - have 2 (or more) screens but put them on a hinge. You can get one big screen with whatever panel quality you like (hell, make it a cheap or transflective if you want), or you get a smaller screen if you wish.
There's a reason the Asus Duo is so much cheaper than the ThinkPad Fold X1 and all other OLED "folding" screen devices.
> Personally, I would want that R&D spend and innovation to go to more sustainable materials, longer lasting devices, and easily repairable parts to extend the devices useful life.
Apple probably leads the industry in sustainability–the MacBook is 60% recycled material.
They’ve been working for years to be carbon neutral by 2030.
The issue with repairability is always the conflict between water resistance, thickness and feel vs the compromises to that needed to make removable batteries or back cases work. There are ways around it but the vast majority of the market prefers solid near glued together phones so that's what companies make.
> I get the impression they're running out of ideas with the "slate" form factor and are trying to stimulate sales.
I think we've just reached the local maximum of the phone design and adding folding gives two different branches to go down: 1) same size screen unfolded but smaller folded size or 2) folded with an external screen roughly the same size as a normal phone today but it expands to a much larger one unfolded. We'd kind of reached the peak size that people can reasonably pocket so option 2 allows for even bigger screens for people willing to pay without having to have a second device (something like a tablet).
The folds do add functionality and I think there's an impulse that leads people to say they don't see the point of something just because they're not interested in it personally.
> the vast majority of the market prefers solid near glued together phones so that's what companies make.
the vast majority of companies only make solid near-glued together phones, so that is all anyone buys.
if apple made a phone with replaceable batteries with a bit more thickness and some compromises on water resistance vs. cost, you'd actually see the consumer preferences play out.
> The folds do add functionality and I think there's an impulse that leads people to say they don't see the point of something just because they're not interested in it personally.
you're going to have to go through some real mental contortions to support foldable phones as consumer choice while treating repairability/replaceability as inherently not worth it because you like slim designs.
> the compromises to that needed to make removable batteries or back cases work
Seems like they are going to have to make that compromise, at least in the EU market. User-replaceable batteries from 2027 onwards, unless they are willing to quit the market (probably still requiring screwdrivers, but hey, its something)
Or, alternatively, they feel like they finally cracked the code and think they can do it better. That's when Apple finally enters a market.
Consider how much money they put in to building a car to cancel it when they decided they couldn't, in fact, do it better. I'm sure there are hundreds - maybe thousands - of failed prototypes along the way.
Opposite opinion. I have the Huawei trifold, and it's by far my favorite phone I've ever used. I'm typing this on that phone right now, half-unfolded to square mode.
I don't care that it is a few mm thicker than other phones when it's in my pocket. It's so much better than a regular phone for everything from reading books to writing email to watching YouTube, and it's also a slightly thicker regular phone. It also has a pretty good UI for moving apps to side-by-side mode, which I use so often that I'm 100% sure I will never go back to a regular phone.
I think it's because they're running out of ideas too BUT the current generations of foldables (galaxy fold 7 for example) are essentially indistinguishable from non folding phones when closed. Yes, that means they could have made a thinner phone over all - the Galaxy Fold is the same thickness as the iPhone 17 pro max but both are twice as thick as the air - but I think consumers have gotten use to thick heavy phones - its why the SE and air don't sell as well IMO
A lot of the iPhone design decisions have generally had the nature of something I didn't like that some market research must have shown to be in demand. And so the iPhones have kept getting bigger, even though I've held on to my 4, 5S, and SE's for dear life.
People seem to want them, so Apple end up selling them. We're probably in the minority, and I can't fault Apple for not turning down the money.
Although I do wonder how the hell cases and screen protectors work for foldables.
I know people who put up with Android because they want a foldable phone, to be able to read documents more easily without carrying two devices. They're clearly not for everyone, but the relative sales of Pro vs Air or Mini suggest that these will be more popular than this suggests.
iPhone useful life is already pretty great. I'm using one regularly from 2020 (as a work device) - better than any laptop I've ever owned including classic-era Thinkpads have lasted as a daily driver.
Try the RAZR style folding phones. It trades length for thickness which is a godsend for me. I hate how unpocketable phones has been ever since like 10 years ago.
That is likely what it will be. The iPhone Air was probably just a test to see if all the super-thin components could work. Now they'll throw a hinge in the middle and a screen on the back. It'll end up being 2 or 3mm thicker, because of the bonus screen.
I was hoping for a small phone as well since I’ve read rumours about the display being 5.3in when folded. However it also said 7.8in unfolded, which implies 4.1in × 3.3in folded… quite big and squarish.
I guess a foldable phone that unfolds to be that large kind of competes/kills the market for iPad, so this kind of user probably expects to store the device in a bag instead of pocket, and use bluetooth / smartwatch / siri to interact hands free instead of pulling the phone out all the time.
The iPad lineup has forked into two classes that seem to be drifting in the direction of “alternative laptop” or “portable television” respectively. A big folding phone would maybe eat into that second case somewhat, but I still view it as a distinct specialization. The difference would probably be clearer if they set up iPadOS to be viable as a shared multi-user/family device instead of assuming it must have a single owner.
not necessarily, some foldables are almost as thin as a usual phone even when folded.
But as much as I like flip phones aesthetics, I do agree there lot of other meaningful areas where the R&D spend is actually needed
The last two Apple products I purchased for myself were:
- OPENSTEP 4.2 --- for use on a NeXT Cube w/ a Wacom ArtZ tablet
- Newton MessagePad
I've been waiting for Apple to make a product which I want to use since the Newton was shut down, making do w/ a succession of Windows tablets and a Wacom One display attached to my MacBook, and a Kindle Scribe (recently upgraded to a Coloursoft), and a Galaxy Note 10+ --- being able to use the same stylus on all of my devices is quite nice.
> Personally, I would want that R&D spend and innovation to go to more sustainable materials, longer lasting devices, and easily repairable parts to extend the devices useful life.
Does the broad market care about sustainable materials? What does that even mean? Almost no one buys something because of sustainable.
For longer lasting devices, people like buying new phones. The iPhone has pretty much not changed in the last 5 years. People just like buying the new and best
Same thing w/ repairable parts. People just like buying new things. And it's not a conspiracy theory, it's just observed behavior.
So I'm glad they're trying something, because as much as you would like these other things, the broader market of consumers don't care. Yes profits are a useful proxy for value people place on your activities. Not perfect but in the long run if you provide a shitty experience you're likely to lose.
Considering how many people are dailying >6.8 inch phones (already massive in the average sized pocket), complaining about a thickness of 11mm* is just small brain behavior. I guarantee the weight is what you're noticing more than the thickness.
As someone who's into foldables but doesn't use one, the benefits are very real, especially if you read a lot of articles/blogs. Only reason I'm not using one is I can't afford the ones I want. How is a smaller phone, that's ideal for 1-handed use while having an expansive screen available at any moment, "running out of ideas"??? I like large screens, and I like being able to fit it in a small chassis. That's all it is.
* Samsung, Oppo, and Google's currently available foldables are all under 11mm
A foldable iPhone will definitely solve one of the biggest problems at Apple. Foldable phones won't last 5-10 years. I can see Apple making all iPhone offerings foldable down the road
Are they really having any issue getting people to upgrade? At least here in Canada, carriers harass everyone to upgrade with deals where you can get a new phone for $0 once your contract is up to keep you renewing your contract.
My non-techie parents pretty much always get the latest non-Pro iPhone every couple years because their carrier calls them and practically begs them to take a new phone.
It's extremely rare to see anyone with a phone older than like 4 years.
For me at least the screen size isn’t the limiting factor the lack of a keyboard is. I don’t know why I’d choose this device over a Neo or Air + non-folding phone.
Mentions of the resizable iOS apps seem to signal a desktop dock mode, which ties into your concern.
We know Apple is bringing a folding iPhone through manufacturing leaks. A desktop mode is less likely to be leaked, since it would be mostly software and (a lot) less reliant on third parties.
I don't think I get foldable phones. When is the extra space necessary? I mean most of them turn from a somewhat 9:16 aspect ratio to 1:1. You don't earn anything in space to consume media content. The only real improvement might be for multitasking?
The foldable iPhone will have an aspect ratio very close to 3:2 for the outer display (like the original iPhone) and of 1.41:1 (between 3:2 and 4:3) for the inner display (similar to an iPad).
I mean you can see more at once but now your typing experience is worse. I have an iPad and it's by far my least productive device unless it's connected to a physical keyboard. Typing on a giant touchscreen is so much more tedious than my phone's screen.
Running two full size apps at once is pretty nice. Text conversation and website, things like that. Or copying and pasting credentials out of a password manager
Foldables are life changing - everyone I know who's got one, doesn't go back.
It's all the benefits of a tablet with the weight/thickness of a cell.
Example: maps shows both the map and listing detail.
Example: messaging/email apps show the message/channel list and the current message
Example: virtual keyboard has plenty of space for punctuation, emojis, etc.
Example: games and multimedia are perfectly pleasant to view, even for hours.
Example: I used the remote-control app to take photos from my Sony and Fuji cameras, and the live preview was large enough to easily check for tack-sharpness, which is hard even in the camera viewfinder.
Everyone I know over 70 would love something that works like a phone when folded but like a tablet unfolded -- big enough for text to be big, small enough to carry, and without fiddly interface -- and at a reasonable price for those anchored in 1980 prices.
(If those under 17 got attached to foldables, it would be an enduring franchise.)
For those of us in between, I'd love it if my foldable when unfolded were finally the OS of choice - iPadOS or iOS or even macOS. It would be the hub for hub-and-spoke devices...
Won't happen anytime soon because the smartphone manufacturers have decided that folding is a flagship phone feature with a flagship price tag attached.
I'm still waiting for a large folding phone with no/minimal outer display and with all other features cost reduced for half the price of the flagship folding phones.
The OS of choice may be an “impossible” ask from Apple. However with the Neo running on the A18 I don’t think we’re far from seeing something along those lines.
The thing I liked most about the Samsung Galaxy Z Fold 4 I had for a while was that I met a lot of interesting people because of it.
It broke like four times under warranty because the crease got gummed up with their glue strips in the summer or it got brittle when I travelled to Greenland because of the cold in the winter, it felt uncomfortable and often moved in the pocket you put it into in a way that would annoy you every time you sat down somewhere.
But once you pull it out, something magical happens. Foldables are still one of those items you will rarely see in the wild, and it peaks the curiosity of people in a way that will make them come over and ask questions.
You see them touch it really carefully and open it really, really slowly because they are afraid they might break it, and suddenly you have this magical, foldable screen right in front of you that turns this heavy slab into a form factor known by anyone who ever held a book in their life.
When it snaps open or shut with the satisfying noise and haptic feedback, it makes them genuinely happy and smile, and watching different people having the same experience over and over again is kind of satisfying and in a way justified the price for me alone.
I am sure the Apple foldable will have its downsides and is heavily overpriced, and if you buy it in the EU, you won’t be able to use half the features, but I am still going to get one because I will have a lot of joy watching people interact with new technology for the first time when I travel, and I love listening to how they think it could improve their life or how and for what they would get one themselves.
> stop thinking about creating software for a specific piece of hardware. Design software to be adaptable across a range of screen sizes and aspect ratios
This is right, of course, and pretty obvious I think. But a part of me also thinks that we're still not good at it (or are not good at it anymore). At the very least, the tradeoff is a huge increase in UI complexity. It was so, so easy to design UIs with Hypercard when you knew it was going to run on a 512×342 display.
I can't see myself paying for foldables, but I think they are incredibly neat. I spend a ton of time on my phone, and the idea that the screen could get much bigger really tempts!
That said, I really wonder if this could be a shark jump move. I think one of iOS app's biggest wins is that developers have a relatively narrow set of form factors to target, that making bespoke interface layouts is the obvious choice & that that really allows careful crafting. I'm overselling this case a bit, but it feels like Apple is saying: ok, now make your apps responsive. Add more. Some folks will figure out each layout nicely, but I feel like in many cases, the responsive layouts are going to be less well crafted, not have such thought out intracacies.
I love responsiveness, but it generally pushes layout complexity down, requires simpler / plainer design languages, in my view. This pushes away from bespoke careful craft, and towards mechanized systems, and there's some design loss in this push.
I am not fully convinced that a foldable is really going to be something that most will want, but I think it could find its niche. Given that from another article it seems that in the simulator it is using the iPad view it could be useful for some people.
Though, I have yet to find myself in a situation that I wanted to use an iPad and I was not already in a position to be carrying one. I use mine for work and I am already carrying a laptop, throwing in an iPad is a very small addition to my bag.
Any time I have just been out, was never a situation I felt like I needed something like an iPad. Throw in that this looks like it will be the size of a Mini vs the 13" pro that I use now, it puts it in an awkward position. And I could justify the rumored $2k cost to replace 2 devices that cost more than that combined.
It will be interesting to see how it does in practice, but also what it does to the separation of iOS and iPadOS.
More than that, it forces iPhone-only devs to get with the program and make their apps usable on larger screens too.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if next year they dissolve the iPhone/iPad distinction on the App Store altogether and maybe even remove the Catalyst toggle on the Mac App Store. If you make an iOS app, it’s also a full fledged iPadOS, macOS, and visionOS app too.
I certainly wouldn’t mind. On my Mac there are some needlessly heavy electron apps I’d swap out for their iOS counterparts in a heartbeat if that were possible, as well as some games that would run fine on macOS but their devs don’t tick the checkbox for unclear reasons.
> I wouldn’t be surprised at all if next year they dissolve the iPhone/iPad distinction on the App Store altogether
I hadn't thought about it but it makes sense and it makes me wonder how far this would reach throughout the rest of the OS. If the iPhone can fold out into an iPad Mini, will it get the rest of the iPadOS features? The iPad used to run iOS but they rebranded the version that runs on iPad to iPadOS to distinguish that it has a handful of unique features only for big screens, mainly pertaining to multitasking. But if the line is being blurred and iPhones will have big screens with multitasking, will they go back to just calling it iOS on all mobile devices?
At the very least, this is needed for iPadOS and macOS, since both have resizable windows.
I'm currently working on a responsive app in Swift and had to develop my own responsive layout system. SwiftUI simply isn't up to the task, except for one very specific, generic layout.
Reminds me of a billboard I saw where Apple was touting the alleged privacy of the iPhone with a guy wearing clothes nearly the same color as his skin. I know iPhone isn't really private, and I'd rather not have a phone that isn't repairable, but I can appreciate the clever marketing in both cases.
How about phones that you can attach one to another and have as much of a phone as you want? Buy two phones - simple foldable. 4? That's almost a tablet worth of screen estate. Want more? Only your budget is the limit. Go as far as 85" TV if you want.
i’ve been waiting a few years for iphone fold, im excited that they’re releasing it this year.
its both iphone mini (yay!! mini iphone again) and ipad mini (yay!! hueg screen for bedtime youtube) in one device presumably with a cpu powerful enough to run cyberpunk 2077. what a world :)
The software opportunity is what's interesting. Apple making an iPhone that becomes an iPad could finally make multitasking on mobile actually work. Hardware is table stakes, the UI decisions are what will matter.
I can't imagine they'd release a crappy folding thing like the Samsung, I think it's more likely to be effectively dual-screen that can be unfurled into something where the two screens are side by side.
This is the only phone I've seen people move away from iPhone to get, I know at least 3 women who switched from iPhone to android to get the folding clamshell Samsung and all love it.
The triple folding phone is interesting to me but I still am not at the point where I feel comfortable having a $2K phone. Where you can get a Motorolla with 12GB of RAM for $80
I mention RAM as Android with 4GB of ram is almost unusable.
Are you citing subsidized prices, or used prices? I can only find $80 Motorolas used or locked, e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0D323V72S and that's 4GB
12GB seems to get up into $200+, and that's still a lot of "renewed" listings.
You can find quirky little loss-leader deals here and there sometimes but I don't think you're getting 12GB of RAM for $80 on a routine basis.
Really intrigued to see what Apple's design chops brings to this form factor. I'd love more screen real estate so I can travel without a damn laptop. The big question is how thick will it be?
Wow seriously? To me it looks like a throwback to Windows 95 lightweight settings or some lightweight WM of the early 2000s like Fluxbox/OpenBox which didn't implement proper resizing to save on resources.
I think you'll be very surprised at how successful this is.
Do you remember the Microsoft prototype for a folding tablet? It would have two different apps running, and you could use the spine to pull data between them, a kind of visual clipboard.
I don't think that workflow is as important now, but having two apps open (one on each side of a device) is going to be killer, and it's something they're clearly hinting at with some of their asks for developers (and with their iPad OS).
> This is the PSOTU’s message, which states clearly and plainly: stop thinking about creating software for a specific piece of hardware. Design software to be adaptable across a range of screen sizes and aspect ratios.
I remember so many Apple developers saying this was why Apple was better than Android. The HN archives are full of such comments.
Not that I care for either company, as they both lord over our lives and limit our freedoms.
I'm 100% certain it will sell out at the release and you will have to wait few months to get it. I don't know where people get the idea that only few people will be able to afford that phone.
A bit fallacious because if you've been supporting the proper size classes API and not hardcoding assumptions about windows/orientation/etc. (as Apple has been telling you to do every WWDC for like 10 years now), there's basically 0 work to do.
Apple hasn't "invented" most things, from the personal computer, MP3 Player, or smart phone. They tend to revolutionize the things by making them work extremely well.
if by 'revolutionize', you mean 'let everybody else spend time, effort and money developing the idea, and once they've proven the market they buy an interesting company in the space with tons of patents, shut down everything they'd done before and make their interesting and take credit for the revolution, meanwhile, their new presence in the area mutes actual innovation, because they use all of the oxygen in the room'... sure, yeah, they do that... but the revolution was coming whether Apple participated or not.
Hey, if they can get the hinge working better it might improve the category at least. You'd expect Apple to do well at manufacturing for that kinda stuff
Agree, their "innovations" usually involve taking an existing concept or idea and executing it better. Hopefully they can pull that off and raise the bar for foldable electronics
Current foldables are fragile, require a built-in plastic screen protector, and have a visible crease. Apple is very unlikely to be willing to accept those compromises. We'll see, but I think their entry into the field will change things.
15 years ago, I would agree that Apple might not have been willing to accept those kinds of issues. I'm not sure about the Apple of today. That is not a slight against any Apple leadership, but I do feel that, for a variety of reasons, the level of minimum QC has notched back a bit in the pursuit of marketshare.
"hey guys remember that screen technology that came out seven years ago and has had plenty of time to mature? Well our 65 year old CEO just discovered it and has found a way to make it stratospherically more expensive than its ever been before!"
I think discussion here are missing that most people do not own a PC/laptop and if they do barely ever opens one, and not because they can't afford it, but it just didn't fit into their daily lives. This is obviously entirely different from the HN crowd.
And in that case, a folding phone is huge! Having played with one that my parent use, it's such an upgrade for reading/scrolling experience. When we all are spending so much time on the phone (that's a separate discussion, but it is the reality).
As of 2021, 78.4% of households own a laptop or desktop, compared to 85.6% with a smartphone. [1] And it's likely driven more by economics than lifestyle choices. It's 50.9% for households earning less than $25k, and 96.1% for households earning > $150k.
The reason PC purchases plummeted is not because people stopped using them, but because if you don't use your PC for high end gaming (or a tiny handful of other esoteric tasks) then one from a decade, or even more, ago will function 100% as well as a brand new one.
[1] - https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio...
Ownership isn't active usage though - My parents have their laptops (and probably 4+, since they do have retired ones stashed), but just don't use it, especially now that they retired.
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> people stopped using them,
I had many co-workers not owning a laptop outside of their work provided one.
There is a mix of a workplace permissive enough of light use (browser/mail) for personal purposes, and most services having an app that can be better than their web site (banks in particular).
Of course most people will have a laptop and just not use it for years, but there's definitely people just not buying one in the first place.
I don't know if the economic argument helps here, since you can buy 2-5 laptops for the price of a folding phone.
My mother had an iMac that we bought for her (to replace the old one that wasn't receiving security updates) that remained in a box for two years because she was afraid of the upgrade complexity. There was none. Her whole computing life was Hotmail and web surfing.
She told me she loves her iPad for web stuff. I sent her one of my old MacBook Airs because she wanted a laptop. I don't know that she ever uses it. I sent an email asking once. She didn't reply. There are two full-blown Macs in her home. They don't count for anything.
>I think discussion here are missing that most people do not own a PC/laptop and if they do barely ever opens one, and not because they can't afford it, but it just didn't fit into their daily lives
Anybody who works in an office job, employee or freelancer, (so 100s of millions in the US alone) both work with and own a PC/laptop. And that doesn't even count gamers and creatives. And many more that work blue collar jobs still own one, according to statistics. Some 16 year old might just use their smartphone, but most adults also use a laptop.
What's huge about it for someone who doesn't own a PC laptop?
Every example I've seen or tried using a fold-able was just a regular smartphone with a screen that displayed apps that looked like the app doesn't fit on the phone very well. The few that did fit didn't seem to provide any real advantage.
That and the fold-able users I know all run into reliability issues with screens breaking over time.
For me, it's entirely ended my tablet use, and now rarely reach for a laptop. I still have a desktop with two large screens, but I don't feel a need for anything in between any more.
The screen is big enough for me that given it's always in my pocket it's far more convenient to grab my phone than getting up to grab my tablet or laptop.
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With my foldable, I find that I hardly use the full display and just use the main screen.
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That would be an Android issue - Android tablets have the same issues. An iPhone foldable will have a much more cohesive ecosystem just like the iPad.
I thought exactly this until I used it for >2 hours.
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> I think discussion here are missing that most people do not own a PC/laptop and if they do barely ever opens one, and not because they can't afford it, but it just didn't fit into their daily lives. This is obviously entirely different from the HN crowd.
This isn’t my experience. In our house: I’m a software engineer, and our 13yo son writes C++ code as a hobby, so of course we both have laptops and desktops. But my wife, and our 8 year old daughter, both have laptops too, and use them regularly, despite not being remotely technical; our daughter mainly uses her laptop for games-she also has a tablet and a Nintendo Switch, but for many games (The Sims, Minecraft, Roblox) she prefers her laptop; my wife plays The Sims too, but she also prefers a laptop to a phone or tablet for sending emails and general web browsing.
Similarly my dad (a retired pharmaceutical company executive) is a lot less technical than he used to be (he hasn’t kept up to date and maybe some of these things get harder with advanced age), but he also prefers his laptop for some tasks (e.g. email, internet banking) despite also being a regular phone and tablet user
To be fair, where this applies is specific countries outside the US, not just outside tech. Very few Americans own a smartphone and not a computer, and they are mostly poor and not in the market for an ultra-luxury phone. You’re describing affluent counties that became so recently, like China, South Korea, and Japan, and indeed that’s where foldables are currently doing well.
Especially in asian countries where PC penetration is lower.
Exactly. Considering you could buy an iPhone and a MacBook Neo for roughly the same cost … will be very interesting to see this device in action. Can iOS replace MacOS for a user that doesn’t need a local Xcode? Can I spend $2k for the device I use in my pocket and on my desk… and put the rest of my money into cloud/server infrastructure if I have that need?
I worked a corporate job for 6yrs off an iPad Pro.
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Yeah, to support this point I'd also like to point that mobile gaming is larger market than both PC and console gaming.
A folding phone basically turns into a smallish tablet. That may have an attraction to some people, but even fewer people own or want a tablet than own or want a PC. And the people who do want tablets already have a better one than what a gimmicky folding phone can give them.
I use my foldable as a phone until I want to see things bigger.
Pretty straight forward to make it bigger, with a foldable.
I do have a laptop, and two large screens for my desktop, and my foldable is still a massive upgrade. I haven't used my tablet since I got it. I use my phone for things I'd often grab my laptop for etc.
I hardly use the thing closed, even for things I easily could.
> On the other side of the pond, Android foldable owners have spent seven years discovering which of their apps work and which ones don’t.
Funny how this thing isn't even announced yet and the fanpeople are already glazing Apple over it :p
I daily a Surface Duo 2 as my car-relegated phone, running Android 12 (which I kinda regret upgrading from 10) and loaded with offline maps and plenty of cached music, and it has never been an issue when an app doesn't gracefully handle being stretched across both panes. Some of them aren't ideal to use that way with the bezel in the middle if they put interactable UI elements there, which is what the SDK support update is surely about, but I have never ever seen an app fail to work like this blurb is worded to claim.
There's a toggle in the application manager for whether or not an app should open dual-pane, and single-pane is the default anyway because why wouldn't one want to multitask?
I have a Pixel Fold and similar experience - some minor nuisances but not come across anything that doesn't work. The biggest nuisance is apps restarting when switching from the front screen to the big screen.
Some weird OS experiences with my Fold recently.. the bottom of the home screen shortcut bar is appearing over apps, unexpectedly. Namely Monarch Money
> The hardware picture has been clear for months. The iPhone Ultra, the apparent name for this new form factor iPhone, is a book-style foldable, reportedly featuring a 7.7- to 7.8-inch inner display and a 5.3- to 5.5-inch cover screen, unfolding to a 4:3 ratio closer to an iPad mini than a widescreen display.
Excellent. Now that you have a supply chain for small screens again, please use that same cover screen to make an updated mini phone! I've sat in patient silence waiting for this exact moment!
Book style, yeah that's the best aspect ratio vs portrait sized foldable. Wider is better for video without rotation need
I've been dailying a pixel fold 9 pro for a while now and love the thing. Seeing Apple finally join in is exciting as heck. I wouldn't hold your breath for a non visible crease though, nor for it to necessarily be class leading in its screen tech. I doubt any of it matters though, the Pixel Folds aren't exactly class leading in these regards either and the fold is just not a concern at all once you're using it. it's practically invisible from head on, and the "plastic screen protector" worries are really not an issue either. The durability of the inner screen is actually much better than you'd expect since it spends most of its pocketed life protected from external scratches. Mines still in great shape, even though I do not use a case nor any other form of protector.
Where apple has a significant opportunity here is the software side though. Google unfortunately doesn't seem to be too interested in exploring UI concepts with the Fold, leaving that to OnePlus and Samsung, both of which have imo better multitasking experiences than the Pixel Fold. Apple making an iPhone that becomes an iPad would probably be enough for them to win significant marketshare, but I hope they use this opportunity to do some interesting things with UI beyond what the iPad can do.
My Oppo Find N6 has a near invisible crease. Technology has come a long way and Chinese manufacturers are leading in components selection (best camera sensors and lenses, best silicon-carbon battery tech, good amount of memory, newest SoCs etc) with Google, Apple and Samsung catching up.
https://www.oppo.com/en/smartphones/series-find-n/find-n6/
>pixel
>I do not use a case
I have a Pixel 8a, and I have to use a case for it, because it appears to be designed to be as slippery as possible. Every edge is round and there's nothing to grip - it feels like an aluminium/glass bar of wet soap.
Recently went from an 8 to a 10 pro fold
The 10 feels like it should be more slippery, but for some reason, it isn't. It stays stuck in your hand like glue, despite the back feeling like another glass screen. Something special in is coating
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I have a 9 pro and it was very slippery at first. I put it face down on a slanted table and it slid right off once.
Anyway, I took the case off after a while. It's not new anymore. Your mileage may vary, but despite dropping it a bunch, it hasn't shattered and the edge only shows some slight marks from falling.
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$9 cases on Amazon can be good, using one now on my Pixel Fold 2023 model.. faux leather.
I instead see these sort of things (add the AppleVision Pro as well) as Apple feeling obliged to respond to "the public" (shareholders?).
"Samsung has this cool foldable phone—they seem to be taking the design mantle away from Apple these days."
"I hear this VR thing is the future of computing. Why isn't Apple in this space?"
I suspect even in the Jobs-era you might point to the iPad as Apple being pressured into responding with a product in the tablet space.
The Apple Watch a reaction to the Pebble?
Once the little square iPod Nano existed a watch was inevitable -
https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/a-new-era-for-design
I don't believe it's really that, but the fact that Apple 1) is profitable 2) holds a lot of cash, and 3) has a proven capability to execute new products.
So by not attempting to enter market niches, they could be potentially leaving a lot of money on the table, while the downside of the product failing to get traction doesn't really kill them.
> I hear this VR thing is the future of computing. Why isn't Apple in this space?
Apple released the Vision Pro, which is AR
I think that's the point the OP is making...
It is MR, it supports both.
How timely, I'm writing this from a Pixel 10 Pro Fold I bought in January.
Last night I opened it to find the inside screen having dead pixels in the center by the bend.
I love foldable phones. I use it all the time in both modes, but now I'm currently procrastinating looking up my best buy warranty plan specifics.
For a small percentage of mobile superusers, I really do believe foldables are the future. Having the ability to use desktop mode by default, or multitask, is huge.
I've gone all the way around and came back. The Samsung Fold was awesome and convenient. But carrying an ipad mini and a phone is not that big a deal. It's quite nice that the ipad mini does not have whatsapp or SMS plugged into it, so I can use it exclusively for reading books or playing music.
The cost of the iPad Mini + my phone was like $600 and the folds - even the 6th gen and above - are super unreliable, so right now that seems like the best play.
It depends I guess. I really like my foldable. Got it for 500€ on a special deal.
It's really nice to have a tablet always with you. I live in a warm country so I don't usually wear a coat or a big bag.
Also, on android there's really no good small tablets. They're all 10" and bigger.
> But carrying an ipad mini and a phone is not that big a deal.
For you maybe, but for most it is, or we'd all be doing it.
Or not. Some of us are okay with phones the size they are so we are not tempted to stare at them even more.
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Foldables are a niche market, so that's not a good argument.
> It's quite nice that the ipad mini does not have whatsapp or SMS plugged into it, so I can use it exclusively for reading books or playing music.
Both a phone and a tablet can come with WhatsApp, it's a user choice whether they are there and the frequency of checking them. Global muting the apps is also an option.
I understand your point, but it is a point mitigated by user intervention. Now, if we want to say reading on a bigger screen than a phone is a better user experience, I'm on board with that.
It is a pain to carry an iPad and a phone if you are walking. You need either large pockets or a handbag. If it is warm then you don't want either,
those folding phones are permanently bulging and enormous.
I feel like I'm the only person on earth sometimes who just wants the phone to be small so it's easy to carry and use one-handed.
I want to live life when I'm out and about, the phone I have is the heaviest thing I am constantly carrying.
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The iPad Mini is such an underrated device. For years they have been my primary computing device. The form factor is so close to a paperback book that it's easy to carry with you. Heck, it even fits in the front pocket of my Dockers. Toss in in the front compartment of my backpack.
A big thing about the form factor is the perception. If you are in a meeting and pull out a full size iPad or your laptop to look something up, it certainly feels different than using your mini. Same at a restaurant.
At the park with the dog I can carry it like a paperback, sit on the grass and read. It's perfect for everything except phone calls.
iPad mini is awesome for reading however, it took forever until Apple powered it up.
Personally, as someone being used to the Motorola Razor foldable, which happened to present back then. It was really good and cool as well. I hated the ever smaller getting Ericson smartphones.
I am looking forward to Apple's copy of Samsungs foldable smartphones. After all, I don't want to carry an iPhone as well as an iPad mini around with me.
And I see the foldable more as a replacement for the iPhone ultra max phones. No matter how large the screensize they have, they never beat the iPad mini on readability, even being stuck with the old one for many years.
> But carrying an ipad mini and a phone is not that big a deal
I did this way back when the first iPad mini was released, and it's not bad.
But these days, the big iPhone is 7 inches to the iPad mini's 8 inches... the phone is big enough for most iPad mini use cases
The thing I like about the iPad Mini is that it's an optional carry. I don't need an 8" device every time I leave the house. And maybe that's going to be the appeal of the foldable.
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> 7 inches to the iPad mini's 8 inches
These numbers don't correspond to the screen size though
How do you carry your iPad mini? Does it fit in pockets?
It fits in a front pocket if you wear Dockers or equivalent, which have notoriously large pockets. It fits well in the front of a backpack. It's most akin to a slightly wide paperback book.
I have a small shoulder bag which also holds wet wipes, a bottle of water, raincoat in case it rains etc... can't really go back to just using my pockets now.
> It's quite nice that the ipad mini does not have whatsapp or SMS plugged into it, so I can use it exclusively for reading books or playing music.
Eh, iOS has profiles that let you disable whatever apps you wish to. Better than a whole other piece of hardware, IMO
Not a fan of foldables, if I am honest. Just a personal opinion. I do not like the it feels in the pocket bc the device needs to double its thickness when folding over.
When a mobile device manufacturer (samsung, hauwei, now apple) makes a foldable, I get the impression they're running out of ideas with the "slate" form factor and are trying to stimulate sales.
Personally, I would want that R&D spend and innovation to go to more sustainable materials, longer lasting devices, and easily repairable parts to extend the devices useful life.
You and me both, but I also recognize others disagree so ultimately, we'll see what the market decides.
Apple's annual gross profit was $195B last year against an R&D budget of around $35B. So, they've got more than enough spare change to throw around. I'm sure whatever they're spending on foldables isn't impairing them financially in any way.
I'm more concerned for what it means for focus, fragmented ecosystems, user experience, etc.
From Jobs: "People think focus means saying yes to the thing you've got to focus on. But that's not what it means at all. It means saying no to the hundred other good ideas that there are. You have to pick carefully. I'm actually as proud of many of the things we haven't done as the things we have done."
> we'll see what the market decides
The market && apple's choice of either pricing it aggressively or pricing it so that nobody can afford it. Both have equal weighting here.
The Z fold has succeeded enough that I see it out and about even outside tech-circles. Oppo and Google have had multiple generations of well-recieved folables too, despite not nearly having the marketing machine of someone like Apple.
The new Samsung fold 7s while folded are less than a mm thicker than an iPhone 17.
And it feels like a regular phone when folded. Not noticeably thick at all.
Some folks just have to complain for the sake of complaining, must give them a little dopamine hit or something.
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But its a samsung. Deal breaker.
> When a mobile device manufacturer [...] are trying to stimulate sales
> more sustainable materials, longer lasting devices, and easily repairable parts to extend the devices useful life
What they are doing, like all for-profit companies, is focusing on profits, for better or worse.
What you are suggesting (and what I'd like to) directly works against the goal of making more profits, literally all of those things will lead to less income for them.
I also want those things, but realistically, because of the economic systems we have, those things will never be the focus, because the market doesn't reward those things, and doesn't seem likely that'll change either.
I don't know what the solution is either, status quo simply sucks, with no escape in sight. Seems to be getting worse in fact.
The solution is legislation and regulation.
In a capitalist system, those are the only ways to get for-profit companies to care about externalities (which is what sustainability and longevity address).
It's definitely not due to running out of ideas. I have a Galaxy Fold and love it. I owned it for about two months before my wife went out and bought one for herself. And everywhere I go people want to look at it and play with it - quite remarkable.
I haven't encountered any issues with apps not supporting the wider aspect ratio. It's one of those cases in which Android's up-front investment in more flexible software paid off. Android apps were harder to write up front because they had to support resizable layouts from the get go, but by the time stuff like foldables were introduced the software library was already ready for it all.
Think it'll last 5 years? I don't strongly care one way or the other about the form factor, but if it's more expensive, less durable, and has a worse camera, then I'm perfectly happy to have a one-piece phone.
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Electric car drivers have range anxiety, and I assume foldable phone users have fold anxiety. Do the OS integrate some counter versus Mean Folds to Failure?
Tbh I think the microsoft neo (or was it the duo?) was the "best" - have 2 (or more) screens but put them on a hinge. You can get one big screen with whatever panel quality you like (hell, make it a cheap or transflective if you want), or you get a smaller screen if you wish.
There's a reason the Asus Duo is so much cheaper than the ThinkPad Fold X1 and all other OLED "folding" screen devices.
> Personally, I would want that R&D spend and innovation to go to more sustainable materials, longer lasting devices, and easily repairable parts to extend the devices useful life.
Apple probably leads the industry in sustainability–the MacBook is 60% recycled material.
They’ve been working for years to be carbon neutral by 2030.
Details at https://www.apple.com/environment/
The issue with repairability is always the conflict between water resistance, thickness and feel vs the compromises to that needed to make removable batteries or back cases work. There are ways around it but the vast majority of the market prefers solid near glued together phones so that's what companies make.
> I get the impression they're running out of ideas with the "slate" form factor and are trying to stimulate sales.
I think we've just reached the local maximum of the phone design and adding folding gives two different branches to go down: 1) same size screen unfolded but smaller folded size or 2) folded with an external screen roughly the same size as a normal phone today but it expands to a much larger one unfolded. We'd kind of reached the peak size that people can reasonably pocket so option 2 allows for even bigger screens for people willing to pay without having to have a second device (something like a tablet).
The folds do add functionality and I think there's an impulse that leads people to say they don't see the point of something just because they're not interested in it personally.
> the vast majority of the market prefers solid near glued together phones so that's what companies make.
the vast majority of companies only make solid near-glued together phones, so that is all anyone buys.
if apple made a phone with replaceable batteries with a bit more thickness and some compromises on water resistance vs. cost, you'd actually see the consumer preferences play out.
> The folds do add functionality and I think there's an impulse that leads people to say they don't see the point of something just because they're not interested in it personally.
you're going to have to go through some real mental contortions to support foldable phones as consumer choice while treating repairability/replaceability as inherently not worth it because you like slim designs.
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> the compromises to that needed to make removable batteries or back cases work
Seems like they are going to have to make that compromise, at least in the EU market. User-replaceable batteries from 2027 onwards, unless they are willing to quit the market (probably still requiring screwdrivers, but hey, its something)
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Or, alternatively, they feel like they finally cracked the code and think they can do it better. That's when Apple finally enters a market.
Consider how much money they put in to building a car to cancel it when they decided they couldn't, in fact, do it better. I'm sure there are hundreds - maybe thousands - of failed prototypes along the way.
They will be using a Samsung screen, so just no. Stop repeating this false trope. Didn't happen with the vision pro, and won't happen here.
Opposite opinion. I have the Huawei trifold, and it's by far my favorite phone I've ever used. I'm typing this on that phone right now, half-unfolded to square mode.
I don't care that it is a few mm thicker than other phones when it's in my pocket. It's so much better than a regular phone for everything from reading books to writing email to watching YouTube, and it's also a slightly thicker regular phone. It also has a pretty good UI for moving apps to side-by-side mode, which I use so often that I'm 100% sure I will never go back to a regular phone.
I think it's because they're running out of ideas too BUT the current generations of foldables (galaxy fold 7 for example) are essentially indistinguishable from non folding phones when closed. Yes, that means they could have made a thinner phone over all - the Galaxy Fold is the same thickness as the iPhone 17 pro max but both are twice as thick as the air - but I think consumers have gotten use to thick heavy phones - its why the SE and air don't sell as well IMO
A lot of the iPhone design decisions have generally had the nature of something I didn't like that some market research must have shown to be in demand. And so the iPhones have kept getting bigger, even though I've held on to my 4, 5S, and SE's for dear life.
People seem to want them, so Apple end up selling them. We're probably in the minority, and I can't fault Apple for not turning down the money.
Although I do wonder how the hell cases and screen protectors work for foldables.
I know people who put up with Android because they want a foldable phone, to be able to read documents more easily without carrying two devices. They're clearly not for everyone, but the relative sales of Pro vs Air or Mini suggest that these will be more popular than this suggests.
iPhone useful life is already pretty great. I'm using one regularly from 2020 (as a work device) - better than any laptop I've ever owned including classic-era Thinkpads have lasted as a daily driver.
Try the RAZR style folding phones. It trades length for thickness which is a godsend for me. I hate how unpocketable phones has been ever since like 10 years ago.
Me neither, but I see a lot of foldables in the wild and I'm far from any tech hotspots, like the Bay Area and Austin.
I want a foldable to make the device smaller in my pocket. Like an iPhone Air that could fold in half like a fliphone.
That is likely what it will be. The iPhone Air was probably just a test to see if all the super-thin components could work. Now they'll throw a hinge in the middle and a screen on the back. It'll end up being 2 or 3mm thicker, because of the bonus screen.
I was hoping for a small phone as well since I’ve read rumours about the display being 5.3in when folded. However it also said 7.8in unfolded, which implies 4.1in × 3.3in folded… quite big and squarish.
You mean like a Galaxy Flip?
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I guess a foldable phone that unfolds to be that large kind of competes/kills the market for iPad, so this kind of user probably expects to store the device in a bag instead of pocket, and use bluetooth / smartwatch / siri to interact hands free instead of pulling the phone out all the time.
The iPad lineup has forked into two classes that seem to be drifting in the direction of “alternative laptop” or “portable television” respectively. A big folding phone would maybe eat into that second case somewhat, but I still view it as a distinct specialization. The difference would probably be clearer if they set up iPadOS to be viable as a shared multi-user/family device instead of assuming it must have a single owner.
not necessarily, some foldables are almost as thin as a usual phone even when folded. But as much as I like flip phones aesthetics, I do agree there lot of other meaningful areas where the R&D spend is actually needed
My two favorite Apple products are the iPhone Mini and the iPad Mini. This foldable iPhone looks like it might give me both?
Personally, I think it's nice that companies make products that appeal to different kinds of people.
I just want to be able to use my apple pencil in my phone :(
The last two Apple products I purchased for myself were:
- OPENSTEP 4.2 --- for use on a NeXT Cube w/ a Wacom ArtZ tablet
- Newton MessagePad
I've been waiting for Apple to make a product which I want to use since the Newton was shut down, making do w/ a succession of Windows tablets and a Wacom One display attached to my MacBook, and a Kindle Scribe (recently upgraded to a Coloursoft), and a Galaxy Note 10+ --- being able to use the same stylus on all of my devices is quite nice.
Perhaps Apple is also running out of ideas.
Their ideas have rarely been about form-factors or product categories (every knew what a tablet was before the iPad).
To be fair, they ran out of ideas in 2010, if not before.
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> Personally, I would want that R&D spend and innovation to go to more sustainable materials, longer lasting devices, and easily repairable parts to extend the devices useful life.
Does the broad market care about sustainable materials? What does that even mean? Almost no one buys something because of sustainable.
For longer lasting devices, people like buying new phones. The iPhone has pretty much not changed in the last 5 years. People just like buying the new and best
Same thing w/ repairable parts. People just like buying new things. And it's not a conspiracy theory, it's just observed behavior.
So I'm glad they're trying something, because as much as you would like these other things, the broader market of consumers don't care. Yes profits are a useful proxy for value people place on your activities. Not perfect but in the long run if you provide a shitty experience you're likely to lose.
I want a headphone jack.
The purpose of a foldable is to reduce the lifespan of a device, and therefore sell more devices
Apple's MO has never been to make junk that breaks. They're as valuable as they are largely because of their reputation for high quality products.
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Careful what you wish for. Making devices easily repairable increases thickness.
Not neccesarily: https://www.ifixit.com/News/113171/iphone-air-teardown
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> bc the device needs to double its thickness
Considering how many people are dailying >6.8 inch phones (already massive in the average sized pocket), complaining about a thickness of 11mm* is just small brain behavior. I guarantee the weight is what you're noticing more than the thickness.
As someone who's into foldables but doesn't use one, the benefits are very real, especially if you read a lot of articles/blogs. Only reason I'm not using one is I can't afford the ones I want. How is a smaller phone, that's ideal for 1-handed use while having an expansive screen available at any moment, "running out of ideas"??? I like large screens, and I like being able to fit it in a small chassis. That's all it is.
* Samsung, Oppo, and Google's currently available foldables are all under 11mm
A foldable iPhone will definitely solve one of the biggest problems at Apple. Foldable phones won't last 5-10 years. I can see Apple making all iPhone offerings foldable down the road
Are they really having any issue getting people to upgrade? At least here in Canada, carriers harass everyone to upgrade with deals where you can get a new phone for $0 once your contract is up to keep you renewing your contract.
My non-techie parents pretty much always get the latest non-Pro iPhone every couple years because their carrier calls them and practically begs them to take a new phone.
It's extremely rare to see anyone with a phone older than like 4 years.
Do you actually know how many people are holding onto their iPhones for 5 to 10 years? I would bet it’s not that many.
For me at least the screen size isn’t the limiting factor the lack of a keyboard is. I don’t know why I’d choose this device over a Neo or Air + non-folding phone.
You can pair a Bluetooth keyboard to any iPhone or iPad.
This, for instance, combines a battery and compact physical kb https://www.clicks.tech/products/powerkeyboard
Mentions of the resizable iOS apps seem to signal a desktop dock mode, which ties into your concern.
We know Apple is bringing a folding iPhone through manufacturing leaks. A desktop mode is less likely to be leaked, since it would be mostly software and (a lot) less reliant on third parties.
> a desktop dock mode
This needs to come to ALL iPhones. You plug in a usb c cable to your monitor and bang, iPad Neo.
But Apple being Apple will software block it...
I doubt it (though I would love this as well). FTA:
> A third discovery was arguably more specific: a new system key that returns the total count of *built-in* displays on a device
(emphasis added)
I love the little showmanship touches Apple does like this. Seeing a trillion dollar company going "wink wink nudge nudge" is just funny.
I don't think I get foldable phones. When is the extra space necessary? I mean most of them turn from a somewhat 9:16 aspect ratio to 1:1. You don't earn anything in space to consume media content. The only real improvement might be for multitasking?
You get more to see.
Maps are too narrow on phones.
Books also are easier to read.
The foldable iPhone will have an aspect ratio very close to 3:2 for the outer display (like the original iPhone) and of 1.41:1 (between 3:2 and 4:3) for the inner display (similar to an iPad).
Multitasking would be huge. One reason I hate doing anything "real" on my phone is because I can't see more than one thing at a time.
I mean you can see more at once but now your typing experience is worse. I have an iPad and it's by far my least productive device unless it's connected to a physical keyboard. Typing on a giant touchscreen is so much more tedious than my phone's screen.
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You can read more Hacker News comments per screen without having to scroll.
Running two full size apps at once is pretty nice. Text conversation and website, things like that. Or copying and pasting credentials out of a password manager
Foldables are life changing - everyone I know who's got one, doesn't go back.
It's all the benefits of a tablet with the weight/thickness of a cell.
Example: maps shows both the map and listing detail.
Example: messaging/email apps show the message/channel list and the current message
Example: virtual keyboard has plenty of space for punctuation, emojis, etc.
Example: games and multimedia are perfectly pleasant to view, even for hours.
Example: I used the remote-control app to take photos from my Sony and Fuji cameras, and the live preview was large enough to easily check for tack-sharpness, which is hard even in the camera viewfinder.
Anecdotally, everyone I've seen with a foldable has gone back.
Everyone I know over 70 would love something that works like a phone when folded but like a tablet unfolded -- big enough for text to be big, small enough to carry, and without fiddly interface -- and at a reasonable price for those anchored in 1980 prices.
(If those under 17 got attached to foldables, it would be an enduring franchise.)
For those of us in between, I'd love it if my foldable when unfolded were finally the OS of choice - iPadOS or iOS or even macOS. It would be the hub for hub-and-spoke devices...
It's an impossible ask, but perhaps....
Won't happen anytime soon because the smartphone manufacturers have decided that folding is a flagship phone feature with a flagship price tag attached.
I'm still waiting for a large folding phone with no/minimal outer display and with all other features cost reduced for half the price of the flagship folding phones.
The OS of choice may be an “impossible” ask from Apple. However with the Neo running on the A18 I don’t think we’re far from seeing something along those lines.
The thing I liked most about the Samsung Galaxy Z Fold 4 I had for a while was that I met a lot of interesting people because of it.
It broke like four times under warranty because the crease got gummed up with their glue strips in the summer or it got brittle when I travelled to Greenland because of the cold in the winter, it felt uncomfortable and often moved in the pocket you put it into in a way that would annoy you every time you sat down somewhere.
But once you pull it out, something magical happens. Foldables are still one of those items you will rarely see in the wild, and it peaks the curiosity of people in a way that will make them come over and ask questions.
You see them touch it really carefully and open it really, really slowly because they are afraid they might break it, and suddenly you have this magical, foldable screen right in front of you that turns this heavy slab into a form factor known by anyone who ever held a book in their life.
When it snaps open or shut with the satisfying noise and haptic feedback, it makes them genuinely happy and smile, and watching different people having the same experience over and over again is kind of satisfying and in a way justified the price for me alone.
I am sure the Apple foldable will have its downsides and is heavily overpriced, and if you buy it in the EU, you won’t be able to use half the features, but I am still going to get one because I will have a lot of joy watching people interact with new technology for the first time when I travel, and I love listening to how they think it could improve their life or how and for what they would get one themselves.
> stop thinking about creating software for a specific piece of hardware. Design software to be adaptable across a range of screen sizes and aspect ratios
This is right, of course, and pretty obvious I think. But a part of me also thinks that we're still not good at it (or are not good at it anymore). At the very least, the tradeoff is a huge increase in UI complexity. It was so, so easy to design UIs with Hypercard when you knew it was going to run on a 512×342 display.
> Starting price reportedly around $2,000.
I'll guess it won't be a Vision Pro level disaster, but most people will skip this device unless the price drops substantially.
It'll be backordered for moooonths. They won't be able to make enough to meet the demand it'll get.
A lot of people said the same thing about Vision Pro. The only way to actually know is to wait.
That’s the same MSRP as the Samsung foldable.
That's not exactly flying off the shelves. To be honest I'm not even sure if Samsung is making any money on the entire foldable lineup.
I’m old enough to remember when everyone said the original iPhone would flop because it was too expensive…
I can't see myself paying for foldables, but I think they are incredibly neat. I spend a ton of time on my phone, and the idea that the screen could get much bigger really tempts!
That said, I really wonder if this could be a shark jump move. I think one of iOS app's biggest wins is that developers have a relatively narrow set of form factors to target, that making bespoke interface layouts is the obvious choice & that that really allows careful crafting. I'm overselling this case a bit, but it feels like Apple is saying: ok, now make your apps responsive. Add more. Some folks will figure out each layout nicely, but I feel like in many cases, the responsive layouts are going to be less well crafted, not have such thought out intracacies.
I love responsiveness, but it generally pushes layout complexity down, requires simpler / plainer design languages, in my view. This pushes away from bespoke careful craft, and towards mechanized systems, and there's some design loss in this push.
I am not fully convinced that a foldable is really going to be something that most will want, but I think it could find its niche. Given that from another article it seems that in the simulator it is using the iPad view it could be useful for some people.
Though, I have yet to find myself in a situation that I wanted to use an iPad and I was not already in a position to be carrying one. I use mine for work and I am already carrying a laptop, throwing in an iPad is a very small addition to my bag.
Any time I have just been out, was never a situation I felt like I needed something like an iPad. Throw in that this looks like it will be the size of a Mini vs the 13" pro that I use now, it puts it in an awkward position. And I could justify the rumored $2k cost to replace 2 devices that cost more than that combined.
It will be interesting to see how it does in practice, but also what it does to the separation of iOS and iPadOS.
Besides the new form factor, resizable apps are also meant to further bridge the gap between macOS and iOS right?
More than that, it forces iPhone-only devs to get with the program and make their apps usable on larger screens too.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if next year they dissolve the iPhone/iPad distinction on the App Store altogether and maybe even remove the Catalyst toggle on the Mac App Store. If you make an iOS app, it’s also a full fledged iPadOS, macOS, and visionOS app too.
I certainly wouldn’t mind. On my Mac there are some needlessly heavy electron apps I’d swap out for their iOS counterparts in a heartbeat if that were possible, as well as some games that would run fine on macOS but their devs don’t tick the checkbox for unclear reasons.
> I wouldn’t be surprised at all if next year they dissolve the iPhone/iPad distinction on the App Store altogether
I hadn't thought about it but it makes sense and it makes me wonder how far this would reach throughout the rest of the OS. If the iPhone can fold out into an iPad Mini, will it get the rest of the iPadOS features? The iPad used to run iOS but they rebranded the version that runs on iPad to iPadOS to distinguish that it has a handful of unique features only for big screens, mainly pertaining to multitasking. But if the line is being blurred and iPhones will have big screens with multitasking, will they go back to just calling it iOS on all mobile devices?
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At the very least, this is needed for iPadOS and macOS, since both have resizable windows.
I'm currently working on a responsive app in Swift and had to develop my own responsive layout system. SwiftUI simply isn't up to the task, except for one very specific, generic layout.
I'd guess that they're meant to bridge the gap between iOS and iPadOS, if anything.
Also, one of the session videos illustrated the content with an app for keeping track of one's fleet of paper airplanes.
And another was about origami.
I wonder how they'll address the crease.
My guess is one of two ways. Not address it at all. Or tell you that you don't see what you really see.
They'll likely use what Samsung showcased at CES in January (https://www.sammobile.com/news/samsung-crease-less-foldable-...), or something very close to it.
I think Oppo is the first to visibly eliminate the crease with their Find N6.
https://www.pcmag.com/news/i-tried-oppos-latest-foldable-pho...
Why would they bring attention to it at all?
What company has ever highlighted the crease in their foldable for any reason other than to say it's improved from the previous year?
Huawei's crease is virtually invisible.
Don’t you think that’s the first thing they would look at before green light?
> Or tell you that you don't see what you really see.
?
iPhone Dynamic Crease (tm)
Reminds me of a billboard I saw where Apple was touting the alleged privacy of the iPhone with a guy wearing clothes nearly the same color as his skin. I know iPhone isn't really private, and I'd rather not have a phone that isn't repairable, but I can appreciate the clever marketing in both cases.
How about phones that you can attach one to another and have as much of a phone as you want? Buy two phones - simple foldable. 4? That's almost a tablet worth of screen estate. Want more? Only your budget is the limit. Go as far as 85" TV if you want.
i’ve been waiting a few years for iphone fold, im excited that they’re releasing it this year.
its both iphone mini (yay!! mini iphone again) and ipad mini (yay!! hueg screen for bedtime youtube) in one device presumably with a cpu powerful enough to run cyberpunk 2077. what a world :)
Holy mother of clickbait titles.
I think OP might want to change title of article:
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
It's a pretty good homographic pun, honestly
Agreed. The content is not what I was expecting to read.
The software opportunity is what's interesting. Apple making an iPhone that becomes an iPad could finally make multitasking on mobile actually work. Hardware is table stakes, the UI decisions are what will matter.
I can't imagine they'd release a crappy folding thing like the Samsung, I think it's more likely to be effectively dual-screen that can be unfurled into something where the two screens are side by side.
> a crappy folding thing like the Samsung
This is the only phone I've seen people move away from iPhone to get, I know at least 3 women who switched from iPhone to android to get the folding clamshell Samsung and all love it.
The triple folding phone is interesting to me but I still am not at the point where I feel comfortable having a $2K phone. Where you can get a Motorolla with 12GB of RAM for $80
I mention RAM as Android with 4GB of ram is almost unusable.
Are you citing subsidized prices, or used prices? I can only find $80 Motorolas used or locked, e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0D323V72S and that's 4GB
12GB seems to get up into $200+, and that's still a lot of "renewed" listings.
You can find quirky little loss-leader deals here and there sometimes but I don't think you're getting 12GB of RAM for $80 on a routine basis.
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It would be very funny if Apple's next innovative flagship product is a Surface Duo
Really intrigued to see what Apple's design chops brings to this form factor. I'd love more screen real estate so I can travel without a damn laptop. The big question is how thick will it be?
Seeing this literally after my foldable full on broke through the axle after not even half a year makes me concerned for Apple
An apple foldable phone would be the first phone I bought apple care for.
Is that blurry mess on the video seriously how resizing works on iOS or is it just a POC made by some dev?
That is how window resizing on iOS 27 apps streamed to macOS 27 works right now in the first beta, I reckon it won't change.
It gives me a headache. How could anyone look at it and think it doesn't need to change?
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Wow seriously? To me it looks like a throwback to Windows 95 lightweight settings or some lightweight WM of the early 2000s like Fluxbox/OpenBox which didn't implement proper resizing to save on resources.
This will be really cool. iPhone really need change. All versions have same form factor for so long now
I'm happy they finally stop supporting Intel macs as of macOS 27
Foldable gets zero interest from me.
Apple foldable is -100 interest.
WWDC = Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference.
can't be only me who thought apple is contributing to folding@home and not a foldable iPhone.
I don’t quite understand this new product strategy.
I usually am a pro Apple consumer but how many high end users actually want this form factor?
I think you'll be very surprised at how successful this is.
Do you remember the Microsoft prototype for a folding tablet? It would have two different apps running, and you could use the spine to pull data between them, a kind of visual clipboard.
I don't think that workflow is as important now, but having two apps open (one on each side of a device) is going to be killer, and it's something they're clearly hinting at with some of their asks for developers (and with their iPad OS).
> This is the PSOTU’s message, which states clearly and plainly: stop thinking about creating software for a specific piece of hardware. Design software to be adaptable across a range of screen sizes and aspect ratios.
I remember so many Apple developers saying this was why Apple was better than Android. The HN archives are full of such comments.
Not that I care for either company, as they both lord over our lives and limit our freedoms.
foldable screen = new recurring revenue stream
"Please do a bunch of work to support a folding phone model only a few people will be able to afford"
I'm 100% certain it will sell out at the release and you will have to wait few months to get it. I don't know where people get the idea that only few people will be able to afford that phone.
The idea that most people can’t afford a $2,000 phone?
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A bit fallacious because if you've been supporting the proper size classes API and not hardcoding assumptions about windows/orientation/etc. (as Apple has been telling you to do every WWDC for like 10 years now), there's basically 0 work to do.
Can we update the title for a bit more clarity?
Maybe like
WWDC 2026: Platform sample app hints at future foldable
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Peak Apple "innovation" incoming!
Apple hasn't "invented" most things, from the personal computer, MP3 Player, or smart phone. They tend to revolutionize the things by making them work extremely well.
if by 'revolutionize', you mean 'let everybody else spend time, effort and money developing the idea, and once they've proven the market they buy an interesting company in the space with tons of patents, shut down everything they'd done before and make their interesting and take credit for the revolution, meanwhile, their new presence in the area mutes actual innovation, because they use all of the oxygen in the room'... sure, yeah, they do that... but the revolution was coming whether Apple participated or not.
Apple is great at winning capitalism.
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Hey, if they can get the hinge working better it might improve the category at least. You'd expect Apple to do well at manufacturing for that kinda stuff
Agree, their "innovations" usually involve taking an existing concept or idea and executing it better. Hopefully they can pull that off and raise the bar for foldable electronics
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folding butterfly keyboard on a folding phone would be a real comeback.
Current foldables are fragile, require a built-in plastic screen protector, and have a visible crease. Apple is very unlikely to be willing to accept those compromises. We'll see, but I think their entry into the field will change things.
15 years ago, I would agree that Apple might not have been willing to accept those kinds of issues. I'm not sure about the Apple of today. That is not a slight against any Apple leadership, but I do feel that, for a variety of reasons, the level of minimum QC has notched back a bit in the pursuit of marketshare.
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"hey guys remember that screen technology that came out seven years ago and has had plenty of time to mature? Well our 65 year old CEO just discovered it and has found a way to make it stratospherically more expensive than its ever been before!"