Comment by csallen
3 months ago
> I would argue it's not a real value if you are not willing to lose something in order to hold on to it. It is admirable to want to do the right thing when you can get away with doing the wrong thing. It is only a true value if you are willing to do the right thing when you cannot get away with doing the right thing.
I don't think it's that simple.
For example, let's say your desire is to minimize harm in Area X. While you're on top and in control of Area X, then you can do that easily enough. Suddenly a competitor comes whose values show they're willing to do lots of harm to Area X. And if they beat you in the capitalistic marketplace and gain more control, they'll be able to do lots of harm. In order to beat them, you may have to do a little bit of harm to Area X, which goes against your values. But in doing so, you retain control, and prevent even greater harm to Area X. Is that not a "real" value?
Would it be a "real" value to staunchly refuse to do a little harm to Area X, even if you know that this will result in greater harm in the long run?
This is why I distrust simple ideologies. The world is not simple.
My main issue with your logic is less whether it makes sense or not and more that, in practice, it tends to be self-serving. Somehow, people tend to only apply it when doing the “minor” harm benefits them. Humans, myself included, are remarkable good at rationalizing their behavior.
Your logic doesn't hold up well to simple escalation logic.
Company A founds itself on doing 0 harm to Area X. Competitor B shows up and starts finding success doing 10 harm to Area X, so Company A makes a "moral" decision: If we do 9 harm to Area X, we are preventing 1 entire harm. Isn't that real value? then Company C shows up and starts finding success doing 100 harm to Area X, so Company A changes it's moral stance to "unless we do 99 harm to Area X ..."
I know an old lady who swallowed a fly kind of logic going on here.
> then Company C shows up and starts finding success doing 100 harm to Area X, so Company A changes it's moral stance to "unless we do 99 harm to Area X ..."
I mean yes this is technically possible. But I think in many cases, especially "winner-take-all" markets like online search engines, social networks, etc., you don't get this large number of repeated threats. Fending off a competitor or two might be enough. And just as it's possible for there to be some advantage that opens from doing 99 harm to Area X, it's also possible that it never happens.
But also, let's pretend the hypothetical you say _did_ happen?
What should occur? Should the company just NOT do 99 harm to Area X and instead allow 100? If so, why? Unless you break the hypothetical by adding some alternative option C, as much as we don't like the preventative-99 option, it's still better than the allowing-100 option.
> Unless you break the hypothetical by adding some alternative option C
That is kind of the point, isn't it? That my hypothetical scenario isn't realistic.
Let's imagine two worlds. A world where individuals refuse the false dichotomy and search for option C. And the world where someone accepts the false dichotomy and justifies evil.
I would argue that anyone that advocates for the justification of evil is actually using motivated reasoning. It breaks my original premise "Company A founds itself on doing 0 harm to Area X". Clearly they didn't and their embracing of evil shows that their principles mean nothing.
As a moral test, ask yourself: If I said "you must kill 99 people otherwise I will kill 100", would you feel morally justified to kill those 99 people? If your answer is "yes", then you are manipulable by those who want you to commit evil on their behalf. They don't have to commit any murders, just convince you that you have no other choice.
I mean, your proposed logic seems to be quite consistent from a basic game theory perspective. Defecting in a prisoners dilemma and races to the bottom are both well observed phenomena.
We have 10,000+ years of human civilization at this point. There must be some other active ethical maxim operating other than "choose the lesser of two evils" to explain why there is so much cooperation amongst humans. Evidence is not on the side of the preeminence of races to the bottom.
You should investigate the repeated prisoners dilemma.
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Sometimes being evil will make you win - but only what money can buy.