I've developed a style that I legitimately call Heterodox C++ (mainly due to the popularity of Orthodox C++), it is effectively a purely functional & metaprogramming heavy style of C++. Quite the opposite of this, not everyones cup of tea, and it won't fit into every codebase but it is incredibly powerful. The template metaprogramming C++ offers is the most powerful of any imperative language, and (subjective opinion) is second only to Lisp, but few people make use of it. With some of C++26 features you can almost even replicate most of Rusts safety features in pure C++ (via function tagging + reflection)
> The template metaprogramming C++ offers is the most powerful of any imperative language
I'm curious what languages you're comparing to here. Feels like it's only slightly more expressive than pure generics, but I admittedly haven't done much template metaprogramming myself. How does it compare to, say, Zig's comptime?
I’ll preface this by saying I mostly use C++ and have just basic experience in Zig, but as far as I understand comptime is much more procedural than C++ templates which are more declarative. With templates you get quite good pattern matching through the compiler’s machinery, for instance through template specialisation, while Zig, in my understanding, requires these to be handled manually in code. Personally, comptime feels like constexpr/consteval in C++ but with the ability to interact with the type system itself. The significant downside of C++ metaprogramming is that sometimes many features interact weakly and feel very much tacked on top of each other while Zig’s looks more cohesive. Perhaps someone with more Zig experience can weigh in.
Yuck. I'm sure your compile times suck and code is not readable (my subjective opinion as well). There's nothing worse than a ten-mile long lambda in C++. To each there own, however. C++ is four languages in one after all. :)
Templates are really amazing, once you learn the patterns there's basically a template version and a runtime version of things (policy types, etc.). All of that is great.
Legibility and understanding are in my opinion the most important aspect of any programming language, so Orthodox C++ is superior for maintainable code.
I've been using C++ for about 20 years and I've yet to see these scary template error messages people always complain about. Yeah, they're long, but they contain all the information you need to fix the issue, which is damn near always at the deepest point in the call stack that you still control.
C++ template metaprogramming is in some ways more powerful than Common Lisp macros, because it works at the type level: you can generate new types and dispatch into separate implementations by type. In contrast, Common Lisp type declarations are not available at macro expansion time unless you implement a full source-to-source translator in macros.
Yep, the article is a old one and not particularly well written. As somebody who has been using C++ from the early 90s and not particularly a fan of (all of) "Modern C++", there is not much information here.
If you're in a market that requires using C++, many of these decisions are made for you by the platform above you, and you're screwed. Turn on RTTI, build a fort to deflect the random exceptions they'll throw at you, and may the gods allow you to recoup your R&D before some well-intentioned yokel in some media or game vertical changes everything and requires you to change everything.
On the other hand, if you control your own destiny and care about velocity and code quality, many of these choices eventually become self-evident.
If you are messing around with the latest and greatest esoteric C++ stuff in 2026, bless you, you beautiful nerd. But it may be time to start evaluating where you are in life, and how you got here. (And if you're on a C++ committee, I revoke those blessings.)
For those who remain: if you have a C++ code base yet somehow have enough time and energy to write opinionated blog posts, it's really hard to imagine why you think you'd have a better take on this than Google.
> build a fort to deflect the random exceptions they'll throw at you
Sounds like you hate exceptions, right? In which case why do you handle them at all? Just leave them all unhandled and suddenly every exception is a crash. Which is really no different from someone choosing to terminate. Which you have to worry about even without exceptions.
> if you have a C++ code base yet somehow have enough time and energy to write opinionated blog posts, it's really hard to imagine why you think you'd have a better take on this than Google.
"Given that Google's existing code is not exception-tolerant [...] Our advice against using exceptions is not predicated on philosophical or moral grounds, but practical ones. [...] Things would probably be different if we had to do it all over again from scratch."
> Which is really no different from someone choosing to terminate.
If you std::abort(), you'll get a useful stack trace in the core dump. If you crash from an unhandled exception, you don't. That's a pretty huge difference and is one of the reasons exceptions suck.
> it's really hard to imagine why you think you'd have a better take on this than Google.
Do you mean this as an appeal to Google being the home to great talent, or more as an endorsement of the specific guidance provided by this specific style guide, Google or no?
Because if the former, I think I do almost everything better in my context than Google would. It would be hard not to considering the difference in organizational scale.
The point on exceptions I think is also misleading. Compilers typically make throwing an exception the expensive part, and the happy path inexpensive (not more expensive than a branch checking for errors, which should be the baseline for comparison, not an implementation with zero error checking.) So to say that they are "expensive" doesn't really make a useful argument.
And there are more things that could be done in this camp, like proposing a set of compiler flags, and a linter to enforce the subset you are subscribing to. Unfortunately the post offers none of that.
> <deque>: Needs a major performance overhaul", acknowledging that the standard's mandated block size is too small and the design needs to be rebuilt at the next ABI break
Except of course the standard does not mandate a block size. That's purely msvc picking a wrong block size and being stuck with it.
> There are many more things to avoid than just iostream.
But even "avoiding iostream" is stupid. The author presumably really means "avoid operator>> and operator<< for I/O". Even using type-safe printf-like stuff ultimately still sits on top of iostream.
and force me to implement my own typing system every time I need to upcast.
Basically, stick with C and leave C++ programmers alone. I haven't seen a less useful article about C++ in a long time, and as an HN reader, that's really saying something.
One thing I've noticed about a lot of these "strict C" developers is that quite often they actually refuse to learn C++. One of the most common complaints of C developers regarding C++ is "it does things behind the scenes/performs magic", often with regards to operator overloading. When they refuse to actually look at the implementation (y'know you can check if an operator has been overloaded) AND they refuse to acknowledge that a huge chunk of "pure C" does HEAPS of magic behind the scenes (that the developer has no idea about) unless they've actually studied the spec in detail. Malloc and memory allocation methods are at least 10k+ lines of code for instance.
I don't think "refusing to learn C++" is the right way to frame it. I want to use the language features that are actually useful to me, without being forced into a specific programming style. I can't speak for every "orthodox C++" programmer, but for me that means using exclusively plain-old-data structs, non-member functions, and "dumb" pointers. I have no issue with learning to use a C++ feature when it's directly useful to a problem I'm trying to solve.
As one example, I recently found templated lambdas useful in making animations.
I was programming in C++ before switching to C and I would say that C++ adds a huge amount of mental load compared to C. I think one can understand how much of a relieve it is to not worry about everything C++ does only after not using C++ for a quite a while.
> y'know you can check if an operator has been overloaded
And there lies the problem with C++: to be sure, you have to check. C++ code can't be taken at face value -- the most innocuous-looking code could be a ticking bomb.
A lot of us are too busy solving problems. Learning about the latest language features, which we often won't be able to use anyway due to the trouble of moving a large dev environment to a newer standard, feels like academic masturbation.
C++ folks are very much into their language, and can't seem to understand that most folks don't want to dedicate significant amounts of mental resources purely to language details.
Trust me, I know more C++ than most or all of my peers (working two jobs simultaneously), and I know a million ways that C++ features suck. Also standard library and containers. If you want I'll point out the ways in which std::deque, and even std::map, std::unordered_map, even std::vector (!) suck. IMO, just don't do it.
c memory allocation functions can be implemented in 1000 lines or so. I've done it myself. Maybe more are needed to handle strange operating systems or architectures, as glib does.
> Malloc and memory allocation methods are at least 10k+ lines of code for instance.
Only the really big ones, e.g. here is Emscripten's allocator that focuses on small binary size and is implemented in about 1.5 kloc (ignoring comments and whitespace it's actually under 1 kloc), and that allocator is perfectly fine for most use cases (especially C code bases which typically don't have a high allocation frequency):
Right tool for the job etc... big general-purpose allocators like jemalloc or mimalloc are usually a bandaid to somewhat salvage a failed memory management strategy.
C programmers aren't complaining about the "magic" being tens of thousands of lines of code. They're complaining about the magic including bizarre side effects that brazenly violate the principle of least astonishment.
In C++, you can overload the comma operator to do shit. I've seen it done. There's no reason to do it, and no reasonable person would ever expect it in a code base they're unfamiliar with. To find bug in that ultimately roots back to that implementation, you have to go eliminate every other whack-job possibility before it even occurs to you that maybe the weirdo who wrote this code chose to overload the comma operator.
I'm not going to argue with anyone who wants to use C++ in their own projects, you do you. But let's be real about what C programmers are complaining about. It's not line count. It's syntactic obfuscation. I don't just level this criticism at C++ either. Basically every major new language has its own byzantine syntactic constructs to some degree.
If we accept the maximum that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", then c++ is indeed magic. It's so advanced that one of the worlds foremost experts in the language(herb sutter) has determined that the language is too complex and we need a whole new language(confront) which is simpler and can be converted to c++.
This isn't because it requires RTTI, but dynamic_cast is also a typical code smell.
Orthodox C++ isn't generally against new C++ features, it only advices to wait about 5 years (or at least one C++ version) for stabilization and to apply some common sense before adopting them.
The notes about not using RTTI, exceptions and stdlib features that allocate under the hood are all justified by painful experience with those things in the context of game development.
In general, the restrictions outlined in the post make a lot of sense when considering that Branimir (of BGFX fame: https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx) is coming out of the game dev hemisphere, and from that PoV none of the restrictions are controversial - on the contrary, it would be highly controversial to suggest going all in on Modern C++ features ;)
I can see no rationale for this whatsoever. It is nothing but syntactic sugar.
> Branmir (of BGFX fame
Appeals to authority don't really work for me.
I've been writing a cross-platform DAW (0) for 25+ years, in C++, and what a game dev has to say about the language in their own work might be of passing interest but not much more.
Being aware of the pitfalls of particular features of a language is an important task for anyone programming in that language. But that doesn't mean that the language is fundamentally broken or that programmers cannot make their own choices about which features to use.
(0) on at least the same level of complexity as a modern game
LLVM uses a hand-rolled version of RTTI for the best performance (the parent constructor accepts its runtime type as an enum), and it seemed that the maintenance costs for it aren't that high. (See https://llvm.org/docs/HowToSetUpLLVMStyleRTTI.html)
Or if you're even lazier, you can easily make a more automatic RTTI system with some templates / macros that works much faster than dynamic_cast! (See https://github.com/royvandam/rtti)
The problem with this is that whoever is reading the code as-is does not know what type "ess" is. Sometimes you get the definition somewhere nearby, in which case it is probably fine - assuming it is close enough that it'll be included in a diff - but more often than not you don't know.
Yes, an IDE can probably tell you (probably, depends on the IDE and assuming everyone uses one) but even that requires some extra action like moving the mouse over the definition and hoping it'll give you something. However this wont show up in diffs, PRs, code reviews, etc.
IMO `auto` is one of those C++ features that really needs discipline to use - and when in doubt, i'd rather ban its use (except where you cannot do otherwise) than rely on everyone doing the right thing.
C++ is an IDE type language in my opinion. C is not, because C doesn’t have an expressive enough type system anyway to justify it.
Yes, just use and IDE. This is a problem in Rust as well. And C#, Java, and others.
IMO you should use auto as much as possible. If the code can be written with auto, it should be. There’s no reason to repeat type definitions.
If you can use auto, what that means is the type is already statically known. C++ is a statically typed language; the compiler and tools know what type things are. So, just ask the tools, because they’re not wrong.
It doesn't matter what the type is, that's the whole point!
Moreover, what's even more beautiful? You can change the type of things in the container "esses", and the code doesn't need to change.
If you have the experience, this construct tells you everything you need to know: it's an iteration over a container, visiting every element in order, without copying it, and without modifying it.
How important is that, the ability to be certain of the type of some iterated value from a container from one line in total isolation? The odds are very good that it's clear from the context, which is why the compiler can infer it easily enough too. And then the consequence of not inferring correctly would be...the code doesn't compile?
Of course some discipline is required - as with just about everything in programming, especially in C++ - but developers in just about every other statically-typed language lean on type inference (including far more extensive type inference) and don't wring their hands about it. It's hard not to see this as a case of Blub - if you learned about typing with `Foo foo = new Foo()`, anything different might seem scary.
...anyway, in this case the real win probably is the range-based for loop, rather than the auto. `for (const Foo& foo : foos)` isn't so bad, but `for (std::vector<Foo>::const_iterator it = foos.begin(); it != foos.end(); ++it)` is pretty rough.
stringstreams and fmt are a godsend compared to printf/scanf, which have historically led to most memory bugs in the first place!
Printf/scanf are implemented as variadic functions without type checking and rely on the compiler to perform its own internal metaprogramming to inspect and warn about format mismatches.
Anyone advocating the use of the old cstdio as a primary design decision about which C++ language features to use is not serious.
No exceptions or RTTI make sense in an embedded system that needs to ensure determinism, but are arbitrary and unnecessarily hobbling for high-level systems and application programming. How do you do runtime method dispatch without creating vtables and RTTI from first principles? How do you propagate a runtime error deep from the bowels of a component all the way to some top-level event loop? The "orthodox" approach would be a mess of integer return codes with associated enums (and none of that enum class nonsense!). No Thanks. It's clear the author has no idea what he's talking about.
I've been doing embedded systems in C++ since rocks were young, and this is a great summary of what to avoid.
I would sure love a good coroutine runtime, and first-class support for defer. You can do these manually, but language/toolchain/debugger support is nice to have.
(Pragmatically, I will be retired by the time they would be useful)
It is still a bit amazing to me that it was significantly easier to do coroutines in Sigma 5 assembly and likely most any assembly than in C or C++. Two languages supposedly close to the machine.
I have seen a pure C/C++ implementation of coroutines (it used setjmp/longjmp, and memcpy to copy stacks in and out of the native arena). Not the most portable of constructions, but it worked absurdly well.
Being able to write "async" code essentially in-line is a superpower.
In embedded, I like wrapping a class around a set of registers. Nobody else gets to write to that piece of hardware except that class.
As far as avoiding things... avoid basically everything you don't need. Don't add language features that don't actually help you, just because they're there. Keep the subset you use small. But pick that subset to match your problem well, rather than out of dogma.
Nothing surprising here. People who view C++ as just a better C always outnumbered those who view it as another language.
That's exactly how democratic governments make their decisions… you might think it's stupid, and you'd be right, but that's democracy. It's the majority that counts, not what's right. At least you can have a little fun with their arguments, they're pretty inventive you know.
Sometimes I actually want objects that are transparent, fully public, and 'struct' is perfect for that. But if I then go and put methods into those structs, does that make me unorthodox?
That's simply because we live in a world where UFCS is restricted to niche languages and we're stuck with "methods" instead. At least Rust/Kotlin/Swift support type extensions (with a thousand papercuts, i. e orphan rules)
No, it is perfectly valid if your design demands it.
For example, the Windows MFC framework had classes whose data members were all public. Some of reasons were;
1) MFC was a wrapper over lower-level Windows API/structs and therefore unnecessary getter/setter methods were avoided. The C++ class could be a simple wrapper over the underlying C-style POD.
2) The framework classes were supposed to be used by implementation inheritance to build one's skeleton application which led to tight coupling between base and derived classes. Hence the designers decided to make all members public which meant that users were not limited by any omissions in the basic design.
I actually used these ideas in a project where i implemented a C++ api over C state machines for H.323 protocols.
This is gonna be a long critique, I'll try to keep it concise.
> C-like C++ is good start, if code doesn’t require more complexity don’t add unnecessary C++ complexities.
C is almost obsolete nowadays. Not to mention that C++ is effectively a strict superset of C (nearly 99% of the C standard is in C++) and the few features that aren't are included as compiler extensions (VLA, restrict keyword, nested functions). There are a handful of C features that aren't in C++, and for very good reason (most of them suck).
When was the last time you ran into a C library that a pure C++ compiler couldn't compile? Only if someone decided to spam the new keyword all over the codebase (or something similar).
> In general case code should be readable to anyone who is familiar with C language.
Most C++ already is? Even very template heavy C++.
> Don’t do this, the end of “design rationale” in Orthodox C++ should be immedately after “Quite simple, and it is usable. EOF”.
A lot of the methods in that document are necessary to make C++ shine, especially template metaprogramming.
> Don’t use exceptions.
Optional but irrelevant.
> Don’t use RTTI.
.. Why? Reimplementing RTTI in C will give you almost the same overhead.
> Don’t use C++ runtime wrapper for C runtime includes (<cstdio>, <cmath>, etc.), use C runtime instead (<stdio.h>, <math.h>, etc.)
.. Why? Those wrappers all include the "raw C runtime" under the hood (literally they do #include <stdio.h|xx>. Near 0 compiletime overhead?
> Don’t use stream (<iostream>, <stringstream>, etc.), use printf style functions instead.
This is a design decision.
> Don’t use metaprogramming excessively for academic masturbation. Use it in moderation, only where necessary, and where it reduces code complexity.
There are many programs that are _impossible_ to write in a finite time without metaprogramming. How will you (with zero runtime overhead) dispatch a function with a variable arity of random types to a handler that requires exactly that type of function? Arbitrarily? In C++ it's possible, in C it isn't.
> When was the last time you ran into a C library that a pure C++ compiler couldn't compile? Only if someone decided to spam the new keyword all over the codebase (or something similar).
In C, you can use goto to jump over a variable declaration, and you can't in C++. I understand why this is, but it's the thing I see the most often that makes C code not compile as C++.
But, one of the annoying habits of WG21 (the C++ committee) is sending stuff to WG14 (the C committee) to have them make it part of their language rather than accept that it's a C++ problem. Even the stupid type qualifiers are actually C++'s fault, K&R doesn't have this abomination but the pre-standard C++ did so too bad now it's in C89.
I'm not opposed to the concept, but the definition is problematic:
> Orthodox C++ (sometimes referred as C+) is minimal subset of C++ that improves C, but avoids all unnecessary things from so called Modern C++. It’s exactly opposite of what Modern C++ suppose to be.
"Modern C++" is usually considered to mean the significant changes to the language in 2011, or 2011 and later. The thing is, that a "small subset improving over C", and without "unnecessary things" will not necessarily avoid 2011-and-later language features, and splurge with pre-2011 features. And this becomes clear as you read the recommendation. So, it's recommand to avoid:
* exceptions
* STL objects which allocate memory
* C++ streams
all C98 features. On the other hand, it's not recommended to avoid constexpr, and it is in fact hinted it is useful.
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C++ is a multi-paradigmatic language. It has lots of features, in the language and via the standard library. It is perfectly reasonable and legitimate to pick feautres which are well-tested enough; or well-regarded by, say, embedded or game developers, or doesn't seem too outlandish coming from C. Of course, different people will quibble over what exactly to adopt or discard, but I'm sure that different flavors of "orthodox C++", "sane C++", etc. are in fact used by many groups of developers.
typedef is a little bit of a hassle but you can do it, even in a very strict mechanical way if writing plain C. But it's a hassle.
And namespaces suck too, so much noise for little gain. You know what, a big part of programming is naming. You just have to come up with good names. Namespaces don't magically make names better, if anything, they make them worse. And they add a lot of syntax noise.
Man, all of the confusion and gnashing of teeth in the C++ world really makes me grateful for my job. Smaller company, I solo develop a central module on the product stack, and I was able to evaluate languages for the project.
Nim became the obvious choice, and I wasn't a fanboy before. Simple semantics, in a very functional style oriented around data's value. References and identity have to be trapdoored. Everything is single-owner unique lifetimes by default, no annotations or best-practices required. You end up writing extraordinarily functional/procedural code that produces very fast and memory-safe binaries, it fits right into C++'s niche.
The only objection I could steel man was that the standard library and most packages are composed of relatively pure functions that return new values, so allocations are happening there. But when types as complex as data frames can be semantically used as just values, and you know they have scoped lifetimes by default, the benefits are obvious.
With all of C++'s insanely specific, subtle, implicit, compiler- and platform-dependent behaviors, I've often wondered when the industry will finally consider its dominance an artifact of first-mover inertia and simply move on. There are vastly better ways to do all of the things it does, while easily exposing levers for the the things it's considered to do exceptionally well.
I've developed a style that I legitimately call Heterodox C++ (mainly due to the popularity of Orthodox C++), it is effectively a purely functional & metaprogramming heavy style of C++. Quite the opposite of this, not everyones cup of tea, and it won't fit into every codebase but it is incredibly powerful. The template metaprogramming C++ offers is the most powerful of any imperative language, and (subjective opinion) is second only to Lisp, but few people make use of it. With some of C++26 features you can almost even replicate most of Rusts safety features in pure C++ (via function tagging + reflection)
> The template metaprogramming C++ offers is the most powerful of any imperative language
I'm curious what languages you're comparing to here. Feels like it's only slightly more expressive than pure generics, but I admittedly haven't done much template metaprogramming myself. How does it compare to, say, Zig's comptime?
I’ll preface this by saying I mostly use C++ and have just basic experience in Zig, but as far as I understand comptime is much more procedural than C++ templates which are more declarative. With templates you get quite good pattern matching through the compiler’s machinery, for instance through template specialisation, while Zig, in my understanding, requires these to be handled manually in code. Personally, comptime feels like constexpr/consteval in C++ but with the ability to interact with the type system itself. The significant downside of C++ metaprogramming is that sometimes many features interact weakly and feel very much tacked on top of each other while Zig’s looks more cohesive. Perhaps someone with more Zig experience can weigh in.
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Yuck. I'm sure your compile times suck and code is not readable (my subjective opinion as well). There's nothing worse than a ten-mile long lambda in C++. To each there own, however. C++ is four languages in one after all. :)
Templates are really amazing, once you learn the patterns there's basically a template version and a runtime version of things (policy types, etc.). All of that is great.
Legibility and understanding are in my opinion the most important aspect of any programming language, so Orthodox C++ is superior for maintainable code.
The problem with metaprogramming-heavy C++ codebases is always compilation times and obtuse error messages...
Template metaprogramming is sometimes very useful to get around C++'s language restrictions, but I tend to use it sparingly.
I've been using C++ for about 20 years and I've yet to see these scary template error messages people always complain about. Yeah, they're long, but they contain all the information you need to fix the issue, which is damn near always at the deepest point in the call stack that you still control.
> obtuse error messages
With concepts and constexpr-if and consteval it's increasingly less of a problem
have you written about this anywhere, or hosting any examples?
You might find Functional Programming in C++ by Ivan Cukic relevant.
Not yet, I might one day.
C++ template metaprogramming is in some ways more powerful than Common Lisp macros, because it works at the type level: you can generate new types and dispatch into separate implementations by type. In contrast, Common Lisp type declarations are not available at macro expansion time unless you implement a full source-to-source translator in macros.
Submitted a fair few times previously. HN's search turned up these submissions with some additional discussion:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13751244 (9 years ago, 29 points, 14 comments)
Looks like the page was moved from a GitHub gist to a github.io page in October of last year.
Yep, the article is a old one and not particularly well written. As somebody who has been using C++ from the early 90s and not particularly a fan of (all of) "Modern C++", there is not much information here.
If you're in a market that requires using C++, many of these decisions are made for you by the platform above you, and you're screwed. Turn on RTTI, build a fort to deflect the random exceptions they'll throw at you, and may the gods allow you to recoup your R&D before some well-intentioned yokel in some media or game vertical changes everything and requires you to change everything.
On the other hand, if you control your own destiny and care about velocity and code quality, many of these choices eventually become self-evident.
If you are messing around with the latest and greatest esoteric C++ stuff in 2026, bless you, you beautiful nerd. But it may be time to start evaluating where you are in life, and how you got here. (And if you're on a C++ committee, I revoke those blessings.)
For those who remain: if you have a C++ code base yet somehow have enough time and energy to write opinionated blog posts, it's really hard to imagine why you think you'd have a better take on this than Google.
https://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html
> build a fort to deflect the random exceptions they'll throw at you
Sounds like you hate exceptions, right? In which case why do you handle them at all? Just leave them all unhandled and suddenly every exception is a crash. Which is really no different from someone choosing to terminate. Which you have to worry about even without exceptions.
> if you have a C++ code base yet somehow have enough time and energy to write opinionated blog posts, it's really hard to imagine why you think you'd have a better take on this than Google.
"Given that Google's existing code is not exception-tolerant [...] Our advice against using exceptions is not predicated on philosophical or moral grounds, but practical ones. [...] Things would probably be different if we had to do it all over again from scratch."
> Which is really no different from someone choosing to terminate.
If you std::abort(), you'll get a useful stack trace in the core dump. If you crash from an unhandled exception, you don't. That's a pretty huge difference and is one of the reasons exceptions suck.
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> Sounds like you hate exceptions, right? In which case why do you handle them at all?
One of the problems with exceptions is it’s utterly impossible to know if a given function call can return exceptions and if so what they are.
My code DOES want to handle errors. Exceptions are, imho, a very very poor way to report errors.
Python is the bloody worst because I never effing know what the hell any damn function can throw or return. It’s so so frustrating.
Error handling is a hard and unsolved problem. But I’ll take Rust results over exceptions 10,000% of the time. Not even a question.
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> it's really hard to imagine why you think you'd have a better take on this than Google.
Do you mean this as an appeal to Google being the home to great talent, or more as an endorsement of the specific guidance provided by this specific style guide, Google or no?
Because if the former, I think I do almost everything better in my context than Google would. It would be hard not to considering the difference in organizational scale.
I interview C++ developers often, and here in 2026 it seems pretty much everyone is using modern (C++20 and up) language versions.
Maybe the tooling finally caught up.
My codebase uses a fairly dumbed down version of C++, but I would have liked to see more depth in this post. As it is, it is not very useful.
There are many more things to avoid than just iostream. HFT university has a good recap: https://hftuniversity.com/post/the-c-standard-library-has-be...
The point on exceptions I think is also misleading. Compilers typically make throwing an exception the expensive part, and the happy path inexpensive (not more expensive than a branch checking for errors, which should be the baseline for comparison, not an implementation with zero error checking.) So to say that they are "expensive" doesn't really make a useful argument.
And there are more things that could be done in this camp, like proposing a set of compiler flags, and a linter to enforce the subset you are subscribing to. Unfortunately the post offers none of that.
[from the linked article]
> <deque>: Needs a major performance overhaul", acknowledging that the standard's mandated block size is too small and the design needs to be rebuilt at the next ABI break
Except of course the standard does not mandate a block size. That's purely msvc picking a wrong block size and being stuck with it.
The rant about lists is also nonsense.
I'm not sure about the standard part, but it does call out MS' STL in the sentence prior to what you quoted.
And why is the latter nonsense? lists have had terrible cache performance for decades now and vector is the better default choice of container.
> There are many more things to avoid than just iostream.
But even "avoiding iostream" is stupid. The author presumably really means "avoid operator>> and operator<< for I/O". Even using type-safe printf-like stuff ultimately still sits on top of iostream.
<format> doesn't require iostream.
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AI slop article.
Unlike your comment, which is the pinnacle of human thought?
You are also wrong.
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You can take
from my cold dead hands.
Also, you can fight me if you want to take
and force me to implement my own typing system every time I need to upcast.
Basically, stick with C and leave C++ programmers alone. I haven't seen a less useful article about C++ in a long time, and as an HN reader, that's really saying something.
One thing I've noticed about a lot of these "strict C" developers is that quite often they actually refuse to learn C++. One of the most common complaints of C developers regarding C++ is "it does things behind the scenes/performs magic", often with regards to operator overloading. When they refuse to actually look at the implementation (y'know you can check if an operator has been overloaded) AND they refuse to acknowledge that a huge chunk of "pure C" does HEAPS of magic behind the scenes (that the developer has no idea about) unless they've actually studied the spec in detail. Malloc and memory allocation methods are at least 10k+ lines of code for instance.
I don't think "refusing to learn C++" is the right way to frame it. I want to use the language features that are actually useful to me, without being forced into a specific programming style. I can't speak for every "orthodox C++" programmer, but for me that means using exclusively plain-old-data structs, non-member functions, and "dumb" pointers. I have no issue with learning to use a C++ feature when it's directly useful to a problem I'm trying to solve.
As one example, I recently found templated lambdas useful in making animations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw-h0dePYZM
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I was programming in C++ before switching to C and I would say that C++ adds a huge amount of mental load compared to C. I think one can understand how much of a relieve it is to not worry about everything C++ does only after not using C++ for a quite a while.
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> y'know you can check if an operator has been overloaded
And there lies the problem with C++: to be sure, you have to check. C++ code can't be taken at face value -- the most innocuous-looking code could be a ticking bomb.
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A lot of us are too busy solving problems. Learning about the latest language features, which we often won't be able to use anyway due to the trouble of moving a large dev environment to a newer standard, feels like academic masturbation.
C++ folks are very much into their language, and can't seem to understand that most folks don't want to dedicate significant amounts of mental resources purely to language details.
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All the foot guns in C are still in C++, and C++ adds a significant multiple more.
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Trust me, I know more C++ than most or all of my peers (working two jobs simultaneously), and I know a million ways that C++ features suck. Also standard library and containers. If you want I'll point out the ways in which std::deque, and even std::map, std::unordered_map, even std::vector (!) suck. IMO, just don't do it.
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c memory allocation functions can be implemented in 1000 lines or so. I've done it myself. Maybe more are needed to handle strange operating systems or architectures, as glib does.
> Malloc and memory allocation methods are at least 10k+ lines of code for instance.
Only the really big ones, e.g. here is Emscripten's allocator that focuses on small binary size and is implemented in about 1.5 kloc (ignoring comments and whitespace it's actually under 1 kloc), and that allocator is perfectly fine for most use cases (especially C code bases which typically don't have a high allocation frequency):
https://github.com/emscripten-core/emscripten/blob/main/syst...
...and Seb Aaltonen's offset allocator (used for allocating GPU buffers in his Vulkan API wrapper) has under 500 lines of code:
https://github.com/sebbbi/OffsetAllocator/blob/main/offsetAl...
Right tool for the job etc... big general-purpose allocators like jemalloc or mimalloc are usually a bandaid to somewhat salvage a failed memory management strategy.
C programmers aren't complaining about the "magic" being tens of thousands of lines of code. They're complaining about the magic including bizarre side effects that brazenly violate the principle of least astonishment.
In C++, you can overload the comma operator to do shit. I've seen it done. There's no reason to do it, and no reasonable person would ever expect it in a code base they're unfamiliar with. To find bug in that ultimately roots back to that implementation, you have to go eliminate every other whack-job possibility before it even occurs to you that maybe the weirdo who wrote this code chose to overload the comma operator.
I'm not going to argue with anyone who wants to use C++ in their own projects, you do you. But let's be real about what C programmers are complaining about. It's not line count. It's syntactic obfuscation. I don't just level this criticism at C++ either. Basically every major new language has its own byzantine syntactic constructs to some degree.
“It’s so much magic! Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go use my generic container library rewritten in 50 layers of preprocessor macros.”
If we accept the maximum that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", then c++ is indeed magic. It's so advanced that one of the worlds foremost experts in the language(herb sutter) has determined that the language is too complex and we need a whole new language(confront) which is simpler and can be converted to c++.
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> for (auto const & ess : esses) {
This is allowed by Orthodox C++
> dynamic_cast<Derived> (base_ptr)
This isn't because it requires RTTI, but dynamic_cast is also a typical code smell.
Orthodox C++ isn't generally against new C++ features, it only advices to wait about 5 years (or at least one C++ version) for stabilization and to apply some common sense before adopting them.
The notes about not using RTTI, exceptions and stdlib features that allocate under the hood are all justified by painful experience with those things in the context of game development.
In general, the restrictions outlined in the post make a lot of sense when considering that Branimir (of BGFX fame: https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx) is coming out of the game dev hemisphere, and from that PoV none of the restrictions are controversial - on the contrary, it would be highly controversial to suggest going all in on Modern C++ features ;)
> This is allowed by Orthodox C++
I can see no rationale for this whatsoever. It is nothing but syntactic sugar.
> Branmir (of BGFX fame
Appeals to authority don't really work for me.
I've been writing a cross-platform DAW (0) for 25+ years, in C++, and what a game dev has to say about the language in their own work might be of passing interest but not much more.
Being aware of the pitfalls of particular features of a language is an important task for anyone programming in that language. But that doesn't mean that the language is fundamentally broken or that programmers cannot make their own choices about which features to use.
(0) on at least the same level of complexity as a modern game
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LLVM uses a hand-rolled version of RTTI for the best performance (the parent constructor accepts its runtime type as an enum), and it seemed that the maintenance costs for it aren't that high. (See https://llvm.org/docs/HowToSetUpLLVMStyleRTTI.html)
Or if you're even lazier, you can easily make a more automatic RTTI system with some templates / macros that works much faster than dynamic_cast! (See https://github.com/royvandam/rtti)
> for (auto const & ess : esses) {
The problem with this is that whoever is reading the code as-is does not know what type "ess" is. Sometimes you get the definition somewhere nearby, in which case it is probably fine - assuming it is close enough that it'll be included in a diff - but more often than not you don't know.
Yes, an IDE can probably tell you (probably, depends on the IDE and assuming everyone uses one) but even that requires some extra action like moving the mouse over the definition and hoping it'll give you something. However this wont show up in diffs, PRs, code reviews, etc.
IMO `auto` is one of those C++ features that really needs discipline to use - and when in doubt, i'd rather ban its use (except where you cannot do otherwise) than rely on everyone doing the right thing.
C++ is an IDE type language in my opinion. C is not, because C doesn’t have an expressive enough type system anyway to justify it.
Yes, just use and IDE. This is a problem in Rust as well. And C#, Java, and others.
IMO you should use auto as much as possible. If the code can be written with auto, it should be. There’s no reason to repeat type definitions.
If you can use auto, what that means is the type is already statically known. C++ is a statically typed language; the compiler and tools know what type things are. So, just ask the tools, because they’re not wrong.
It doesn't matter what the type is, that's the whole point!
Moreover, what's even more beautiful? You can change the type of things in the container "esses", and the code doesn't need to change.
If you have the experience, this construct tells you everything you need to know: it's an iteration over a container, visiting every element in order, without copying it, and without modifying it.
You don't need to know any more.
How important is that, the ability to be certain of the type of some iterated value from a container from one line in total isolation? The odds are very good that it's clear from the context, which is why the compiler can infer it easily enough too. And then the consequence of not inferring correctly would be...the code doesn't compile?
Of course some discipline is required - as with just about everything in programming, especially in C++ - but developers in just about every other statically-typed language lean on type inference (including far more extensive type inference) and don't wring their hands about it. It's hard not to see this as a case of Blub - if you learned about typing with `Foo foo = new Foo()`, anything different might seem scary.
...anyway, in this case the real win probably is the range-based for loop, rather than the auto. `for (const Foo& foo : foos)` isn't so bad, but `for (std::vector<Foo>::const_iterator it = foos.begin(); it != foos.end(); ++it)` is pretty rough.
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Implementing STL iterators are a bloody PITA
You don't need iterators for the range-based for loop, just a .begin() and .end() method which returns a raw pointer is enough.
E.g.:
https://github.com/floooh/oryol/blob/eb08cffe1b1cb6b05ed14ec...
(don't use that project though because it's been archived, I've switched back to plain old C in the meantime)
stringstreams and fmt are a godsend compared to printf/scanf, which have historically led to most memory bugs in the first place!
Printf/scanf are implemented as variadic functions without type checking and rely on the compiler to perform its own internal metaprogramming to inspect and warn about format mismatches.
Anyone advocating the use of the old cstdio as a primary design decision about which C++ language features to use is not serious.
No exceptions or RTTI make sense in an embedded system that needs to ensure determinism, but are arbitrary and unnecessarily hobbling for high-level systems and application programming. How do you do runtime method dispatch without creating vtables and RTTI from first principles? How do you propagate a runtime error deep from the bowels of a component all the way to some top-level event loop? The "orthodox" approach would be a mess of integer return codes with associated enums (and none of that enum class nonsense!). No Thanks. It's clear the author has no idea what he's talking about.
Such a missed opportunity to call it C <orthodox cross emoji>
Was thinking "Hesitance C" could work
that's one way to combine three plus signs!
> Don’t use RTTI.
That's the core feature of the language. Not using it doesn't make any sense.
> Don’t use stream (<iostream>, <stringstream>, etc.), use printf style functions instead.
printf is type-unsafe and bug-prone. Also modern C++ standards have better formatting utilities.
> Don’t use anything from STL that allocates memory, unless you don’t care about memory management.
In 99.9% of the time one should not care. Using something like std::vector is perfectly fine.
Overall I find such "Orthodox" C++ harmful. I call it "pure C heresy".
The criticisms of STL and allocation are fair, though move constructors improved the shallow vs deep copy problem on resize.
Smart pointers are good. People were doing them outside the standard in the late 90s.
Lambdas are a good feature.
I've been doing embedded systems in C++ since rocks were young, and this is a great summary of what to avoid.
I would sure love a good coroutine runtime, and first-class support for defer. You can do these manually, but language/toolchain/debugger support is nice to have.
(Pragmatically, I will be retired by the time they would be useful)
A defer is just a dozen lines of code nowadays, if you really need it, but in most cases you don't if you're doing RAII
It is still a bit amazing to me that it was significantly easier to do coroutines in Sigma 5 assembly and likely most any assembly than in C or C++. Two languages supposedly close to the machine.
I have seen a pure C/C++ implementation of coroutines (it used setjmp/longjmp, and memcpy to copy stacks in and out of the native arena). Not the most portable of constructions, but it worked absurdly well.
Being able to write "async" code essentially in-line is a superpower.
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In embedded, I like wrapping a class around a set of registers. Nobody else gets to write to that piece of hardware except that class.
As far as avoiding things... avoid basically everything you don't need. Don't add language features that don't actually help you, just because they're there. Keep the subset you use small. But pick that subset to match your problem well, rather than out of dogma.
Nothing surprising here. People who view C++ as just a better C always outnumbered those who view it as another language.
That's exactly how democratic governments make their decisions… you might think it's stupid, and you'd be right, but that's democracy. It's the majority that counts, not what's right. At least you can have a little fun with their arguments, they're pretty inventive you know.
At this point, if you want better C, just use Zig.
Except it is years away of being 1.0, with the industry support of C++.
Sometimes I actually want objects that are transparent, fully public, and 'struct' is perfect for that. But if I then go and put methods into those structs, does that make me unorthodox?
That's simply because we live in a world where UFCS is restricted to niche languages and we're stuck with "methods" instead. At least Rust/Kotlin/Swift support type extensions (with a thousand papercuts, i. e orphan rules)
No, it is perfectly valid if your design demands it.
For example, the Windows MFC framework had classes whose data members were all public. Some of reasons were;
1) MFC was a wrapper over lower-level Windows API/structs and therefore unnecessary getter/setter methods were avoided. The C++ class could be a simple wrapper over the underlying C-style POD.
2) The framework classes were supposed to be used by implementation inheritance to build one's skeleton application which led to tight coupling between base and derived classes. Hence the designers decided to make all members public which meant that users were not limited by any omissions in the basic design.
I actually used these ideas in a project where i implemented a C++ api over C state machines for H.323 protocols.
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Don't follow dogma.
Holly bananas, that Boost Design Rationale post is, what's the word I'm looking for, intense.
This is gonna be a long critique, I'll try to keep it concise.
> C-like C++ is good start, if code doesn’t require more complexity don’t add unnecessary C++ complexities.
C is almost obsolete nowadays. Not to mention that C++ is effectively a strict superset of C (nearly 99% of the C standard is in C++) and the few features that aren't are included as compiler extensions (VLA, restrict keyword, nested functions). There are a handful of C features that aren't in C++, and for very good reason (most of them suck). When was the last time you ran into a C library that a pure C++ compiler couldn't compile? Only if someone decided to spam the new keyword all over the codebase (or something similar).
> In general case code should be readable to anyone who is familiar with C language.
Most C++ already is? Even very template heavy C++.
> Don’t do this, the end of “design rationale” in Orthodox C++ should be immedately after “Quite simple, and it is usable. EOF”.
A lot of the methods in that document are necessary to make C++ shine, especially template metaprogramming.
> Don’t use exceptions.
Optional but irrelevant.
> Don’t use RTTI.
.. Why? Reimplementing RTTI in C will give you almost the same overhead.
> Don’t use C++ runtime wrapper for C runtime includes (<cstdio>, <cmath>, etc.), use C runtime instead (<stdio.h>, <math.h>, etc.)
.. Why? Those wrappers all include the "raw C runtime" under the hood (literally they do #include <stdio.h|xx>. Near 0 compiletime overhead?
> Don’t use stream (<iostream>, <stringstream>, etc.), use printf style functions instead.
This is a design decision.
> Don’t use metaprogramming excessively for academic masturbation. Use it in moderation, only where necessary, and where it reduces code complexity.
There are many programs that are _impossible_ to write in a finite time without metaprogramming. How will you (with zero runtime overhead) dispatch a function with a variable arity of random types to a handler that requires exactly that type of function? Arbitrarily? In C++ it's possible, in C it isn't.
> When was the last time you ran into a C library that a pure C++ compiler couldn't compile? Only if someone decided to spam the new keyword all over the codebase (or something similar).
In C, you can use goto to jump over a variable declaration, and you can't in C++. I understand why this is, but it's the thing I see the most often that makes C code not compile as C++.
For me it was already obsolete in 1992, when I was given a copy of Turbo C++ 1.0 for MS-DOS.
It was the next step from Turbo Pascal in terms of safety, with added benefits from cross platform.
Nowadays all C compilers that matter are written in C++ anyway.
> > Don’t do this, the end of “design rationale” in Orthodox C++ should be immedately after “Quite simple, and it is usable. EOF”.
> A lot of the methods in that document are necessary to make C++ shine, especially template metaprogramming.
So? Is your goal to make C++ shine, or is it to produce useful, understandable code? My goal is good code, not being a showoff.
> nearly 99% of the C standard is in C++
But, one of the annoying habits of WG21 (the C++ committee) is sending stuff to WG14 (the C committee) to have them make it part of their language rather than accept that it's a C++ problem. Even the stupid type qualifiers are actually C++'s fault, K&R doesn't have this abomination but the pre-standard C++ did so too bad now it's in C89.
And here I was thinking this was going to be about a schism from Holy C [1]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS#HolyC
Might as well use Rust. Basically if you have a choice, using C++ over Rust is kind of stupid in 2026, to be honest.
I'm not opposed to the concept, but the definition is problematic:
> Orthodox C++ (sometimes referred as C+) is minimal subset of C++ that improves C, but avoids all unnecessary things from so called Modern C++. It’s exactly opposite of what Modern C++ suppose to be.
"Modern C++" is usually considered to mean the significant changes to the language in 2011, or 2011 and later. The thing is, that a "small subset improving over C", and without "unnecessary things" will not necessarily avoid 2011-and-later language features, and splurge with pre-2011 features. And this becomes clear as you read the recommendation. So, it's recommand to avoid:
* exceptions
* STL objects which allocate memory
* C++ streams
all C98 features. On the other hand, it's not recommended to avoid constexpr, and it is in fact hinted it is useful.
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C++ is a multi-paradigmatic language. It has lots of features, in the language and via the standard library. It is perfectly reasonable and legitimate to pick feautres which are well-tested enough; or well-regarded by, say, embedded or game developers, or doesn't seem too outlandish coming from C. Of course, different people will quibble over what exactly to adopt or discard, but I'm sure that different flavors of "orthodox C++", "sane C++", etc. are in fact used by many groups of developers.
Somewhere within c++ there is a subset of c++ that is a great language.
The problem of course is that no one agrees on which subset that is.
Orthodox C++, to me, is C plus the one good feature of C++: you don't have to type struct all the time.
How about one of the C unorthodoxies that use typedef everywhere? (Namespaces seem suitable, too.)
typedef is a little bit of a hassle but you can do it, even in a very strict mechanical way if writing plain C. But it's a hassle.
And namespaces suck too, so much noise for little gain. You know what, a big part of programming is naming. You just have to come up with good names. Namespaces don't magically make names better, if anything, they make them worse. And they add a lot of syntax noise.
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I wish the site listed compiler flags for the most popular compilers.
No benefits to modules? Oh come on.
Hard to take seriously.
Man, all of the confusion and gnashing of teeth in the C++ world really makes me grateful for my job. Smaller company, I solo develop a central module on the product stack, and I was able to evaluate languages for the project.
Nim became the obvious choice, and I wasn't a fanboy before. Simple semantics, in a very functional style oriented around data's value. References and identity have to be trapdoored. Everything is single-owner unique lifetimes by default, no annotations or best-practices required. You end up writing extraordinarily functional/procedural code that produces very fast and memory-safe binaries, it fits right into C++'s niche.
The only objection I could steel man was that the standard library and most packages are composed of relatively pure functions that return new values, so allocations are happening there. But when types as complex as data frames can be semantically used as just values, and you know they have scoped lifetimes by default, the benefits are obvious.
With all of C++'s insanely specific, subtle, implicit, compiler- and platform-dependent behaviors, I've often wondered when the industry will finally consider its dominance an artifact of first-mover inertia and simply move on. There are vastly better ways to do all of the things it does, while easily exposing levers for the the things it's considered to do exceptionally well.