I was watching the video the other day, and my jaw dropped. Wenting is a display-technology beast. Watch his other videos too; he seems to be able to squeeze every last bit of possible performance out of every kind of display, and then some.
Wow, I'm glad to see that person is getting some more recognition for this work.
A claim in the video that I can't verify but makes economic/logistic sense is that the speed problem isn't the panels but the controllers. The current crop of controllers are optimized for low power, which fits the e-reader use case but that is not optimal for the interactive use case.
> A claim in the video that I can't verify but makes economic/logistic sense is that the speed problem isn't the panels but the controllers.
I don't understand the claim. It is lacking in specifics. Are they claiming that electrophoretic materials (meaning the panels) can actually switch (meaning move pigments) faster than say x.y micrometers per second? I don't think that is true. The article shows that what Wenting did ("binary transition") is pretty much the same as what companies like Dasung did. Instead of trying to have grayscale, it is faster to hit somewhat-black and somewhat-white and give the illusion of fast movement than actual fast movement.
> The current crop of controllers are optimized for low power, which fits the e-reader use case but that is not optimal for the interactive use case.
Why try to contort the technology for something it's not good at, instead of using a more appropriate technology like transflective LCDs? Eink isn't the only option for reflective displays. If you increase the power use of eink to get better refresh rates, I imagine you'd end up using more power than (and still end up with lower refresh rates than) an MIP display.
I don't understand the growth of the market as a whole for eink monitors, when tLCDs exist and are disappearing from the market.
Been casually following the ePaper/eInk device space for years now and Modos is one of the more exciting developments I've come across in the space. Seriously impressive.
That said, I'm curious what impact the increased refresh rate might have on a Carta panel's longevity. I assume the physical medium that allows each 'pixel' to be on/off has a certain tolerance after which the screen begins to degrade beyond a usable state.
Separately, I also want to understand more about how Wenting's approach differs (or not) from the flickering modern displays use to emit a picture, and, whether the direction actually addresses eye strain or reproduces the same issues (I'm assuming are) inherent in LCD/LED displays — i.e. it's the flickering that strains our eyes, not just light.
Maybe someone more versed than I am in this space would know. After 10+ years of computer work... my eyes hurt and I really want this to be a game changer.
In normal use, we don't expect fast refresh to significantly reduce an E Ink panel's lifetime.
The E Ink material itself is long-lived, the main stress is on the driving electronics and waveform behavior during refreshes. Our approach doesn't add extra refresh cycles, the display starts responding sooner, which improves perceived speed without adding extra refreshes.
So far, fast refresh hasn't been the dominant failure mode in our testing. Physical stress, bending, pressure, heat, and moisture are much larger risks.
On eye strain: E Ink is reflective and bistable, so a static image doesn't require continuously emitted light. Fast updates can still produce artifacts like flashing, dithering, or ghosting, but that's a different issue from a display that continuously flickers.
So I'd say this addresses an important part of the problem, though comfort will vary by person.
Also I recommend checking out the following resources:
Between this, the Daylight computer (I know it's RLCD), and some of the flagship Boox devices, I'm very excited for where alternative display technology is going in the next couple years. Displays that you can use outside and that drain the battery way slower open up so many possibilities for auxiliary devices. My ideal device would be an ultralight android tablet with a keyboard case and an outdoor display good enough to watch youtube on, that needs to be charged less than once per day. Hopefully this product is super successful and Modos move on to standalone devices next.
There are counter trends, like Garmin discontinuing their e-paper smartwatches. But hopefully that has more to do with that market being too narrow for viable alternatives, and not a fundamental issue with the economics of the displays themselves.
As a defense of Garmin, even without reflective/transflective/whatever displays (which would be better in sunlight), they still manage decent battery life. I can easily go a full week without charging mine, or several days with a daily ~1hr activity which uses GPS. It's certainly nothing compared to the ~month I managed on my previous watch, but plugging it in during my shower every few days totally eliminates battery anxiety, so I'm satisfied.
Wait what? Do you have a source? I can't find anything about that, and I see the Instinct 3 is still being sold. Very disappointing if so, as that line has been the perfect pebble replacement for me.
Their flagship devices used to be split into two lines - Epix (AMOLED) or Fenix (MIP). The latest Fenixs (8 series) are AMOLED like the Epix, so you can't get MIP anymore in those lines. I can't speak to their other lines, frankly I've never understood their naming and what each line supposedly does.
> two-person startup is back fund-raising for Modos Flow, a 13.3-inch color e-paper monitor with a higher native resolution of 3,200 x 2,400, touch input, and a 60Hz refresh rate
I think the 600 dollar price is more than double the price of the same diplay as a mass-produced product it's a price for enthusiasts of the technology
and it's open source so nothing stops a bigger producer of copying the exact technology with institutional funding and manufacturing expertise
I'd buy it but i want it in a laptop form or maybe tablet, or something. Being a monitor means the usefulness for me, ie being able to program outside, is kinda moot.
It's in the same ballpark as reMarkable's Pro offerings or the Supernote Manta (each are $4-500). e-ink is expensive. I went with Supernnote for the repairability even if it cost a bit extra.
I've seen these portable e-ink monitors available for nearly 10 years now, but this one seems to be the first that's responsive enough for general usage, which is a big step forward. Out of curiosity, if anyone here has one, what do you use it for? There must be something people are using them for if they've been a product niche for so long, but I can't think of what I would do with a standalone 13 inch e-ink monitor.
I just wish someone would look at the input side, too. I want true digital paper that I can draw on in real time already. Not the laggy nonsense that even stupidly overpowered tablets can't seem to get passed.
Last time I read about them (here in HN) somebody highlighted that the problem wasn’t to get them to function at a high refresh rate, the problem is they stop being energy effecient at that rate. Now I mostly skimmed the article but I couldn’t find any information regarding that.
Not bad considering this is a niche specialty product and cutting edge. The price will come down if the demand and market grow. Assuming raw hardware costs stop rising
The stylus solution is provided by E Ink to us. E Ink made the switch from EMR to USI a few years ago, so most E Ink devices, including the Modos Flow are using USI now.
Although I can't find an authoritative source on it the indications do support that assumption that it is USI. Technically USI doesn't have to be bad, it just appears that quality control on the standard is bad (similarly to how USB cables often don't meet the spec and can cause troubles as a result).
Sure. But USI is bad unless the OEM goes out of their way to make it good, whereas EMR is good unless the OEM goes out of their way to make it bad. EMR is the better tech, and with patents expired, and numerous other benefits such as no batteries needed in the pen, it should be standard now.
I think this device isn’t so much about a pen. It seems like it could be a really nice typing or coding or reading display. Maybe a future model could improve on the pen
The thing is, to get a pen right, all that they have to do is license Wacom EMR/Samsung's S-Pen (Samsung owns a 40% stake in Wacom, hence using their stylus tech).
Styluses w/ batteries/capacitors were okay once upon a time, but Wacom EMR "just works" and makes my life simpler/nicer (I couldn't count how many styluses I have around my house/in my bags so as to allow me to use my Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360, Galaxy Note 10+, Kindle Scribe Coloursoft, and Wacom One display (attached to a MacBook).
There is an awesome YouTube video about this from the person who made it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nHbA2-_qzH4
This link is way more interesting than the original ieee.
It was submitted to HN 2 times already but unfortunately it flew under the radar: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwa...
Upvoted them both. I’m an ECE prof, and the video summed up why working with students is so rewarding.
I was watching the video the other day, and my jaw dropped. Wenting is a display-technology beast. Watch his other videos too; he seems to be able to squeeze every last bit of possible performance out of every kind of display, and then some.
Wow, I'm glad to see that person is getting some more recognition for this work.
A claim in the video that I can't verify but makes economic/logistic sense is that the speed problem isn't the panels but the controllers. The current crop of controllers are optimized for low power, which fits the e-reader use case but that is not optimal for the interactive use case.
> A claim in the video that I can't verify but makes economic/logistic sense is that the speed problem isn't the panels but the controllers.
I don't understand the claim. It is lacking in specifics. Are they claiming that electrophoretic materials (meaning the panels) can actually switch (meaning move pigments) faster than say x.y micrometers per second? I don't think that is true. The article shows that what Wenting did ("binary transition") is pretty much the same as what companies like Dasung did. Instead of trying to have grayscale, it is faster to hit somewhat-black and somewhat-white and give the illusion of fast movement than actual fast movement.
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> The current crop of controllers are optimized for low power, which fits the e-reader use case but that is not optimal for the interactive use case.
Why try to contort the technology for something it's not good at, instead of using a more appropriate technology like transflective LCDs? Eink isn't the only option for reflective displays. If you increase the power use of eink to get better refresh rates, I imagine you'd end up using more power than (and still end up with lower refresh rates than) an MIP display.
I don't understand the growth of the market as a whole for eink monitors, when tLCDs exist and are disappearing from the market.
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I found the video on YouTube before the IEEE article. It's a fascinating story.
Been casually following the ePaper/eInk device space for years now and Modos is one of the more exciting developments I've come across in the space. Seriously impressive.
That said, I'm curious what impact the increased refresh rate might have on a Carta panel's longevity. I assume the physical medium that allows each 'pixel' to be on/off has a certain tolerance after which the screen begins to degrade beyond a usable state.
Separately, I also want to understand more about how Wenting's approach differs (or not) from the flickering modern displays use to emit a picture, and, whether the direction actually addresses eye strain or reproduces the same issues (I'm assuming are) inherent in LCD/LED displays — i.e. it's the flickering that strains our eyes, not just light.
Maybe someone more versed than I am in this space would know. After 10+ years of computer work... my eyes hurt and I really want this to be a game changer.
In normal use, we don't expect fast refresh to significantly reduce an E Ink panel's lifetime.
The E Ink material itself is long-lived, the main stress is on the driving electronics and waveform behavior during refreshes. Our approach doesn't add extra refresh cycles, the display starts responding sooner, which improves perceived speed without adding extra refreshes.
So far, fast refresh hasn't been the dominant failure mode in our testing. Physical stress, bending, pressure, heat, and moisture are much larger risks.
On eye strain: E Ink is reflective and bistable, so a static image doesn't require continuously emitted light. Fast updates can still produce artifacts like flashing, dithering, or ghosting, but that's a different issue from a display that continuously flickers.
So I'd say this addresses an important part of the problem, though comfort will vary by person.
Also I recommend checking out the following resources:
- https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okjJURIejIY
Between this, the Daylight computer (I know it's RLCD), and some of the flagship Boox devices, I'm very excited for where alternative display technology is going in the next couple years. Displays that you can use outside and that drain the battery way slower open up so many possibilities for auxiliary devices. My ideal device would be an ultralight android tablet with a keyboard case and an outdoor display good enough to watch youtube on, that needs to be charged less than once per day. Hopefully this product is super successful and Modos move on to standalone devices next.
There are counter trends, like Garmin discontinuing their e-paper smartwatches. But hopefully that has more to do with that market being too narrow for viable alternatives, and not a fundamental issue with the economics of the displays themselves.
Pebble is back, with MIP reflective LCD. I have one. It's great.
https://repebble.com/
Bangle.js 2 (https://banglejs.com/) also has a transflective LCD. It's very fun product with a great community.
Bangle.js 3 is being discussed: https://github.com/orgs/espruino/discussions/7341
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As a defense of Garmin, even without reflective/transflective/whatever displays (which would be better in sunlight), they still manage decent battery life. I can easily go a full week without charging mine, or several days with a daily ~1hr activity which uses GPS. It's certainly nothing compared to the ~month I managed on my previous watch, but plugging it in during my shower every few days totally eliminates battery anxiety, so I'm satisfied.
> Garmin discontinuing their e-paper smartwatches
Wait what? Do you have a source? I can't find anything about that, and I see the Instinct 3 is still being sold. Very disappointing if so, as that line has been the perfect pebble replacement for me.
Their flagship devices used to be split into two lines - Epix (AMOLED) or Fenix (MIP). The latest Fenixs (8 series) are AMOLED like the Epix, so you can't get MIP anymore in those lines. I can't speak to their other lines, frankly I've never understood their naming and what each line supposedly does.
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> two-person startup is back fund-raising for Modos Flow, a 13.3-inch color e-paper monitor with a higher native resolution of 3,200 x 2,400, touch input, and a 60Hz refresh rate
Those are some mighty specs. Godspeed.
If I had the 600-odd dollars, I'd absolutely buy this. It's a damn shame it's so expensive.
I think the 600 dollar price is more than double the price of the same diplay as a mass-produced product it's a price for enthusiasts of the technology
and it's open source so nothing stops a bigger producer of copying the exact technology with institutional funding and manufacturing expertise
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I'd buy it but i want it in a laptop form or maybe tablet, or something. Being a monitor means the usefulness for me, ie being able to program outside, is kinda moot.
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It's in the same ballpark as reMarkable's Pro offerings or the Supernote Manta (each are $4-500). e-ink is expensive. I went with Supernnote for the repairability even if it cost a bit extra.
I've seen these portable e-ink monitors available for nearly 10 years now, but this one seems to be the first that's responsive enough for general usage, which is a big step forward. Out of curiosity, if anyone here has one, what do you use it for? There must be something people are using them for if they've been a product niche for so long, but I can't think of what I would do with a standalone 13 inch e-ink monitor.
I just wish someone would look at the input side, too. I want true digital paper that I can draw on in real time already. Not the laggy nonsense that even stupidly overpowered tablets can't seem to get passed.
> Don’t make yourself regret the things you didn’t do
Nothing to add, but it bears repeating. A shimmer of indie tech resilience
Last time I read about them (here in HN) somebody highlighted that the problem wasn’t to get them to function at a high refresh rate, the problem is they stop being energy effecient at that rate. Now I mostly skimmed the article but I couldn’t find any information regarding that.
I think that's true, but energy efficiency is only one potential benefit of epaper displays, and not one that is a goal with this product.
When will I be able to get a 35” color e ink display with this high refresh rate?
This paired with LLMs....Looks like we'll have harry potter magic portraits soon! You could have a conversation with a portrait on your wall....
If you update that often it’s probably going to chew through the battery though.
Dimensions of monitor are: 315 x 254 x 16 mm - but what are dimensions of visible screen ? - is it enough to match A4 format 297 x 210 mm ?
How awesome would it be if it was reasonably priced AND doubled as a large eReader ?
The Crowd Supply website mentions the high power consumption but it would be great if I could connect it to a smartphone to work on the go!
so if I get one... anyone know if it may stop working in the future when macos changes something? Or does it not require installed software drivers?
i can't decide if i want the monochrome or color one
Price?
U$ 619 for the black and white model and U$ 719 for the color model
https://www.crowdsupply.com/modos-tech/modos-flow#products
Not bad considering this is a niche specialty product and cutting edge. The price will come down if the demand and market grow. Assuming raw hardware costs stop rising
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thumbs down
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So this is basically an advertisement for their product?
Unfortunately the pen is probably USI, making it borderline useless as a pen. This will not be like S-pen or Apple Pencil.
The stylus solution is provided by E Ink to us. E Ink made the switch from EMR to USI a few years ago, so most E Ink devices, including the Modos Flow are using USI now.
Although I can't find an authoritative source on it the indications do support that assumption that it is USI. Technically USI doesn't have to be bad, it just appears that quality control on the standard is bad (similarly to how USB cables often don't meet the spec and can cause troubles as a result).
Firmware can be checked here: https://gitlab.com/zephray/enchanter
Sure. But USI is bad unless the OEM goes out of their way to make it good, whereas EMR is good unless the OEM goes out of their way to make it bad. EMR is the better tech, and with patents expired, and numerous other benefits such as no batteries needed in the pen, it should be standard now.
I think this device isn’t so much about a pen. It seems like it could be a really nice typing or coding or reading display. Maybe a future model could improve on the pen
The thing is, to get a pen right, all that they have to do is license Wacom EMR/Samsung's S-Pen (Samsung owns a 40% stake in Wacom, hence using their stylus tech).
Styluses w/ batteries/capacitors were okay once upon a time, but Wacom EMR "just works" and makes my life simpler/nicer (I couldn't count how many styluses I have around my house/in my bags so as to allow me to use my Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360, Galaxy Note 10+, Kindle Scribe Coloursoft, and Wacom One display (attached to a MacBook).
6 replies →