← Back to context

Comment by xelxebar

15 hours ago

The baseless log here is just a torsor [0]!

Lots of things are torsors: position, currency values, calendar dates etc. the vales themselves are arbitrary, and translating/scaling them by some value doesn't make a functional difference. Torsors let us talk about these things without needing to make such an arbitrary choice a priori.

In the case of baseless logs, the underlying set is "information units", i.e. log 2 is bits, log e is nats, log 10 is digits, etc. The conversion factors give us the torsor's group, and picking a privileged unit is just a trivialization of the torsor.

The vector division notation is, similarly, encoding a g-torsor in precisely the same way as length units are.

The examples so far are all torsors with abelian groups, but specifying position both requires choosing an origin and a length unit. The group of this torsor is a suitable semidirect product between translation and scaling, which gives a non-abelian group.

Most of the time we just implicitly choose a trivialization, which often causes confusion because it identifies objects with operations on them, e.g. conflating vectors as positions with vectors as translations. The author's treatise on problems with geometric algebra [1] even brings up this point!

[0]:https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/torsors.html

[1]:https://alexkritchevsky.com/2024/02/28/geometric-algebra.htm...

8 comments

xelxebar

Reply
adrian_b  13 hours ago

Using the term "torsor" for that mathematical concept has been a very bad choice, both because the concept does not have any obvious relationship with the meaning of the word and because the word "torsor" had already been used for a very long time in classical mechanics for a very different concept, i.e. for the quantity that must be null for a rigid body to stay in equilibrium (i.e. the pair of a resultant force and a resultant torque).

Unfortunately, in mathematics there already is a long tradition of reusing common words to designate concepts that have no relationship whatsoever with the original meanings of those words. This obfuscates the content of many mathematical books or research papers, because even when they state trivial facts the statements are opaque for those unfamiliar with the specific jargon used in that niche branch of mathematics.

  • xelxebar  10 hours ago

    Words happen more than they are chosen, cf. "computer". The term "torsor" in this sense likely comes from the French "torseur" [0], which was used to describe rigid-body motions via a fundamental screw-like action.

    The hypothesis seems to be that the idea of affine spaces came out of that theory, for whatever reason, which was subsequently generalized to principle bundles and finally into what we have now. The point is that, at every step along the way, we want to connect the incrementally new ideas to existing ones, and creating a hard break with new, idiosyncratic terminology is itself obfuscatory.

    My beef is more with use of the heavily-overloaded words "regular" and "normal" in math, which just seems like lazy naming:

    > In the normal extension K/Q, every normal subgroup of the regular representation acts on a normal scheme that is regular in codimension one, whose normal bundle — orthonormal to the regular surface at each regular value — carries a normal operator whose spectrum follows a normal distribution over a space that is at once regular and normal, all indexed by a regular cardinal.

    That's like 8 different meanings of normal and 6 different meanings of regular. lol

    [0]:https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torseur

ajkjk  14 hours ago

I do know about torsors actually but I didn't think to link it from there. I guess I don't find the term very useful; it feels like things are still hard to think about even after you know it's a torsor!---but also, I think I need to get more familiar with the concept, because the other commenter on here who described my basis-logarithm as a "GL(V)-torsor" really said it much more succinctly than what I was hacking out manually.

Regardless of the terminology, I thought it was interesting because I have never seen the logarithm thought about in that way.

  • xelxebar  11 hours ago

    Thanks for the article. I do think your more elementary approach is good pedagogy since the subject is so broadly familiar already. I just like torsors, since they elegantly encode the "arbitrary choice" needed to deal with lots of objects.

    Thanks for the writeup!

    • ajkjk  1 hour ago

      glad you liked it

      I wonder if we should really just call them... vectors? Like the thing that torsors do, being defined only relative to a choice of origin in some space / group, is exactly what displacement vectors do. So really they are just generalizations of the concept of a vector. (In this scheme I would be careful to _not_ refer to points as vectors, so as to reserve the term for things that act like, well, torsors. I happen to think that much pedagogical harm has been done by not distinguishing the two concepts, points and displacements, early on.)