Comment by joe_mamba
2 days ago
>All the quotes are clearly talking about closer integration
Are you saying "the ends justify the means" of this "closer integration"? With that logic, Hitler's end goal was also closer integration of Europe's countries once he conquered them all.
>If you don't like it leave
Impossible to leave now when you joined 20+ years ago, when the EU was something completely different, which now grew beyond what you signed up for, without fucking your economy. It's called a rug pull with a dead man's switch. Try to leave and we make sure we all blow up.
>They have much larger problems to deal with, like [...] planning for when Trump inevitably invades Cuba
Why is Cuba a bigger issue for Ursula than what's happening in the EU? LAst time I checked Cuba is on a different continent and an insignificant trading partner of the EU.
> Are you saying "the ends justify the means" of this "closer integration"? With that logic, Hitler's end goal was also closer integration of Europe's countries once he conquered them all.
I am saying a closer union was what was agreed upon.
> Impossible to leave now when you joined 20+ years ago, when the EU was something completely different, which now grew beyond what you signed up for, without fucking your economy. It's called a rug pull with a dead man's switch. Try to leave and we make sure we all blow up.
The UK left 47 years after joining, it would be better off if they stayed in, but it has not been the end of the world. Also if your countrymen are pro further EU integration and you are against it, you can just leave.
> Why is Cuba a bigger issue for Ursula than what's happening in the EU? LAst time I checked Cuba is on a different continent and an insignificant trading partner of the EU.
Because god knows what is going to happen to American liquefied gas exports to the EU if they are fighting a war in the Caribbean.
>I am saying a closer union was what was agreed upon.
Again, that vague argument does not disprove my argument.
Does the end justify the means? Yes, or no? If yes, then what's the point of democracy and free will, if no, what's the point of the EU forcing its will on everyone?
>Also if your countrymen are pro further EU integration
What does "further EU integration" even mean? Being an even bigger bitch to clueless out of touch unelected bureaucrats in Brussels to deiced things in countries they can't find on the map, whose language they don't speak, whose economy and culture they don't understand?
> Impossible to leave now when you joined 20+ years ago, when the EU was something completely different, which now grew beyond what you signed up for, without fucking your economy. It's called a rug pull with a dead man's switch. Try to leave and we make sure we all blow up.
Translation: the benefits of being in the EU outweigh the drawbacks.
This is the crux of it. From your local parish council to the largest supranational organisation, nobody's going to be in favour of every decision made. They're still better than the alternative.
> Translation: the benefits of being in the EU outweigh the drawbacks.
Well, yes. But that WAS NOT what was voted upon. What was voted upon were specific proposals to change the EU and have closer integration.
The votes (there was more than one) had clear outcomes: "NO".
But in a democratic system that should be then of it! And it wasn't. But the truth is the EU has a very long history of overriding democratic votes, "for good reasons". Frankly, I even agree with the basic assessment there: that what the EU proposed was the best outcome and voters rejected it for bad reasons. But in a democracy that voters reject it is the final say.
And the problem with it is that if "rational" things can be forced through against the will of the voters ... it always ends the same way.
Ireland rejected. The treaty was modified to address the concerns of Irish voters. Ireland accepted.
"Ireland rejected, the treaty was modified, and the Irish government said 'despite your changes, we refuse to allow our electorate to revisit this'" doesn't sound like a better approach.
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> Impossible to leave now when you joined 20+ years ago, when the EU was something completely different, which now grew beyond what you signed up for, without fucking your economy. It's called a rug pull with a dead man's switch. Try to leave and we make sure we all blow up.
The EU was always designed to be an "ever closer union". It's literally in the Treaty of Rome from 1957 (!). This is explicitly what was signed up for. It's going a bit slow, unfortunately, but it is the core point. There's no rug being pulled. This was always the goal. It is specifically what everyone signed on to.
>The EU was always designed to be an "ever closer union".
Wow, isn't it convenient that such a vague all-encompassing paper from the past that you never voted for, can be used a justification for anything being done to you today?
What are the boundaries for that "ever closer union"? At which point it it just close enough? Or is it open ended? Would you sign an open ended contract with the bank? That wouldn't be legal.
>It's literally in the Treaty of Rome from 1957 (!)
How many Europeans alive today voted for that in 1957? Were they aware when they signed it of what it would lead to or were they duped into signing something so vague and all-encompassing that will be used to do anything against them in the future?
>This is explicitly what was signed up for.
That's the problem, it's vague and not explicit at all.
> This was always the goal.
Really? In 1957 people back then already knew that in the future they would cede their national sovereignty to a unelected bureaucrat in Brussels who would make decisions against their nation's best interest?
>It is specifically what everyone signed on to.
Who exactly is that "everyone"? I never voted for this. Neither did my parents.
There's no boundaries to "ever closer union". That's what ever closer means, definitionally.
Nobody was duped into anything, countries exercised their sovereignty to come to an agreement.
The rest of your concerns is just how literally any legislation and treaty ever works. When did you sign on to your country's constitution? What about the treaty of Bern establishing the Universal Postal Union in 1874?
Key concept here is legal succession.
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> Why is Cuba a bigger issue for Ursula than what's happening in the EU? LAst time I checked Cuba is on a different continent and an insignificant trading partner of the EU.
That's also because of unwarranted American sanctions.
Which for once isn't only Trump's fault, every American president has been happy to let the Cubans suffer for no reason.