Comment by miyoji
6 days ago
People aren't convinced by rational arguments. Someone who does not believe in god will not be convinced to believe by a proof of god's existence, and someone with faith will not become an atheist because someone debunks the proof.
The rational arguments form a structure that beliefs can hang on, but the core process of changing ones mind is not rational. Like many people, I have changed my thinking on many topics over the course of my life, and arguments that I used to find convincing I now consider to be filled with holes, and arguments I used to think were paper-thin now seem stronger than steel. You can find a rational argument for most beliefs, and you can tear down a rational argument for most beliefs.
Reason just isn't how we form our beliefs at all, it's how we convince ourselves that the things we believe are true.
> Someone who does not believe in god will not be convinced to believe by a proof of god's existence
I'm sure some atheists could be convinced. The rule "all atheists will reject evidence of God" seems false. The rule "all atheists will accept evidence of God" also seems false. Life is more complicated than that. It depends on the atheist and on the evidence.
This is not true, Atheists position is that there is no God. Agnostics position is that there may, or may not be a God.
In this case, you're talking about Agnosticism rather than Atheism.
The distinction has always been assinine.
An agnostic and atheist both live their lives as though there is no god. Because it is equally meaningless to say "there might be a god" but describe no further characteristics of such an entity, akin to "their might be faires but you can't see them, hear them, touch them and they have no effect on the world in anyway".
People trying who insist on a difference are just emotively trying to find some perceived middle ground from which they will claim intellectual superiority.
My entire point was that some people are able to change their position.
> Someone who does not believe in god will not be convinced to believe by a proof of god's existence.
But of course that's not true. I would believe in a God with proof of their existence. I simply have not encountered such proof that hold up to my standards of proof of such an extraordinary claim.
> I simply have not encountered such proof that hold up to my standards of proof of such an extraordinary claim.
And you never will. This is pretty much my point!
If the skies errupted with the sound of trumpets and an angel descended to tell me to do something, my first thought would probably be that I'm having some sort of mental break, but if the person standing next me is seeing it, too, then I'll be the first one carving some commandments or whatever. There's a perfectly achievable standard of proof for you.
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I do not believe it exists. If it is never, then it must not exist.
proofs I would accept:
(for Christianity)
Biblically accurate angels descend onto earth, to everyone, and submit themselves to scientific testing, which conclude they are made of something non-physical.
Divinity is proven to be a measurable and testable attribute of reality.
Reality warping magic, demonstrated to not be any sort of trick or technology, and limited to those devout to said religion.
God shows his ass to everyone, the only part of him that - according to the bible - won't make a human insane.
the basis of these proofs can be distilled down to some basic requirements: - It must happen in 'reality' not 'in my head'. - It must be testable, and repeatable. - It must have no 'natural/scientific' explanation. - It must be viewable by everyone.
That's not 'all' of the requirements, but regardless of which religion we are talking about: those are the common primitives.
Nothing I've encountered have met these standards. But if those standards of mine are met...
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