Maybe it gets posted every time because besides a personal believe by the person popularising this "benchmark", there is no reason to assume that certain labs aren't intentionally training to game this and every other lab at least unintentionally gets improvements for this specific combination of animal and action because the internet is full of both good and bad examples, often ranked, which does inevitably become training data.
I have shared examples of certain models by certain labs doing far better on the pelican cycling vs other, similar prompts. Just operating on a feeling that labs don't optimise for this (as mentioned, even if they don't training data is filled with these) is not solid enough that criticism shouldn't be leveraged when it comes up.
> I have shared examples of certain models by certain labs doing far better on the pelican cycling vs other, similar prompts
Please share those again!
One of the things I'm most looking forward to is a lab producing a model that creates a really great pelican riding a bicycle and then a terrible sloth riding a skateboard (or whatever).
Respectfully, did you? The comment was specific to doubting the believe simonw has that labs are not training [0] specifically for this task, which is exactly what simonw wrote in the post [1], that it is a believe of his that they don't. He did not mention any kind of evidence or any piece of information that would indicate that the commenter didn't read the blog post.
Did you read either the post or the comment it was referencing?
On the note of training on SVGs, I have seen some labs models outperform when prompted for SVGs of certain animal and action combinations (pelican on bike, panda eating burger, etc.) compared to other similarly outlandish prompts for SVG output that are not part of widely reported benchmarks, even shared evidence one of the last times this came up on here.
I'll note there's a difference between "pelicans on bikes aren't part of the training set" and "I’m still not convinced that labs are training for the benchmark".
I'm sure all sorts of crap pelican riding bicycle SVGs have ended up in the huge crawls of data that the labs feed into their pre-training steps.
What I'm questioning here is that there are labs who have sat down and deliberately tested and tweaked the performance for this particular task, independent of general model improvements.
The one exception here is Gemini, who have clearly invested a lot of effort in SVG tasks. I have no idea if my stupid benchmark influenced that decision!
Gemini have boasted about how good they are at pelicans riding bicycles, frogs on penny-farthings, giraffes driving a tiny car, ostriches on roller skates, turtles kickflipping skateboards, and dachshunds driving a stretch limousine. So if they trained for the test they did at least expand it a whole bunch! https://twitter.com/JeffDean/status/2024525132266688757
> What I'm questioning here is that there are labs who have sat down and deliberately tested and tweaked the performance for this particular task, independent of general model improvements.
We are going from pretty good pelican to jumbled mess with a similarly silly, but different prompt across multiple models from multiple labs, both Western and Eastern, both Open Weight and Closed.
Yes that's the obvious thing to do and why straightforward variants of known tests would also be treated as contaminated by anyone being even somewhat rigorous.
I don't know why the standard is is to be sure that it is happening versus it being a plausible risk of making the results useless.
Are they responding to: “I’m still not convinced that labs are training for the benchmark—if they were, I’d expect much better results.”
In my reading, "training for the benchmark" is very, very different from "this benchmark is in the training data".
Clearly not. There's a subset of HN users who rush to post this same thing every single time.
Maybe it gets posted every time because besides a personal believe by the person popularising this "benchmark", there is no reason to assume that certain labs aren't intentionally training to game this and every other lab at least unintentionally gets improvements for this specific combination of animal and action because the internet is full of both good and bad examples, often ranked, which does inevitably become training data.
I have shared examples of certain models by certain labs doing far better on the pelican cycling vs other, similar prompts. Just operating on a feeling that labs don't optimise for this (as mentioned, even if they don't training data is filled with these) is not solid enough that criticism shouldn't be leveraged when it comes up.
> I have shared examples of certain models by certain labs doing far better on the pelican cycling vs other, similar prompts
Please share those again!
One of the things I'm most looking forward to is a lab producing a model that creates a really great pelican riding a bicycle and then a terrible sloth riding a skateboard (or whatever).
I've not seen that myself yet.
3 replies →
Respectfully, did you? The comment was specific to doubting the believe simonw has that labs are not training [0] specifically for this task, which is exactly what simonw wrote in the post [1], that it is a believe of his that they don't. He did not mention any kind of evidence or any piece of information that would indicate that the commenter didn't read the blog post.
Did you read either the post or the comment it was referencing?
On the note of training on SVGs, I have seen some labs models outperform when prompted for SVGs of certain animal and action combinations (pelican on bike, panda eating burger, etc.) compared to other similarly outlandish prompts for SVG output that are not part of widely reported benchmarks, even shared evidence one of the last times this came up on here.
[0] ... incredible Simon still believes ...
[1] I’m still not convinced that labs ....
I'll note there's a difference between "pelicans on bikes aren't part of the training set" and "I’m still not convinced that labs are training for the benchmark".
I'm sure all sorts of crap pelican riding bicycle SVGs have ended up in the huge crawls of data that the labs feed into their pre-training steps.
What I'm questioning here is that there are labs who have sat down and deliberately tested and tweaked the performance for this particular task, independent of general model improvements.
The one exception here is Gemini, who have clearly invested a lot of effort in SVG tasks. I have no idea if my stupid benchmark influenced that decision!
Gemini have boasted about how good they are at pelicans riding bicycles, frogs on penny-farthings, giraffes driving a tiny car, ostriches on roller skates, turtles kickflipping skateboards, and dachshunds driving a stretch limousine. So if they trained for the test they did at least expand it a whole bunch! https://twitter.com/JeffDean/status/2024525132266688757
> What I'm questioning here is that there are labs who have sat down and deliberately tested and tweaked the performance for this particular task, independent of general model improvements.
Given the massive delta easily reproducible with some models, is it really doubtful that certain labs have not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48951229
We are going from pretty good pelican to jumbled mess with a similarly silly, but different prompt across multiple models from multiple labs, both Western and Eastern, both Open Weight and Closed.
Yes that's the obvious thing to do and why straightforward variants of known tests would also be treated as contaminated by anyone being even somewhat rigorous.
I don't know why the standard is is to be sure that it is happening versus it being a plausible risk of making the results useless.
1 reply →