Comment by nchmy
18 hours ago
I'm surprised by the "you are not allowed to be surprised, ever" rule. It puts me off of recurse entirely.
I shouldn't even need to explain why as it should be self-evident that policing/banning a completely natural and sometimes highly beneficial emotion/reaction is beyond problematic.
It seems like an XY problem - they implemented it to solve a genuine problem, without understanding the problem.
Like, the canonical example they give is
> Dan: What’s the command line?
> Carol: Wait, you’ve never used the command line?
Surely everyone can imagine at least two versions of Carol.
1. Condescending and dismissive. Indeed, that's not behaviour anyone should be tolerating.
2. Thrilled to be able to introduce someone to something new. She might follow that question up with "oh come on over here, let me show you! This will change your life." and proceed to try to teach terminal stuff. Isn't this the best sort of teacher, someone who is infectiously passionate about something?
Dan may still respond negatively to Carol2, but that's Dan's problem - he needs a therapist of some sort to address whatever insecurities he has.
Now, you might say "The rule is about FEIGNED surprise", which is Carol1. But it explicitly says
> When someone acts surprised when you don’t know something, it doesn’t matter whether they’re pretending to be surprised or actually surprised.
Then goes on to describe the version of Dan that needs therapy
> The effect is the same: the next time you have a question, you’re more likely to keep your mouth shut. An accurate name for this rule would be no acting surprised when someone doesn’t know something,
No, that's not how I or any other well-adjusted person would react.
A better name for the rule is "don't be a dick. Everyone is here to help each other learn and grow" (and there might be a separate rule/policy/resource about how people who have not yet learned how to positively and productively control their emotions - which I am not denigrating, simply pointing out reality - can seek assistance with that as well).
In the end, IT DEPENDS. But there's apparently no room for such nuance at Recurse...
There's no rule against being surprised, and especially not against _ever_ being surprised. They are asking people not to express surprise, real or not, when responding to a question, as a courtesy to the person asking. Like: Keep your surprise in check in situations when it's not helping.
I don't think that's too much to ask, just like it's generally considered preferable to not chew with your mouth open when in company, or talk to people with food in your mouth.
They even acknowledge that they expect these rules to not be followed all the time.
I'm surprised that you read it as a general prohibition of being surprised. ;)
Edit: Sorry, wrote my reply before I saw your substantial edits where you clarify your position and distinguish between "positive" and "negative" surprise. I agree there's a better way express surprise. The rule clearly wants people to avoid putting other people down by creating a feeling of "wow, how can you not know this". That's the spirit of the rule, and I guess it could be expressed better. I don't think they'd have a problem if someone managed to turn the surprise into a positive, but to do that, it's good to be mindful that it's often perceived negatively.
Sorry for the ninja edits. Writing from phone and didn't think there'd be people replying right away.
Seems like we're in agreement. But I reiterate that it's not a good rule if it should be regularly broken, for the good.
Thus, for a project that's been around for seemingly a very long time, it's hard to imagine that they haven't had ample time and feedback to vastly improve the wording of it all. Thus, they seem to be content that it expresses exactly what they want it to.
I don't think that the rule should regularly be broken. That's not what they say, and it's not what they mean. The strongest interpretation is: err on the side of not acting surprised at people's questions, because it tends to put people off asking them.
I do think you're simply reading their rule in a way that's not intended by them. Could the rule be written to convey the intent more clearly? Yes, I think so. Is it only their own responsibility how the rule is interpreted? No, I don't think so.
The hacker news guidelines ask us to:
> respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
This is good advice in general. It is your choice to pick an the interpretation that you disagree with the strongest, and subsequently use it to condemn them: "puts me off entirely", "no room for nuance", and (paraphrasing:) it's on them to prevent me from interpreting the rule in the most severe way.
No. The spirit of the rule is clear. The nuance is there. What you do with it, that is all you.
5 replies →
“No surprises” is an effective shorthand for “manage expectations”
Folks who don’t understand that are either not hired or don’t last long. Pedants won’t get past the phone screen.
> 2. Thrilled to be able to introduce someone to something new. She might follow that question up with "oh come on over here, let me show you! This will change your life." and proceed to try to teach terminal stuff. Isn't this the best sort of teacher, someone who is infectiously passionate about something?
I wouldn't expect an infectiously passionate person to start their sentence with "wait you don't know this" and instead say "let me show you!" immediately.
This rule helps me differentiate between people who are genuinely trying to help v/s those who's primary motive is to show off and then maybe help.
I think there are some situations where Carol's response would be appropriate, and some where it would not.
In general, I get your comment though. Coding is getting more and more like this.
> In the end, IT DEPENDS. But there's apparently no room for such nuance at Recurse...
"One thing that often surprises people about the social rules is that we expect people to break them from time to time."
Sounds like there's plenty of room for nuance. They're guidelines. That you spent several paragraphs considering and articulating the difference between a positive social interaction and a negative one means the guideline is probably a good one, even if they didn't bother to write several paragraphs of nuance for each point themselves (which is perfectly reasonable, because brevity has its own value).
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Rate-limit edit:
> That they haven't done so in 15+ years suggests that they think the rule is well-written.
Or it suggests they know more about what social problems actually arise in their community. Your 'vastly better' suggestion of "Don't be a dick" is so vague as to be a completely meaningless guideline, and someone reading that could easily end up doing the condescending surprise act without thinking they're a dick. The purpose of the rule is to call attention to a specific behavior they likely see often to make you think twice about it.
But the fact remains that the rule is terrible. It's not about whether they tolerate transgressions (they'd better). Its that the rule SHOULD BE broken, regularly. If a rule should be regularly broken, it's not a good rule.
I wrote a brief alternative that serves vastly better and doesn't need paragraphs of nuanced explanation, and I didn't even put much thought into it.
That they haven't done so in 15+ years suggests that they think the rule is well-written.