Comment by milkshakes
1 day ago
assume you are a "second class lab" and you are in fact making progress by distilling the results of the frontier labs' efforts.
what is the end game for this strategy?
if the frontier labs shut down, or stop releasing to the public, and there's noting left to distill, how will you progress?
This line of thinking makes no sense because it assumes that labs that distill from frontier models are doing nothing else. It's the classic "the Chinese can only copy" mentality, and it's going to end poorly for American companies.
I'm pretty sure that all labs are distilling each others' LLMs, maybe apart from Anthropic and OpenAI. It would be stupid not to do it, because it's cheap and effective. But that's not the only thing they're doing. If you think K3 and GLM-5.2 got this good only from distilling frontier models, you're not paying attention to Chinese labs' publications.
i never assumed that, and i do keep up with the publications. i'm also not saying it's a dumb thing to do! what i am saying is that empirically, it appears that distillation of a more advanced model is a required first step for them to train a borderline competitive, cheaper model. in effect, their training is subsidized by the frontier labs.
if this were not the case, then we would be observing chinese models that far surpass frontier models in capabilities, rather than "almost as good, but much cheaper", and we would be having a very different conversation. what happens to these efforts when the subsidy is cut off?
> empirically, it appears that distillation of a more advanced model is a required first step
I see no evidence for that.
> if this were not the case, then we would be observing chinese models that far surpass frontier models
It's pretty clear that the primary reason for the difference is budget and compute availability. Chinese labs have at least an order of magnitude less money than Anthropic and OpenAI.
> what happens to these efforts when the subsidy is cut off?
They will continue making progress as they do now, minus the benefits of distillation.
4 replies →
Distillation from a teacher model solves the self-start problem, that is, building a model to the point where it reason coherently. Without distillation, solving self-start is incredibly difficult since it requires millions of high quality training samples. Creating that kind of dataset takes an enormous amount of effort.
Once a model becomes competent enough to perform complex reasoning, a teacher model is no longer necessary. The model can now reason about its own behavior and build a better version of itself through recursive self-improvement (RSI).
Kimi K3 is capable of RSI.
In public with budgets that don't risk destroying the American economy presumably. Yes it may be slower.
> with budgets
and what will fund these budgets exactly? inference is cheap, distillation is cheap, training is what's expensive.
Same people who fund linux kernel development. A coalition of companies that find it useful.
Presumably the US military / NSA.
9 replies →
There doesn't need to be progress at this point. Some models even from 1 or more years ago are useful for some purposes