Comment by mrothroc
8 days ago
Drilling into the original article where Jarred explained the reasoning behind the change, It's pretty clear that under zig the team was doing things by hand that are automatic in rust.
Humans and agents share one thing: they are both non-deterministic. He talks about the issue of tracking memory lifecycles manually in zig so it can be explicitly freed. As expected, this leads to a long list of bugs where people missed things.
Rust does this automatically. It removes an entire class of errors from his backlog. From an engineering management perspective, this looks like a pretty good trade.
The bonus here is that compiler errors are exactly the kind of deterministic guardrail you need to put around coding agents. Claude works really well if you give it a way to test for correctness and "make it compile" is a pretty good target.
There's a general version of this: the artifact you expose plus the test you run on it. Deterministic tests turn stochastic output into a hard guarantee. Wrote it up here if useful: https://michael.roth.rocks/blog/verification-surface/
Zig (like C) is simply not a good language to use if you're going to do many small allocations with uncorrelated lifetimes. To write robust Zig (or C) code, you must manage lifetimes yourself, for example by grouping allocations on an arena or by having fixed buffers of "things".
You can just do that, and then Zig is really no less robust than Rust. But if you want to do "managed language" style allocation patterns (like what llms generally prefer), it doesn't make sense to use it.
Grouped and arena allocations work really well in Zig. For awhile, we tried to use this pattern almost everywhere in Bun but it gets really tricky when there’s some GC-managed memory and you want to free things incrementally to reduce RSS. Also, using arenas for arrays that grow wastes memory a lot since it keeps every previous version around (mimalloc arenas are slightly better for this)
Grouped allocations works especially well in parsers & ASTs where the lifetime is very bounded. Since the Rust rewrite, we still use arenas for Bun’s parsers and the bundler but not a ton elsewhere.
> using arenas for arrays that grow wastes memory a lot since it keeps every previous version around
Not if you use segmented arrays
https://danielchasehooper.com/posts/segment_array/
> You can just do that, and then Zig is really no less robust than Rust.
If you just don't write bugs, then yes all languages are equally robust, including assembly.
Zig, like C, is simply not a robust language. I don't know why this feels like something contentious? It's clearly not intended to be robust?
Zig is intended to be as robust as it can be as long as it doesn’t implicitly add code (no destructors that run code you didn’t explicitly call), or increase compiler complexity and compilation time.
I don’t think it makes sense to say Zig is or isn’t intended to be robust in general. Like, we don’t say Rust isn’t robust since it doesn’t add dependent types and general purpose static verification that can do more general proofs. It’s focused on eliminating one class of memory bugs in particular, exactly the class of bugs that are the biggest challenge for software like Bun, and other software with complex lifetimes (it originated from Mozilla and Rust is perfect for browsers)
Zig is intended to be robust for software like TigerBeetle, or the Zig compiler itself, where memory lifetimes are simple.
I’d say the focus on built in tests, fuzzing, debug memory allocators and safe mode shows that Zig is absolutely intended to be robust, within the scope of what the language aims to be. Far more than C itself or most of its popular compilers ever did.
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Realistically much of the most reliable software in the world was written in C. Robustness is more so a function of coding style and engineering practice than it is of the programming language chosen.
Of course you could argue that on average, most programmers are not going to have the right practices and skill, so on average you should prefer Rust. But that's unrelated to the argument I was making, and in any case not a very interesting point in my opinion.
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Above poster is talking about thinking in terms of grouped lifetimes and bulk allocations/deallocations, which is better for performance, and makes Rust borrow checking and other RAII style features pointless as they don't add any safety benefits. This video completely changed the way I think, and I subsequently moved on from Rust: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt1KNDmOYqA
the buffer managemnt is just different pattern and style of code thats more low level. when you care about performance and cpu cache, you have to make sure that actual physical memory gets computed at same time as other memory near it so there is less latency.
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> Zig, like C, is simply not a robust language
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -- Carl Sagan
> You can just do that, and then Zig is really no less robust than Rust.
That's just it, using Zig required more rigorous engineering than the Bun team were capable of.
People tried to "just do that" (write their programs in a memory safe way) in C and other languages with manual memory management for decades, and we have countless vulnerabilities that prove this simply doesn't work. That's why newer languages, with the notable exception of Zig, prefer more advanced memory management methods.
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That's like saying that they should have used assembler but they just weren't capable of it. It's personal insult dressed up as a nonsensical technical argument.
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It matters what software you're writing. When it's a JavaScript runtime, it's not as if you can get away with preallocating all the memory you'll need like some games used to do.
Is engineering capability the issue, or time pressure/constraint?
So it's reducible to a simple matter of inferiority vs superiority?
I think the main issue is that Bun relies heavily on existing C++ libraries like JavascriptCore, and these require RAII and ref-counting semantics from C++ that are closer to Rust than Zig.
You could write a JS engine with Zig-like idioms (arena allocation, static initialization), but that would require re-writing the whole JS engine from the ground-up (though I would definitely be interested in it if someone actually tries to do it!)
> You could write a JS engine with Zig-like idioms (arena allocation, static initialization)
Arena allocators & static initializers are not novel. You'll find them in high performance C++ projects as well, such as LLVM or JavaScriptCore. But arena allocators have the quite significant limitation that they only help when everything being allocated in them have approximately the same lifetime. So they don't help when you need to allocate memory to provide the native implementation of a JavaScript object, for example (eg, FFI).
> You could write a JS engine with Zig-like idioms (arena allocation, static initialization)
Could you actually? That seems like a bad fit for a JS engine to me. Predictable memory requirements are great when you can have them, perhaps you can avoid complexity then, but for a JS engine?
Why not using Swift?
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This reads like cope because you're re-inventing RAII from first principles.
I cannot take this seriously as tutorials on robust Zig Allocation Pools will store a deinit method for each item within the pool, so when the pool deinits, all internal objects can be deinit'd.
That is just RAII & dtors from first principles, except with extra overhead of manually storing fat pointers yourself (and the bugs that come with this). Instead of using a language with builtin guarantees & optimizations around handling this so your object pools don't need to carry around a bunch of function pointers. C++ has aggressive de-virtualization passes so at runtime a lot of the 'complex object hierarchies' can be flattened to purely static function calls.
This is a general problem with destructors, you can't "batch delete" objects. To free a lot of stuff you're required to go pointer by pointer through the tree to clean up each object. To get real performance gains from pools you can't have per-object/subobject custom cleanup code.
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I've argued elsewhere some things that are wrong with RAII and C++ objects in general.
Here I would just like to mention that if you have to rely on "de-virtualization" passes, you're in a miserable situation architecturally. If you have code where the overhead of virtual function calls might be too much to pay, don't do virtual functions then. End of story.
To deconstruct a pool of objects, I don't see what should ever be wrong with a function pointer. The overhead of loading the function pointer will get divided by the number of objects being deconstructed. Care to explain what's the issue here?
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Zig is always _less_ robust than rust. Even if you have a single allocation you can always forget to free it.
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> Rust does this automatically.
A garbage collected language does this automatically. Rust still requires thinking about and tracking memory lifecycles, but the borrow checker will complain and keep you from doing it wrong. That's why LLMs like Rust. It gives immediate feedback on what to fix. By-default constant reference parameters helps prevent major performance problems.
You're getting confused between lifetimes (the static analysis that prevents use after free and similar errors) and lifecycles (more commonly discussed under the heading of ownership) which determines when objects (and thus memory) are allocated and deallocated.
Ownership is automatic. You don't have to explicitly drop things when they go out of scope. (although the responsibility for that is split between the compiler and the library code).
Lifetimes are not automatic, but also have no effect on memory allocation. They are purely a static analysis path and you can make a functioning rust compiler that completely ignores lifetimes.
> You're getting confused between lifetimes (the static analysis that prevents use after free and similar errors) and lifecycles (more commonly discussed under the heading of ownership) which determines when objects (and thus memory) are allocated and deallocated. Ownership is
That's a semantic distinction which does not matter in the point OP is making. And contrasting rust static approach to general GC.
It’s my understanding that bun was ported to unsafe rust, so even these gains would require additional effort on the team’s part, right?
Unsafe Rust doesn't automagically disable typesystem (& borrow checker, but lifetime are a sort of types).
Once raw pointer is turned into a T, &T or &mut T, the borrow checker is on.
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You don't need to rehash the same old argument. Runtime memory management is forgiving but also inferior in a lot of ways to compiled stuff that works with memory deterministically.
Garbage collection is a method to make programming easier, not to make the resulting program better.
> Rust does this automatically. It removes an entire class of errors from his backlog.
Even with the huge amount of "unsafe" rust currently in bun? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48967630
You think it’ll all stay there?
Of course they’ll iterate and remove the unsafe bits which were necessary for the transition
Except the transition was never necessary. Yet another Anthropic marketing effort so they could claim a shallow victory [0].
[0] https://andrewkelley.me/post/my-thoughts-bun-rust-rewrite.ht...
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As opposed to every commit abd line of code being unsafe? They use a lot of C/C++ libraries with their own code so unsafe isn't even a a problem in most places they use it.
Fun fact, unsafe does not let you turn off the borrow checker in Rust: https://steveklabnik.com/writing/you-can-t-turn-off-the-borr...
"Fun fact", it lets you largely circumvent the borrow checker by creating arbitrary lifetimes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48974824
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I thought that this was just an initial translation to unsafe rust in which they haven't actually gained any of those benefits yet, although presumably they can go there quickly now.
> He talks about the issue of tracking memory lifecycles manually in zig so it can be explicitly freed. As expected, this leads to a long list of bugs where people missed things.
Yes, and again the "you're holding it wrong" people or "you are not a good enough developer" people will try to do juggling with a chainsaw and lose a couple of fingers in the process
Claude Code's endorsement (and real-world testing) speaks louder than internet discussions that are at this point 30 years old (and probably more)
> "make it compile" is a pretty good target.
But only as far as "make it compile" is a good predictor of runtime behavior. In C++ for instance, I can "make it compile" and it still crashes at runtime or does other undesirable things.
I seem to recall this Rust rewrite is all "unsafe" meaning it really doesn't automatically eliminate those issues.
Relevant passage from Jarred's post:
"At the time of writing, about 4% of Bun's Rust code sits inside an unsafe block (~13,000 unsafe keywords across ~27,000 lines / ~780,000 lines), and 78% of those blocks are a single line — a pointer that came from C++, or one call into a C library. I expect this number to go down over time as we refactor from a faithful Zig port (which had no greppable unsafe keyword) to idiomatic Rust, but we are going to continue using C & C++ libraries like JavaScriptCore so it will always have more unsafe than pure Rust projects."
Relative "number of unsafe keywords" or "lines inside unsafe blocks" isn't a good metric.
It's unsafe to call a C library that gives you a raw pointer, that can be a single line. It's unsafe to use that pointer, that could be a second single line. Carrying that pointer around, the data structures it's in, that's all safe, and doesn't implicate lifetime checking at all, so Rust will let you do silly things with the actual lifetime.
A better metric would be absolute unsafe keywords (because each carries a need to review), or "code in a module that uses unsafe anywhere" vs total code, because module boundaries isolate unsafe.
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Why not porting JavaScriptCore?
what is surprising about it? The way porting works has alway been first doing a faithful pass before going back to address impedance mismatches case by case. You would do that even when porting things manually, let alone in a super risky completely automated bulk migration.
Good thing there are tons of languages that do that out of the box, and which are frankly quite fast.
Rust is the clear winner of LLM era, you can't say otherwise.
i found the same thing with Rust, verification steps are really helpful for speed and correctnesss
LLMs catch memory bugs quite easily in my experience.
All of this is just a (succesful) marketing stunt by Anthropic.
Ai slop
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