Comment by maratc
1 day ago
The point missing in the article is that, in order to enter the US, one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.
There are two options: visa-free with the biometric data passing on the wire (no hassle), or visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).
As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now. Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport") and only on arrival, in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.
What's unclear to me here is this: under this new scheme does the USA get access to the biometric data of people not travelling to the USA?
From the analysis linked in TFA:
"The automated query can be based on: * Identity information included in the application or in travel documents, such as name, date of birth, national ID number, and/or * the fingerprint of an individual."
Sounds like they could send requests to that computer system just based on publicly available information on a person like name and date of birth, even if the person never applied for a visa or tried to enter the US.
Well, a national ID number isnt usually publicly available info, even if it can be obtained by the US government through illicit means.
But yeah, it does sound that way, but certainly not clear cut to me what the situation is. I.e. does the agreement involve clauses about what to do if this is abused? Do we have a way to detect if theyre using this on non-travellers? Etc.
8 replies →
Only the people who travel to the US should be included in this farce and vice versa the other way…
It changes the nature of the scheme quite a bit
This all reminds me about how RealID was vital to secure us from terrorism, and it took 20 years to get it in place... with no significant terrorist actions in that timeframe.
IMHO this level of tracking ain't worth the safety gained. Seems like safety gain is just the excuse at this point.
A national ID system (standard in effectively all European countries) is table stakes for state capacity. I find the RealID opposition baffling.
The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. (Apparently Andorra doesn't either.)
You might consider it part of the Anglosphere mentality as Canada, the US, Australia, the Bahamas, and New Zealand don't have national ID.
I've never understood the problem that RealID is supposed to solve.
How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant?
In the US, we like to reduce state capacity. Helps limit the damage bad actors can do when they are in power.
4 replies →
[dead]
And also according to the DHS is apparently now insufficient to prove citizenship to vote, i.e. goal posts moved.
Is your RealID different? I’ve had one for ages and am not a US citizen. I can’t see how it could be proof of citizenship if I, a non-citizen, has one.
Not to mention that to get around RealID with flights, you just have to pay $45 and you're good to go. Since we all know that bad actors don't have access to that sort of money...
Can you expand on this? How can you board a flight without realID for $45?
3 replies →
Edit: sorry, I misunderstood the post.
I think a better way of describing it would be, someone broke into your house. The police said they'd patrol it, but it would take 20 years to set up. In those 20 years, no-one broke into your house. You might suspect they had other reasons for wanting to patrol outside your house.
The parent post is saying that the officer didn't show up for 20 years, with no burglaries in your neighborhood in between.
1 reply →
> Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once
Once for each arrival.
Not my experience the last time I entered. I travelled with a friend for whom it was his first time visiting the US. He was fingerprinted, I wasn’t (I was fingerprinted a while ago on one of my previous trips.)
I have gotten fingerprinted every time i arrive, before i got a green card and after i got a green card. Not sure if its related to something else, country of origin or country im traveling from etc.
5 replies →
Same here, went in 2019, got fingerprinted, and went again in 2021 and 2025, and they didn't even care about my ESTA, they just waved me through.
The TSA agent asked me the usual questions about where I was staying, how long I was staying, I replied, and despite having printed just about everything out, he just waved me through.
The closest I got was a "random inspection" in an airport, and the TSA agents asked for our passports and to go through our luggage, but as soon as we flashed our Danish passports they lost all interest and just waved us through.
The point of taking biometics is they can check if the same person is travelling on the same passport each subsequent visit.
Sometimes they rely on just image matching, and sometimes they ask for an additional finger scan ( but not normally all fingers of all hands like first registration ).
So perhaps if you have a generic looking face, or have changed your appearance since the first visit you are more likely to be fingerprinted.
What is the point of them taking the fingerprints at all, if they don't verify them on entry?
No. I haven't had to do it in at least two years and I travel here frequently on an EU passport.
not for US citizens at least, whereas I get fingerprinted entering and exiting as an EU citizen in the EU.
That's weird. When I enter France from outside Schengen they don't fingerprint me, and I'm not even a European citizen.
5 replies →
Also worth nothing that if you’ve verified your ID on LinkedIn or anything that uses Persona or some other flavour of Palantir - the US already has all this data and much more.
I hate all this biometric scanning on all sides. As an American it makes me not want to visit the EU to avoid being scanned, and I'd understand the other way too if an EU member was visiting the us.
In the US there have been notorious mistakes of using biometrics to falsely recognize an unknown criminal. Does this happen in the EU too?
It's probably too late but we should try to get rid of this.
> In the US there have been notorious mistakes of using biometrics to falsely recognize an unknown criminal. Does this happen in the EU too?
This my major concern with biometrics and DNA databases. It makes the cops lazy. "Subjects fingerprints and DNA was found on the crime scene, so he's clearly the murderer". That flips the evidence around, suddenly "I" have to prove I'm innocent as opposed to the law proving I'm guilty.
If you can simply collect all DNA and fingerprints from a crime scene, look it up in a database and compile a list of suspects, it also eliminates the possibility that the real perpetrator didn't leave DNA or fingerprints.
Sure, DNA has its use, like "here's the murder weapon, and it has the suspects DNA and fingerprints on it". It's not a guarantee, but it's a closer match.
As for "does that happen in Europe as well", unfortunately yes. There have been cases where the police have found fingerprints and DNA and announced they had the suspect they were looking for, only for said person to be cleared weeks or months later.
As a general rule, DNA and fingerprints cannot be the sole evidence in EU courts. The law will need find more evidence before they can convict you. Also, no death penalty, and "lifetime" in the EU is usually around 10 years, so not a lot of people are found innocent after 30 years.
I suspect that false imprisonment/recognition cases are lessened with biometrics, not increased. I absolutely believe you can point me to individual cases though.
Your DNA and fingerprints are literally everywhere you go, and they don't decay as soon as you leave. Hell, even passing close by a person can transfer your DNA to their clothes.
If the cops have a DNA Database, they "just" need to collect all DNA from a crime scene to compile a list of suspects, and by doing so, they're flipping the question of guilt around, you're no longer innocent until proven guilty, but guilty until proven innocent. You now have to prove you didn't "do it".
All the biometrics technologies are not perfect, e.g. there is a small chance of false positive, be it fingerprints, DNA, hair analysis, etc.
Veritasium had a nice video about this biometrics errors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvcesPWvUIc
How could random prints be falsely linked to me if my prints are not in a database? It can only happen if they are.
2 replies →
>EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now on every arrival and departure.
This world is very depressing. I think this may be my last year on the planet.
No, if you don’t change your passport you only have to scan your fingerprints once in the EU.
If you have a recent EU passport (like 6-8 years), biometrics like fingerprints are already in the chip, and you won't need to be fingerprinted upon arrival or departure, at least in theory, I wouldn't be surprised if some bureaucrat decided that the passport data can't be trusted and we'll fingerprint everybody anyway.
We're not talking about people who have an EU passport, we're talking about those who want to enter the EU with a non-EU passport. These people get fingerprinted on entry (and some of them on exit too) since 2025.
I have just returned from the EU last week and I have been fingerprinted twice — once on entry and once on exit.
The US passport holders get fingerprinted on entry only, as I’ve heard.
Is that good or bad? Maybe a naive thought but the first I think is that check every time is to check biometrics matches with what is in the passport without storing them, checking only once mean your picture and fingerprint is stored a central place and is used in combination to later verify that the passport is yours
3 replies →
Ok, weird, I don’t know how the system works then. My wife is Colombian and on her last entry she just scanned her passport and that was it.
1 reply →
i just traveled to the EU last week and you're wrong, got fingerprinted on entrance and exit
So let the people who want to go to the US do that and don't send data from the vast majority of people who will never visit the US there. It's claimed that only data of traveler's will be retrieved by the US but it's not 2012 anymore, we all know better.
Both the USA and the EU are doing Evil here. However had, this is not solely confind to biometric data only - this is about selling data to outside agencies, so the EU betrays EU citizens here.
If the US gets the data anyway, why the need for access?
It's to validate that the fingerprints of the person arriving are the same as the fingerprints of the person who got the passport.
Which you don't need to do, because the fingerprints are in the passport (cryptographically secure so only an authorized reader can access them, and only when able to OCR the inside of the passport). They're signed by your issuing government, so they're much harder to forge than the physical document.
The fingerprints in the passport can't do that?
32 replies →
I would imagine it to match that the biometrics on file with the biometrics presented at the border to catch forgeries?
Also think espionage/intelligence - those passports won't be forgeries (as they will gov issued), but there will be people travelling around the world with multiple "identities" shall we say, and this is going to make all that much harder.
Is there a high incidence of forgeries?
1 reply →
It's not forgery so much as people using the same passport. People look similar.
1 reply →
To reduce friction of traveling to the US obviously.
No more waiting in a long immigration queue?
3 replies →
You don’t get fingerprints collected on departure, just on arrival. Unless you go through automated gates maybe?
Not my experience: I’ve been fingerprinted on both the arrival and the departure. There was no automatic gate on the departure, just an officer.
US passport holders only get fingerprinted on the arrival, as I’ve heard.
wrong
> in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.
You absolutely don't. If you've done it once on your passport/ID you don't need to do it again. And infact there are fast track autonomous lanes that you can just scan your EU passport with biometric chip and fly through. (In theory, there's always idiots who don't realise they don't have it)
People without EU citizenship also enter EU.
Recent changes to EES system have been a disaster, and as op has pointed out, people do have to scan their biometrics more than once coming from a non-EU country. In some cases even if you are a EU resident in case the airport has no specific queues.
> Recent changes to EES system have been a disaster
How ?
> People do have to scan their biometrics more than once coming from a non-EU country.
If the data hasn't had time to propagate then it's just a flag that you need to do it.
> In some cases even if you are a EU resident in case the airport has no specific queues.
Yes, if I arrive in Firenze airport there is maybe 2 people working on the border, if I'm in the Schengen, I don't even need to be checked. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
> People without EU citizenship also enter EU.
Clearly I'm not talking about these cases. You're not from the EU, you need to follow the rules. Sorry.
I just visited Italy. We absolutely passed through biometric scans on arrival and departure from FCO (US passports, vacation so no paper visa).
And then again at DUB outbound (US pre-clearance, so the normal Global Entry kiosk).
All of this was expected. The only thing that surprise me was there was no passport check or any other custom/immigration at Dublin on the inbound leg. We just walked from the arrival gate to the departure gate and that was that.
> And then again at DUB outbound (US pre-clearance, so the normal Global Entry kiosk).
Pre clearance from the US means nothing for Ireland, it's also not Schengen.
> The only thing that surprise me was there was no passport check or any other custom/immigration at Dublin on the inbound leg.
Because you've done it on your outbound. Ireland is also a bit more relaxed, but at the same time they can randomely ask you for your papers.
> from the arrival gate to the departure gate
If you don't pass the control, if I'm not wrong you'll never need to be rechecked. The only place it has happened to me within EU was between Ireland -> Germany -> Greece. Probably because Ireland isn't Schengen
Ireland is not in Schengen, so you were doing an international-to-international transfer. You normally don't have to go through immigration and customs for those, unless there are specific legal requirements or the airport is poorly organized.
1 reply →
Dublin is amazingly chill with passport/visa/immigration.
I once needed an actual stamp in my passport, and the agent literally apologized to me for taking up the space. I thought she might be messing with me, but not, entirely serious.
With the introduction of EES system (whose implementation was completed only a few months ago), the full data of non-EU citizens gets collected the first time we enter the EU and then we have to verify it every subsequent time.
Not much of a hassle at airports due to the availability of self-service kiosks, somewhat of a hassle when crossing with a car, and infuriatingly annoying when using a mass transit option like a bus or a train where everyone has to step outside and wait in line to do that, adding about 20-30 minutes to the border crossing.
We used the EES system in Italy, I think (cattle gates with passport scan and photo). The line was still pretty long and slow. Mostly because people couldn’t figure out how to get their passport scanned properly or they weren’t looking at the camera or any number of other things that there were signs explaining what to do and people just couldn’t be bothered doing it correctly
I wish it was 20-30 minutes. Try 2-3 hours.
2 replies →
> in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport")
I’ve entered the US something like 150 times over 20 years. Visa free (ESTA) and on a B1 tourist visa.
I’ve been fingerprinted and photographed every single time.
As has been discussed elsewhere, this sounds more like you are flagged than SOP.
Never had a problem, never any hint or talk that anything is amiss. Always extremely routine.
2 replies →
> visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).
Since US-issued visas are multiple entry for 10yrs, it's relatively not a hassle at all.
Some of them but definitely not all of them.
I guess you have never had to hunt for the online queue at the embassy and never had to travel (potentially hundreds of miles) for the interview at that embassy. In which case, lucky you! However "it's not a hassle for me" is different from "it's not a hassle at all".
>As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now.
Does this also apply if you arrive by dinghy?
We must close this dinghy gap!
With the major distinction being that a lot of Europeans have absolutely no intention of ever visiting the United States, a country with a history of sometimes more, sometimes less hostility and aggressive intelligence agencies.
If you want to visit a hellhole, go through the hassle. But don't hand out all of our data just because you want to do joyrides.
Can't see where "the major distinction" lies. It's also true that a lot of US citizens have absolutely no intention of ever visiting Europe -- as to hostilities, well the last two World Wars didn't exactly start in the US.
Good, so we can agree that the minor hassle for the minority to get a slightly slower immigration line at the airport does not outweigh privacy rights for the majority.
BTW: Where, and when, those wars started is a splendid way for historians to spend an afternoon discussing.
The point is that after 1945, the US never stopped fighting wars all over the world, using euphemisms sometimes, sometimes slogans, but it always was war.
Flew into CDG two days ago. US citizens. Passport control did not take fingerprints from any of us.
> one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.
Standard practice everywhere in Asia.
I’m just annoyed at all the visa-free claims while they charge you and you need a pre-approval anyway.
[dead]
You missed the third option: don't go to the US.
You missed a fourth option: renounce your European citizenship
... or to EU, or to UK, or to anywhere at all. Just stay at home.
Obligatory reference to "Remain Indoors" sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnd1jKcfBRE
What if home is one of those places? :panic:
There's a third option - Not going to the US. It is my preferred option.
Virtue signal received.
Does the EU really collect that, or only sometimes? I know the EU reserves the right to collect all that, but do they in practice?
I haven't been to the EU in a decade, but last time I was there I was standing in the customs line for non-EU residents and someone official saw my US passport in hand and directed me to the much shorter/faster EU citizens line. I walked right through customs without being checked at all.
The last few trip I've taken through Europe this year have changed to the new fingerprinting system.
Its changed in the last year or so. Officially it started in October 2025, it's been a bit of a disaster in terms of implementation. It's called the Entry/Exit System (EES)
I've had my fingerprints taken every time I've been to the US, although not always all the fingers every time, presumably on subsequent visits if you have passport + right hand matches, they don't bother scanning left hand or thumbs.
I've certainly had the full scan on multiple occasions though.
Also good to know that EES is implemented by the private company Thales.
1 reply →
Yes they have biometric collection stations now.
10 years ago I walked right past the French immigration officer by accident because I didn't know where I was going. He yelled at me to get back in line, quickly stamped my passport and then shooed my along. EU has become a lot more like the US. I'd probably been detained if I had done that in the US. Last year visiting Switzerland they had these machines that auto adjust a camera to your height and there was no way you were going past the barriers by accident so you are getting your photo taken.
Things have changed in the last 10 years. I recalled from 2016, while some countries like Sweden were super strict about entry/departure (lady manually counted number of days on passport) others had been so lax it was comical: France would take one quick glance at you and stamp the passport, Ireland would at least test if you could answer a simple question with the stamp already pre positioned on the passport upon answering said question.
I presume this electronic system finally accounts for all of these differences and provides a minimum standard for exit/entry. Now it being digitized there is no wiggle room on exit/entry. Frankly with how lousy US exit/entry seems for foreigners, I don't mind the EU wanting to maintain strict standards for visitors to their borders as well. I wouldn't even mind them being extra rough on us Americans. Its totally understandable. Preferably take all the US diplomat passports to a back room as well while they are at it.
About the same time ago I walked out of the airport in Tel Aviv and a military guy with an assault rifle asked to see my passport. This was after having gone through passport and customs checks inside of course. :)
> Now it being digitized there is no wiggle room on exit/entry.
Yes. Because the primary issue is it was too easy to fly under the radar once you were in the Schengen zone.
Also in 2026 there are security threats which means tighter borders is a necessity.
Clearly in 2026, the easiest way to achieve compliance at all Schengen borders accross 29 countries is to digitise it, including biometrics.
Yes, to put it politely, there have been "teething issues" in its implementation. But given the sheer scale of the change, that is only to be expected. I think any of us working in tech would agree that it would be delusional to think such a thing would be perfect from day zero.
1 reply →
The EU is very sporadic. I walked straight into Sweden from a flight from Iraq and customs was not even there, and passport control waved everyone through with the most cursory of glances.
I'm not sure the customs official knows where you came from (unless they explicitly ask, of course), because in my experience normally you get off the airplane and join a common queue. I think your passport counts a lot more when it comes to how strict the scrutiny is going to be. I'm assuming you're American, if you had an Iraqi passport, maybe you would have to answer a few more questions.
Not the EU, but I once accidentally entered Switzerland in the Zürich airport. The passport counter was unmanned and the doorway next to it was open, so I assumed there is another checkpoint somewhere further.
When a guy started chasing after me 30 seconds later I realized my assumption was wrong. But there really wasn't a way to know.