Comment by Dove
2 days ago
When I was in grad school, I had the opportunity to take a course from my adviser in which he discussed his current research and some open questions. It was a relatively accessible subject area and the questions were sometimes easy enough that we could meaningfully contribute.
On one particular Friday afternoon, he stated a conjecture that he hoped was true, and invited us to try to help him prove or disprove it. It was the sort of thing that he really wanted to be true; he liked things smooth and beautiful. I, on the other hand, hoped it was false as I like the weird and exceptional in mathematics. It was also the case that I had absolutely no command of the sort of machinery that one would use to prove such a thing, but I could certainly look for a counterexample.
I learned on Monday that he had spent the entire weekend trying and failing to prove it. I, on the other hand, had put all my energy into finding a counterexample and had one within an hour.
My single (quite small) contribution to mathematical research was a counterexample because it was all I could do. The story does illustrate that it can be helpful to have people with different tools, hopes, and motivations working on a problem, though. I was not, and will never be, even a shadow of that great mathematiciam I studied under, but on that occasion, I had reason to look in a different direction than he did.
> It was also the case that I had absolutely no command of the sort of machinery that one would use to prove such a thing, but I could certainly look for a counterexample.
Hm, as a mathematician, my experience feels opposite. A proof would be an adaptation of a proof I know, some tweaking it here and there. A counterexample would require some deep understanding of the structure of the objects involved, which frequently is beyond my comprehension.
But probably this is because I think of quite abstract objects which are harder to grasp. For numbers or polynomials, this would be the other way round.
We were studying geometry - my adviser was the great Branko Grünbaum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branko_Gr%C3%BCnbaum
The conjecture had to do with whether one convex polygon could be continuously deformed into another while remaining convex, under certain conditions and constraints. The answer turns out to be no, but surprise and disappointment are understandable reactions to that outcome. It was indeed much more practical for a young grad student to look for a clever misbehaving polygon than to try to prove something about all of them at once.
How interesting I was just reading yesterday his paper "An enduring error" about how we have been miscounting the Archimedean solids for two thousand years.
But also, for this conjecture to be wrong is quite surprising to me. Intuitively I would think any convex polygon to be topologically equivalent to a circle, and any convex n-gon should be deformable into its regular version, then back to the other one…
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Thanks! It makes sense.
I think the asymmetry depends on the representation
> On one particular Friday afternoon, he stated a conjecture that he hoped was true, and invited us to try to help him prove or disprove it.
This kind of professor/researcher/teacher needs more praise. One of the first engineering courses I took when I started out in higher education was taught by such a person.
Maybe it's just me, but I never felt so welcomed and included during my time in higher education as when that lecturer told a bunch of first-year students "here are some things we haven't figured out which you can help with, let me know if you come up with something". It was inspiring and a great introduction to what's otherwise a rather dull first couple of years of academia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Dantzig
> During his study in 1939, Dantzig solved two unsolved problems in statistics due to a misunderstanding. Near the beginning of a class, Professor Neyman wrote two problems on the blackboard. Dantzig arrived late and assumed that they were a homework assignment. According to Dantzig, they "seemed to be a little harder than usual", but a few days later he handed in completed solutions for both problems, still believing that they were an assignment that was overdue.[4][6] Six weeks later, an excited Neyman eagerly told him that the problems he had solved were two of the most famous unsolved problems in statistics.[2][4] He had prepared one of Dantzig's solutions for publication in a mathematical journal.[7] This story spread and was used as a motivational lesson demonstrating the power of positive thinking. Over time, some facts were altered, but the basic story persisted in the form of an urban legend and as an introductory scene in the 1997 film Good Will Hunting.[6]
This is probably part of why machines are doing so well at counterexamples. They have no aesthetic commitment to the conjecture and no embarrassment about producing something ugly
That's not why.
It's because counterexamples are easy compared to proofs which require new mathematics.
GenAI is great at combining existing things in new ways (interpolation). It's terrible at creating new things from scratch (extrapolation).
This is the wrong way to think about mathematical (or any other kind of) creativity in my opinion. In the extremely high-dimensional space of "ideas" (whatever that means) there are almost certainly profound ideas that are the interpolation of existing knowledge, i.e. the curse of dimensionality. It's not at all clear that you need to extrapolate from existing knowledge to be creative.
I really don't think that's true. Of course after the fact a counter example looks easy. Because look at it, it's obviously that it doesn't work. But that disregards the process of finding it. That requires great creativity(or computational resources if the problem is tractable at all).
>GenAI is great at combining existing things in new ways (interpolation). It's terrible at creating new things from scratch (extrapolation).
I think you believe a fallacy about how human cognition works if you think we actually do something different than interpolation
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I don’t think that’s true. Lots of mathematicians excel at (and revel in) finding weird counterexamples and love the strangeness of it all. John H Conway being my favourite- Look up the Conway knot[1] or the Conway base 13 function[2] for famous examples.
Ugliness is in the eye of the beholder. Lots of counterexamples are very beautiful. For example, the Dirichlet function (f(x) = 1 if x is rational, 0 otherwise) is a source of very beautiful counterexamples. Eg it is discontinuous everywhere but f restricted to only rational numbers is continuous on all rationals and likewise f restricted to irrationals is continuous on the set of irrationals (R-Q).
[1] The Conway knot has 11 crossings yet shares the same Alexander polynomial as the “unknot” which has no crossings at all. It took 50 years to decide the question of whether it has a basic property known as “sliceness” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_knot
[2] Conway’s base 13 function Was invented as a counterexample to the converse of the intermediate value theorem. That is, it satisfies the intermediate value property while being everywhere discontinuous (which breaks my brain completely) https://digitalresearch.bsu.edu/mathexchange/wp-content/uplo...
This reminds me of the Go Grandmaster speaking out after losing to AlphaGo, that the model has no sense of "aesthetic play", as long as it would lead to a win within the rules.
I thought there was a lot of buzz about AI creativity after the infamous move 37 in that series?
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if humans could do it, it would be called beautiful. defining something to be ugly is cope
They're trained on human data. I would expect them to emulate human biases as closely as possible.
This is where harness, and the fact that a machine can be endlessly prompted to try again comes in.
Even if an LLM starts by pursuing things that follow human bias, continuous failures and re-prompting to try something different will eventually force it to consider things outside of what ever biases it has.
You can do the same thing to a human. But most people would consider it unethical to lock someone in a box and force them to keep trying to solve the same problem over and over again until they figure it out.
Your comment stopped me in my tracks a little bit.
Is a 'bias' in a piece of writing generally a property of word to word choice and sentence to sentence construction or is it something more nebulous? Especially in terms of the appreciation of mathematics and someone's hesitance about publishing a mathematical argument they think is ugly or brute forced in some way.
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Is it? I'd expect most of the training set to be synthetic data extrapolated from a small set of human authored texts.
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It's more complex than that, especially as post training is often goal based.
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No, they are not. Specifically, this was a method based specifically on learning from scratch, like most modern AI models.
Why do you think it's called Alpha ZERO?
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There’s a story in How to Solve It that’s basically the same.
> he had spent the entire weekend trying and failing to prove it. I, on the other hand, had put all my energy into finding a counterexample and had one within an hour.
For a more extreme (although somewhat inverted) version of this, see Zeeman. He spent years trying to find a knotted sphere in a 5D space. Then realised this was impossible and got a proof for it in a few hours. [1]
[1] https://ima.org.uk/28009/sir-erik-christopher-zeeman-the-mat...
Trying and failing to prove something tells you quite a lot about what a counterexample would look like.
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> I learned on Monday that he had spent the entire weekend trying and failing to prove it. I, on the other hand, had put all my energy into finding a counterexample and had one within an hour.
He spent an entire weekend before having the wisdom to pause, and let someone else contribute their time to finding a counter.
This was back when the internet was mostly chain emails and personal web pages, being unreachable once you went home for the weekend was perfectly normal and expected, and automatically thinking the worst of people was not a common form of public performance art. ;)
> having the wisdom
Ahem.
> On one particular Friday afternoon, he stated a conjecture that he hoped was true, and invited us to try to help him prove or disprove it.
It was a parallel effort ... we don't know how many people were working on it that weekend. And since the professor wanted it to be true and presumably believed that it was true, why the heck should he wait for students of unknown number and ability to find a counterexample that he didn't think existed?