Comment by saghm
2 days ago
You can just...not use it though? It's not comparable to trying to avoid it in C/C++ because there's literally just one keyword to never use and then you're good, compared to it being possible to silently introduce in any number of ways. I put a lint in my Cargo.toml to forbid unsafe code in my projects, and now I'm guaranteed not to write unsafe code.
To apply your logically consistently, you'd also have to throw out Go[1], Java[2], C#[3], and plenty of other languages. I guess you can define a logically consistent taxonomy of languages where Fil-C is the only "safe" language any everything else is unsafe, but then the burden is on you to prove that it's a useful way of thinking about them. Meanwhile, the way that people who consider Go and Java and Rust to be safe and C/C++ to be unsafe will continue to see actual real-world differences in outcomes when using a safe language compared to unsafe ones.
As an aside, it continues to be absolutely wild to me to see how most arguments in favor of C/C++ over Rust nowadays are based on framing things theoretically rather than practical ones. It was not all that long ago that the situation was reversed, with people claiming that Rust's benefits were all theoretical when most C/C++ code would have all of the UB found and removed over time. Now that Rust actually has been getting used for real-world stuff for a few years, and the number of vulnerabilities found in C/C++ code does not seem to be going down any time soon, any actual empirical evidence gets handwaved away. Maybe Fil-C will be able to provide as large benefits to running C safely in production like its proponents claim in the future, and if so, that will be a solid argument against the utility of Rust in a lot of situations, but if we're collectively going to shift the standard to discount pragmatism over theory in this debate, we might as well not try to hide it.
[1]: https://pkg.go.dev/unsafe
[2]: https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E92951_01/coherence/java-referenc...
[3]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.runtime....
> To apply your logically consistently, you'd also have to throw out Go[1], Java[2], C#[3], and plenty of other languages
Yes? Is Fil-C not obviously safer than those?
> I guess you can define a logically consistent taxonomy of languages where Fil-C is the only "safe" language any everything else is unsafe, but then the burden is on you to prove that it's a useful way of thinking about them. Meanwhile, the way that people who consider Go and Java and Rust to be safe and C/C++ to be unsafe will continue to see actual real-world differences in outcomes when using a safe language compared to unsafe ones.
It seems like "can switch on unsafe whenever" vs "has no escape hatches" is an obvious line in the sand and a very useful distinction with real world implications.
> Maybe Fil-C will be able to provide as large benefits to running C safely in production like its proponents claim in the future
Why in the future? It exists and can be used right now. In fact, much of its appeal is being able to use existing code without needing to port to a new language; pragmatism seems like an argument in its favor.
> It seems like "can switch on unsafe whenever" vs "has no escape hatches" is an obvious line in the sand and a very useful distinction with real world implications.
Sure, although to me, the obvious distinction is that one of them gives you more flexibility (since neither Go nor Fil-C is at risk for someone accidentally writing unsafe code).
> Why in the future? It exists and can be used right now. In fact, much of its appeal is being able to use existing code without needing to port to a new language; pragmatism seems like an argument in its favor.
Because "can be used" is not a statement of present use, but potential future use. You seem to be missing my entire point about theory versus practice; plenty of things might be useful in theory but don't ever get widely used in practice (e.g. because they're not user friendly enough, or they require constraints that aren't acceptable to most users). I'm not making a claim about whether Fil-C has these issues, but making a claim that as yet, there does not seem to be widespread usage of it. If it's really so seamless to drop-in as a replacement for C that's strictly safer without downsides that make it unappealing to most people, I'd expect that to change. If that doesn't happen, I'd consider that evidence that it's not actually providing meaningful safety in the real world (in the https://xkcd.com/1312/ sense)
Bearing in mind that "there should be no room for a language above assembly and below Rust" (i.e. something like what C or C++ is to Python, Java, C#, etc.) was an intentional design decision for Rust which resulted in `unsafe`.
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