Comment by defrost
21 hours ago
> Mmm, this I disagree with particularly.
I'd suggest taking that up with Paul Graham, @dang, and @tomhow - they would respond that curious conversation about second order effects is what they seek - sans the direct personal attacks seeking to directly shame another person for their choices.
> How do you feel about the moral dilemma of working for a weapons manufacturer?
Weapons, of course, cut both ways; Ukraine is pushing back against an aggressor by using weapons, long range sensing, passive radar, etc.
> Every year that passes it becomes more important that technologists are aware of the ethical implications of their work
Agreed - that doesn't imply you should call perceived less enlightened others names or champion throwing them in the stocks .. such things rarely convert and often harden resistance.
We can argue about whether the OP should have found a more elegant way to call out the commenter he was responding to, of course. But I stand my ground firm that this industry needs an extreme dose of self-reflection injected directly to its heart, and shame seems to be an effective medium available to us as peer technologists. There are different methods of shaming, of course, but ideally those who are currently earning money from unethical sources should feel ashamed. Furthermore, whether someone does feel ashamed because of what someone commented should not be a criteria for whether a comment is a “personal attack”.
Humans use shame to correct antisocial behavior, and humans feel shame in order to avoid antisocial behavior. The technology professions are rife with antisocial behavior. Our leaders are chosen and their behavior is optimized as antisocial, for shareholder (and personal) short-term growth.
> Weapons, of course, cut both ways; Ukraine is pushing back against an aggressor by using weapons, long range sensing, passive radar, etc.
This is an entirely different subject that I don’t think we should get sidetracked by. I’ll just recommend Die Physiker (or one of its translations) as a fun starting point for radicalization against the argument you presented.
> as a fun starting point for radicalization against the argument you presented
As a gentle reminder, it was yourself that raised weapons as a moral dilemma, I responded with no argument other than a plain observation.
> but ideally those who are currently earning money from unethical sources should feel ashamed
More often they likely sleep deeply on sheets of insanely high thread count, shame only goes so far to effect change.
> I’ll just recommend Die Physiker
If I recall correctly that came up when I had a long discussion with Mark Oliphant in the late 1970s, William Tutte had a few books of his own to recommend on similar themes not long after.
> More often they likely sleep deeply on sheets of insanely high thread count, shame only goes so far to effect change.
Do you have alternative suggestions, or will you stick to simply discouraging the use of shame on this forum?
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