Comment by stingraycharles
20 hours ago
Am I the only one who’s absolutely shocked that Go finally is embracing generics?
Does anyone have a bit of an inside view into what changed in the perspectives of the language maintainers?
I’m not buying the “it took us 20 years to understand how to do it correctly” argument, as this is something you explicitly take into consideration when designing the language or not. And it was specifically not a part of language design, and is much harder to retrofit (backwards compatibility).
So what changed?
(I was on the Go team for ages)
Seriously, that's all it was. Just Ian alone proposed and rejected a half dozen of his own different approaches to generics. Finally a language + implementation plan came together that people all liked.
Nobody was ever opposed to generics that I saw.
If bug free binary search implementation can take 16 years, I am ready to buy generics implementation could take 20 years.
> In his landmark book The Art of Computer Programming, legendary computer scientist Donald Knuth noted that although the first binary search algorithm was published by John Mauchly in 1946, the first bug-free version was not published until 1962—taking a staggering 16 years to get right.
Took a few more years to get really bug free.
> Fast forward to 2006. I was shocked to learn that the binary search program that Bentley proved correct and subsequently tested in Chapter 5 of Programming Pearls contains a bug. ... Lest you think I'm picking on Bentley, let me tell you how I discovered the bug: The version of binary search that I wrote for the JDK contained the same bug. It was reported to Sun recently when it broke someone's program, after lying in wait for nine years or so.
https://research.google/blog/extra-extra-read-all-about-it-n...
403 error. What was the bug?
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It’s also not true that because it wasn’t part of the initial design that it was harder to retrofit. I just don’t understand all this go bashing that happens on this site especially when so much is badly informed speculation. I guess it’s easier to tear something down.
my post was never intended as Go bashing, I use Go a lot and appreciate its simplicity.
am I tearing something down in my comment?
HN threads on Go are boring because they always get derailed by someone grousing about the fact that it took a long time to add generics. The history of this has been gone over a thousand times already and it’s really quite undramatic. The Go team couldn’t figure out a good design for generics for a long time. Eventually, they got some help from Phil Wadler and other type system experts and figured it out. The end. Anyone who feels that the Go team should have done it faster owes us at the very least their own design together with a soundness proof for a plausible fragment of Go. Conspicuously, no-one provided such a thing before the Go team did.
The details of Go generics, their advantages and disadvantages compared to other languages, etc., are absolutely interesting to discuss. But there is nothing hiding behind the “official” story.
Surely it was pressure from devs to make Go look like every other language they begged to change then abandoned for the new hotness.
Unfortunately nothing changed. They wanted generics all along.
The Go ecosystem was a delicate, special thing. It was a wholesale rejection of the malignant consultancy takeover of programming that had festered and spread for the previous 15 years. Introducing generics was a grievous error, and they just keep making it worse.
It used to be you could look at any Go code from any author and pretty much instantly understand it completely. That’s no longer the case.
It used to be you would work on a problem, just writing the code from top to bottom. No time wasted fiddling with abstractions you’ll never use. You’d grumble about it, but succumbing to the temptation was impossible. That’s no longer the case.
I have written Go for the past decade and completely, fundamentally disagree with this take. Go has always had a tendency towards limited exressivity, which created a strong dependence on interface{}, type assertions, and runtime bug’s that should have been compiler errors.
When I read these grumbling takes about how Go use to be so simple etc I imagine devs who would revel in all the features they were unable to implement because it would be too difficult in the language. Or devs who love typing and re-typing the same code over and over again, littering their code with switch cases and conditional logic while passing themselves on the back for avoiding “abstraction”.
[dead]
and they're still worse than the 1970s state of the art lol
you mean like in Oberon?
ML's parametric polymorphism
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> what changed in the perspectives of the language maintainers?
The original maintainers moved on to other projects and the new community maintainers came to a consensus through the proposal and governance process.
No, that's not accurate. The same core people were involved.