Comment by anon84873628
1 day ago
Relatedly, there is evidence that certain types of "resistant starch" can help reduce visceral fat. This starch comes from green bananas, potatoes, legumes, etc. It has to be either raw (there are supplements for this) or cooked and cooled.
"Resistant starch intake facilitates weight loss in humans by reshaping the gut microbiota"
sample size n=37 of which recruitment only happened in Shanghai without any real control for confounders, only evaluated over a period of two weeks with no longterm follow-ups, the dosage of 40g RS/d is very high (would take about 4-5 large potatoes daily for equivalency or ingesting likely expensive supplement), the crossover compares RS vs CS in the same participants with only a 4 week washout which is a weakness since fermentable fiber persists >4 weeks, also the supplement they used was industry-provided by a starch manufacturer which was weirdly not disclosed
this is a great study if you are an overweight/obese adult without overt metabolic disease, willing and able to consume 90 g/d of starch supplement within a controlled diet, and living in Shanghai with similar baseline fiber intakes endemic to that population. it is extremely not generalizeable to you or even me though I fit more of those characteristics than I care to admit
stay skeptical of small studies like this, friend
> not generalizable
But there's already a general advise on this: eat more fiber.
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2017/08/hunter-gather...
We're a great ape, our body evolved to process a lot of fiber from fruits and starches. It's the modern fiber-deficient diet that's really weird.
90g/day of fiber is similar to the Hadza tribe diet, where they can consume 100-150g of fiber per day.
a starch is not fiber and generally not broken down the same way in digestion afaik
fiber is great and under-consumed (especially soluble) and is very well-studied on modern populations [0]. we don't really need to make mechanistic reasonings about evolutionary adaptations that occurred hundreds of thousands of years ago or rely on studies of a small, homogenized population whose lived realities are far from yours and mine
plus, following the the hierarchy of evidence, mechanistic guesses are considered extremely low quality, only ranking above things like mouse studies [1]
[0] https://www.uptodate.com/contents/healthy-diet-in-adults#H61... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_evidence
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We shouldn't assume that because we are a great ape that we eat the same as other great apes. Humans spent two million years away from the jungle evolving in the savanna, with very different food sources. Our guts changed quite a bit in that time, and our digestion doesn't work the same.
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Fiber’s the new fad supplement.
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Also, the authors claim the starch "inhibited lipid absorption." They do not argue why they used surrogate blood biomarkers instead of residual energy output in fecal samples (which is a better measurement).
sample size is 37, number of authors 29
Well, fortunately it's not the only such study:
https://prebioticassociation.org/resistant-starch-research-u...
Several of those are reviews themselves.
I started taking resistant starch in the form of raw green banana powder after decades of undiagnosed digestive issues.
I had been to doctors, gotten colonoscopies and endoscopies and other tests, elimination diets, etc.
One week of this powder mixed with water and my ever present mild diarrhea is basically gone. It's as close to a miracle cure as I can imagine.
However, I haven't lost a single pound or lost a single inch from my waistline.
I have, however, gained muscle, because I can now work out more because I'm not constantly fatigued and my body can recover much faster so I'm lifting weights quite steadily.
I'm so enthusiastic about this that I sound like a bot or a shill but it is what it is.
It doesn't work as a bulking agent like psyllium husk did. I can vary the dose and take it with or without food on a full or an empty stomach and it still works making me think that it might be related to changes in microbiota. I apologize for too much info but I must add that the solidness and color and smell of my feces changed completely and that my digestive system has slowed digestion.
You can just go on a calorie deficit and it will reduce your visceral fat when you start getting lean enough.
But obviously, most people are a lot more interested in finding a magic food which does this rather than a proven calorie deficit, which is highly effective.
> highly effective
Purely behavioral lifestyle interventions have the lowest long term success rates of all available treatments for obesity. It's especially unreliable if you have weight loss targets higher than 15%.
They are of course still widely recommended due to numerous benefits other than weight loss, but "highly effective" is just wrong in the context of obesity treatments.
Hasn't it been found that the best diet is the one you'll actually do?
I seem to remember a meta analysis a decade ago or so finding that the particulars (high protein, atkins, paleo, whatever) didn't really matter so much as the the willingness and commitment to the change.
Why? Information worked for smoking in combination with price increases and forbidden to smoke in certain places. Only 5% in Sweden smoke now.
This problem literally did not exist until the 80s. I don't think the human brain/body evolved much since then so surely there is another problem. The only solution is behavioural, everything else is cope.
It's the same thing for the mental issues epidemic... you can't build a completely hostile environment to human life and well being and then say "welp, I guess we need drugs to make you feel normal now", now they'll sell us the drug and the cure, and you'll be clapping and thanking them for saving you, truly amazing.
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> Purely behavioral lifestyle interventions have the lowest long term success rates of all available treatments for obesity.
What? Surely changing one's behaviour - particularly the parts of behaviour that caused the obesity in the first place - is a sure way to stop being obese.
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Why not, though? Eating is fun and pleasurable. If we can figure out a way to eat the things that we want, in the quantities that we want, while maintaining our health, why shouldn't we try?
I've lost weight through forcing myself into a calorie deficit, and it works really well, but it's not particularly fun.
> Why not, though? Eating is fun and pleasurable
Sure but food doesn't have to equate to consume large quantities of junk food for it to be pleasurable.
We can learn to have a healthy meal with a reasonable portion that is as satisfying.
You always end up with the people pushing these foods being those who sell them. And then others start selling fake foods with similar claims.
For the "eat to get slimmer" claim, I think we're at the point where "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."
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Did you get an iberian to lay the pattern in your vomitorium?
To do it right it requires quite an effort to no go too much into calorie deficit.
It definitely is not "you can just go on a calorie deficit", that is how jo-jo effect works.
For average person that has children, full time job, and whole range of adult responsibilities it is hard. Not impossible but hard, this is why people are looking fo easier solutions.
I think what's important is to consider the difficulty of making these choices, and to set up your environment so that it's easier to make the right choice.
I've lost weight and kept it off by making sure I don't have sweets and other types of food that I know I'll down in ten minutes. But if I don't have any on hand, I won't eat any.
Ditto for normal food: if I increase the portion of filling, low-calorie foods (think salads and other greens), with a lot of protein, I know I won't have cravings later in the day and feel full longer. But if I buy fatty sausage, with a hefty helping of salty cheese, I'll eat until I explode.
If when I'm hungry I have a choice between "a quick bite" of something very palatable, calorie-rich but nutritionally poor, and a "good" meal, I know I'll make the wrong choice. But if my only choice is the good meal, I'll eat that and stay on track.
This also has a positive feedback effect: after a while, not only did I stop craving various junk foods, but they actually don't register as food anymore when I see them in ads or similar. Which, of course, makes it easier to stick to the "diet". Now, when I'm hungry, I crave "actual" food. The other day I couldn't have lunch on time, and all I could think of was a fat bowl of lettuce with some roasted chicken breast and yogurt. Walking in front of the local McDonald's peddling their latest mystery burger didn't do anything to me.
The vast majority of people who lose weight by calorie restriction gain it back, so I wouldn't call it highly effective. Short term yes, but long term, definitely not.
Why do they gain the weight back though? I'd hazard a guess they stop the calorie restriction and go back to their old habits.
Short term "diets" are nonsense. The solution is permanent lifestyle changes.
Abstention is commercially a no go zone, eating 'different' is a goldmine. It is why 'going on a diet' in the 1970's still meant eating less, while starting in the 1980's the phrase was turned into just eating the latest industry fad miracle food.
Also, the same on the exercise side: the most efficient fat loss exercise (literally oxidizing body fat) is moderate intensity high volume aerobic one. You don't need a gym membership, a coach, or a fancy machine to do this. And if you are already a member in a gym, the gym won't be very happy with you doing 2-4 hours of zone 2 there. They'd rather you hire a personal trainer who will give you some resistance exercises, each "targeting" fat at some part of the body. They are exhausting and you will feel completely spent after doing them for 30 mins. The faster you get tired and more damage you cause to the muscles ("burn") the better is the exercise regimen (and less likely you oxidize any fat).
You can induce a calorie deficit by eating foods that fill you up but don’t have many calories. Also avoiding the sugar-spike carbs cause leaving you even hungrier shortly after works also.
A good dietician is worth a few consults if you don’t have the will power to just fast. And as a bonus you don’t lose muscle mass as well because they’ll focus on keeping protein up.
>A good dietician is worth a few consults if you don’t have the will power to just fast. And as a bonus you don’t lose muscle mass as well because they’ll focus on keeping protein up.
Fasting is like using a nuke where a bullet would do.
How will a dietician measure your maintenance calories? How will they continuously update your macros and calories when your maintenance calorie change week to week?
I am making a claim here: most dietician will not be able to track your maintenance calories better than MacroCodex's algorithm.
Many dieticians simply rely on BMR/TDEE static formulas, and the limitation of this approach is that it cannot reliably track a user's actual maintenance calories well through the span of their dieting journey.
People regain those weight. I have gone through many sessions of those, and I have realized that the only effective way to do this is to change the whole lifestyle. My lifestyle nowadays makes my weight stable around 75-77KG.
But changing lifestyle is virtually impossible for parents who also work, and have a bunch of issues here and there. Remaining the current lifestyle without dropping to a worse one is difficult enough.
Just wanted to pop in and say you are 100% correct. I don't understand what happened with food and ozempic. Suddenly we are supposed to be okay with fat people again, like back in 2016. The world moved on from woke.
Also this pic says it all, if everyone is so loved and beautiful why is everyone hopping on the ozempic train...?
https://imgur.com/a/WLgQnHc
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Metabolism was an excuse when we could not reliably estimate it outside laboratory; today we can do that too, for completely free (we run a public benefit app for this).
Method here: https://macrocodex.app/knowledge/rethink/adaptive-tdee/
People can find the algorithm here: https://macrocodex.app/knowledge/macrocodex/smart-calorie-bu...
In fact, our claim on the app is results within 2-5 weeks for both weight gain and weight loss; I've yet to find a guy who did not achieve success with this.
Calorie deficit is the most effective method for weight loss.
What's funny is when people actually measure their metabolism with this approach, they realize they aren't far off from the average!
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they were forced labor camps plagued with disease and malnutrition. so, not a great thing to base an argument of caloric intake and weight loss on, and honestly, a horrific thing to bring up casually as a means to make a point.
You misunderstand what you're calling an excuse.
> which is highly effective
How are you defining highly effective? In the sense that a body will definitely lose weight when starved? Or in the sense that counting calories is broadly effective as a weight loss strategy?
The former is painfully obvious and entirely unhelpful, and the latter is provably false.
Counting macros is extremely effective. The general population doesn't have the discipline for it, but amoung sport coaches, actors, models, bodybuilders, this is *the* technique for achieving goals.
Anyway what's cute about this is that this isn't novel phenomenon. There are lots of parallels to this in other fields where often effective solutions do exist, but at a system level don't seem to work.
Telling people to diet doesn't fix population level obesity. Telling people about personal financial management doesn't stop people from accruing too much high interest debt. Telling teenagers to stop idolizing instagram influences doesn't fix body anxiety issues. Telling people to stop smoking/drinking doesn't fix addictions. 3-2-1 data backups absolutely work but people lose files all the time.
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>In the sense that a body will definitely lose weight when starved?
If your maintenance calories are 2700kcal and you eat 300kcal less than that, is eating 2400kcal starving for you?
Most people cannot tell a difference if they eat 100-150kcal less in a day.
>Or in the sense that counting calories is broadly effective as a weight loss strategy?
Yes, it is, and the reason people fail with it is not because calorie counting doesn't work, but because people's maintenance calorie estimates are often poor.
Deficit = maintenance calories (TDEE) - calorie intake
In this, even if your calorie tracking is on point, a deficit requires you to have a decent estimate of maintenance calories.
To throw a monkey wrench into all this, your maintenance calories often shift downward as you progress in your "diet" journey.
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The problem is: average person is bad at counting calories. They overestimate number of calories burnt, and severely underestimate number of calories consumed. Once you get your math right and get into real, not imaginary calorie deficit you'll start losing weight. Rule of thumb: whatever you think the amount of calories is in your current meal, double your estimate.
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IMO my only concern is their dats shows they were actually able to maintain a pretty controlled diet for each participant, I wonder how selection was done. I also would've appreciated some bomb calorimetry of fecal samples, similar to [0] which is the widely cited paper that does link general fiber intake to a lower level of caloric/energy absorption.
Baer, David J., et al. "Dietary fiber decreases the metabolizable energy content and nutrient digestibility of mixed diets fed to humans." The Journal of nutrition 127.4 (1997): 579-586.
Mark Stache ( https://youtu.be/L-gNdQZorEE?si=nkwAhZOiAFtY2f44 ) just did a 90 day evaluation. The biggest problem at the level they mention is some intense flatulence. He is also in good shape and had mixed results compared to the study.
I feel like I've heard this story 1 million times before.
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"you people"
> The study was conducted in Shanghai, China from 3 July 2013 to 14 October 2016
Figuring out and understanding the physiology of different gut bacteria is not just for people trying to shortcut weight loss while still eating unhealthy food or to be sedentary all day.
Eh, the "real food" of Jamie Oliver and Michael Pollan (shop the peripheries) and such isn't very health promoting. So I'll pass and keep eating a mix of fresh food and cheap food that keeps for a long time like legumes. Kthxbai.
Are legumes not "real food"?
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