Comment by ncallaway
19 hours ago
> If you have a massive excess of demand ready to pay any price, and a limited supply, of course the sellers will take advantage, that's how any market work
The question is how quickly the supply adjusts. In a free market, the suppliers would respond to the price signal by quickly expanding their production to meet the elevated demand.
But a market captured by a cartel will be much slower to expand the supply.
So, the test isn't "how much is price going up" it's "how aggressively are the RAM producers expanding supply production"
Memory fab build out times are years not months. The existing ones already run 24/7. If these companies could pull more supply out of thin air they would, but they cannot.
Would they?
Cartels aren't known for massively increasing production to satisfy all demand. Far from it I'd say, they're more likely to expand supply to such a level that they can still reap massive profits. Very few countries/companies have the knowhow and willingness to be able to build more.
OPEC is a perfect example of this behaviour. They set hearly production goals to keep prices high. Or the Quebec Maple Syrup Producers organization that limits the amount of syrup a farmer can produce and sell in a year to keep prices high.
> Quebec Maple Syrup Producers organization
Can you just not join the organization?
Maple trees are living things and have a right to reproduce, you can't fault a bird for shitting maple seeds all over my farm planting maple trees everywhere.
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You're correct in theory. I'm just not sure we have a cartel situation. Micron is a US company, and it controls 25% of the global market. I see no evidence that they nor SK hynix nor Samsung are intentionally limiting production.
I do see people arguing, "they had years to increase production - why didn't they?" They've been remarkably candid about this: because RAM production has been losing them money in the past. Because they don't have a cartel, prices were on the floor. Investing in more production would have been corporate suicide.
Even now, there is considerable risk that the bubble will burst, and all this investment in new production will be flushed down the toilet. RAM production is a brutal business.
> OPEC is a perfect example of this behaviour.
It really is. First thing I searched for in the thread.
OPEC's aim isn't to keep prices as high as possible. If they go too high, people will start buying electric cars, investing in renewable energy, etc. Basically they want to make oil as expensive as possible while preventing it from getting so expensive that it's disruptive.
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Can you list out the precise "cartel" company, their supply chains and the board of directors, their financial and political ties?
Lot of unsubstantiated claims with low fidelity meme evidence
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> Cartels aren't known for massively increasing production to satisfy all demand.
Don't worry they will leave money on the table and lobby for protectionism when china comes and eats their lunch.
But are the memory chip producers acting like a cartel? In the past they have not. When there was a shortage, they increased production as rapidly as they could build the new fabs, crashing the price of memory.
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There are several Chinese fabs that they could contract out production to. In fact that's exactly what Apple tried to do, before the U.S. government went full protectionist and added the two memory manufacturers to the banned imports list. There's also the Texas Instruments fab that's underutilized right now. The extra capacity exists, it's just Micro and SK Hynix are throwing their money around to stifle anything that could jeopardize their spike in profits that are historic not only for their industry, but for manufacturing as a whole.
I didn't say the build out time was months.
I said:
> the test isn't "how much is price going up" it's "how aggressively are the RAM producers expanding supply production"
Large barriers to entry are anathema to competitive markets, so the conclusion here is still that firms are benefitting from the lack of a competitive market.
Memory fabs take years to build, they cost a lot and there is no guarantee that the demand will stay as high years in the future. It's all very complex.
And yet, memory manufacturers have been caught (in legal cases and fined) many times to collide and keep prices high artificially in the past.
I'm curious what the limiting factor is for "years not months" when building these fabs. DRAM is a commodity, there are only threeish major manufacturers, all have huge amounts of capital, multiple nations bend over backwards for new semiconductor production projects, and there seems to be unlimited money going into purchasing these things.
Even when it comes to manufacturing the tooling/testing infrastructure, it's just a question of money aiui.
It's not "just a question of money", time is absolutely a factor. Getting nine women pregnant doesn't give you a baby in a month.
> But a market captured by a cartel will be much slower to expand the supply.
Oh yea, governments can fix by putting 100 billion in memory fabs right now, and when demand crater in decade or so, let tax payer eat the cost of those fabs. At least it will benefit poor computer users like me.
Free Market doesn’t mean new ram production can “just be stood up”
And given that these are independent actors in the free market, they’ve seen the history of boom/bust cycles in this market
Free market doesn’t mean “everything just magically happens”
As has already been pointed out further down, OPEC is the perfect example of this. Things don't really work that way when the time scales are so extended. What we need is fracking, but silicon.
This system is too complex, the few individual players too big, with too many artificial distortions for the adjustment to equalize out in a way that's anything but years-long (it may have shock-waves that extend past the decade), and highly destructive to everyone who isn't OPEC, or their largest customers, in this analogy.
The brunt of it will be paid by the people further down the food chain.
> In a free market, the suppliers would respond to the price signal by quickly expanding their production to meet the elevated demand.
That’s a good one!
> In a free market, the suppliers would respond to the price signal by quickly expanding their production to meet the elevated demand.
Why would they?
And you claim to have historic examples where they did?
Generally speaking, if demand stays high, and existing suppliers don't increase supply, the high prices create an incentive and opportunity for new market entrants to increase the supply.
Yes everyone took Econ 101.
Now what do you think happens when developing new supply is substantially constrained by lead times?
Coz a whole lot less of you have ever dealt with manufacturing logistics.
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Even if the memory market was completely competitive the time it takes to expand supply is measured in years. There was no way for them to serve the AI demand without reducing supply given to everyone else in the short run
> There was no way for them to serve the AI demand without reducing supply given to everyone else in the short run
I didn't say that there was a way to do it in the short run. I laid out what the test is to determine if there's cartel-like behavior or competitive-market-like behavior.
I will say, in a market with only 3 players and very high cap-ex cost, my prior is that you're likely to see more cartel-like behavior than competitive-market-like behavior, but that's still to be determined.
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