Comment by wongarsu
13 hours ago
Isn't the issue here the three order of magnitude difference between the (presumably optimized) JS implementation and the optimized C kernel on your browser? If the two stay within an order of magnitude of each other Anubis is a perfectly viable and scalable solution. Bots want to open many orders of magnitude more pages than a normal user, so the resource investment for each single page matters a lot more to them
For reference, the challenge on lists.ffmpeg.org takes 8 seconds on Firefox on my three year old laptop CPU that has worse benchmark scores than the iPhone 17 (tbf, the laptop also cost less than an iPhone 17). 8 seconds doesn't run against thermal limitations, so I really don't see why Safari on a modern iPhone should be so slow at this
me neither, but I don't think it changes the argument. There's always going to be someone on a low-end device. Your adversaries already have superhuman coding ability and infinite patience. Why would you expect the long-term advantage to be with the defenders?
In this case, because there's a vastly more efficient economic path for the adversaries (cloning).
They're not trying to engage in an arms race, they're trying to channel a racing river into its natural course.
It’s more economical at a compute level, but not at the developer level. The moment you start customizing your crawler to use protocol X for site Y your scale story collapses.
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> which takes ~180sec for my iPhone 17 to solve at ~100KH/s
> so I really don't see why Safari on a modern iPhone should be so slow at this
FWIW, my iPhone 12 Mini also does ~110KH/s with Anubis on lists.ffmpeg.org, so seems fairly likely that Safari somehow here isn't working as expected.
iPhone Air is roughly 90KH/s. I bet it’s a matter of the site not being “trusted” and the JIT being disabled.
Apple dynamically disables JIT based on website trust?
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> Bots want to open many orders of magnitude more pages than a normal user, so the resource investment for each single page matters a lot more to them
Depending on the configuration, Anubis will supply a token after the challenge that bypasses the challenge for a time.
So any scraper that retains basic cookies will be able to bypass the challenge for a number of page views.
A user who needs to load a single page and a bot that wants to scrape a number of pages may pay the same cost.
The amortized per-view cost is highest for the real user.
Now you have a session of sorts and can limit the requests for that client, right? They can be fast, just limited in volume - regular user isn't punished.
yep, that's the exact play. Or better fingerprinted & blocked in other ways
So, they can interleave different tokens and get stopless access at normal price?
Yes this needs to be tailored for Anubis, but that was the point: the moment it will become popular enough, scrapers will have no problems to bypass it.
Paying a second of CPU time is an inconvenience to a user but trivial for LLM scraping.
The GPU cost to pretrain on that page once will dwarf by 2-3 OOMs the CPU cost to compute Anubis, scrape and post process it. And you’re not going to just train on it once!
At best you’re creating a speed bump for wannabe players scraping with no real plan. The folks training models people use just do not care.
> If the two stay within an order of magnitude of each other Anubis is a perfectly viable and scalable solution.
Exactly, and that's even before accounting for more sophisticated PoW algorithms such as the one used by XMR that almost entirely eliminate any benefit from offloading to an accelerator.