> Memory safety bugs, which are errors in handling memory in native programming languages, are common code issues. They lead to security vulnerabilities as well as stability problems.
>Armv9 introduced the Arm Memory Tagging Extension (MTE), a hardware extension that allows you to catch use-after-free and buffer-overflow bugs in your native code.
No MTE and AddressSanitizer are implemented completely differently under the hood and catch different kinds of memory bugs.
MTE tracks provenance of pointers which means it catches bugs where a valid pointer derived from one allocation is used to access another allocation. Provenance is indicated by a fixed number of tags available. So there’s a 7% chance of not detecting an occurrence of a memory bug.
ASan is implemented differently: it adds red zones next to allocations. In theory it could have a false negative if a pointer jumps over the poisoned region. But it works well for stack memory in addition to heap memory. MTE doesn’t protect your stack allocated objects.
To expand a bit: 16-byte chunks of memory can be associated with a four bit tag. Then you steal four unused high bits from your pointers to store a tag value. When memory has a tag, a pointer used to access it must have the matching tag in its high bits. Your malloc implementation can then assign a different tag to adjacent allocations and any overflow into an adjacent allocation will have a mismatched tag and will trap. Likewise, change the tag on free and an attempt to use the pointer after the allocation has been freed will trap.
Of course, this doesn't come for free. Four bits per 16 bytes means a 3% increase in memory needed for tagged memory, hardware overhead for checking tags on memory accesses, and software overhead of setting/changing/clearing tags as necessary. This overhead is low (Apple shipped this in flagship hardware a year ago and nobody's complaining about performance there) but not zero, and an implementation with poor performance could be a real problem.
It also explains that the fact ASan works well with, e.g., std::vector in C++ doesn't come for free and if you want ASan to detect bugs when your custom collections or allocators are used you have to use special ASan API to mark [in]accessible memory.
Unfortunately, the headline is somewhat optimistic compared to the reality, I think.
The thread makes it sound like it could have been disabled due to errata or performance issues. Basically, it looks like the software Google is shipping intentionally doesn't use MTE on the Pixel 11 hardware. That raises the question of...what does Google know is wrong with MTE on the Pixel 11?
> it looks like the software Google is shipping intentionally doesn't use MTE on the Pixel 11 hardware. That raises the question of...what does Google know is wrong with MTE on the Pixel 11?
Apple replaced MTE with an upgraded version that can run in synchronous mode all the time without the performance hit.
> Consider that MTE can be configured to report memory corruption either synchronously or asynchronously. In the latter mode, memory corruption doesn’t immediately raise an exception, leaving a race window open for attackers... We believe memory safety protections need to be strictly synchronous, on by default, and working continuously.
> Google may just be getting ready to follow suit.
That may well be, but it's a regression for the time being, since Advanced Protection mode presumably no longer uses MTE (or a replacement for MTE), whereas it did on the Pixel 8, 9, and 10.
It seems like they should've continued to offer MTE until the replacement was ready.
There's only a significant cost to synchronous MTE.
MTE ships two modes. synchronous mode and asynchronous mode. SYNC is slower but gives you far better traces and throws an SEGV_MTESERR as soon as violations happen. ASYNC however is async so there's a bit of a delay between a violation and the "catch" that throws SEGV_MTEAERR.
Strictly speaking async is worse for security because there's a brief window of time where the process "gets away with it" but the main differentiator is that because things don't stop the moment the violation occurs, SEGV_MTEAERR traces tend to be some degree of "out of date" vs SEGV_MTESERR which capture the exact state of the world the moment the error occurs.
The main tradeoff here is that async MTE has basically negligible cost. Something like 1-5% in practice but in microbenchmarks you can see up to 50%. Vs synchronous MTE where the penalty is on average closer to like 10-15% but in microbenchmarks it can be like 5-6x slower.
So yeah the perf cost is there but it's really not a major issue.
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The main issue is that apps and services crash when an MTE segfault occurs. So this means that to the uninformed end user apps appear spuriously unstable with no meaningful context. And it's not just apps. On graphene I see MTE segfaults semi regularly from various system daemons (mainly related to GPS/nav) and occasionally in Google Play Services itself.
From time to time I get them in Youtube and I constantly get them in the Twitch app. It's very annoying and the apps just crash when you happen to do some particular action leaving you walking on your toes to avoid accidentally tapping whatever magic pattern happens to invoke a MTE SIGSEGV until the next update. Doubly so since most apps provide no meaningful interface for uploading log traces to report these issues.
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If Google wanted to roll this out without the spurious crashes they'd need to deploy it and eat the minor perf hit but they'd need to register a global signal handler to capture these MTE SIGSEGVs and report them back to the services in question without crashing the app.
And most app devs don't care so they'd be taking a minor (or major) perf hit in exchange for logging errors that developers always ignore. Doubly so in the modern day of "just have AI fix/do XYZ and who cares about the consequences as long as it runs".
I'm not surprised they dropped it but I do honestly wish they'd forced the issue and just deployed it and forced apps to fix their shit.
Nothing is wrong. They just don't use MTE yet, they probably have other priorities. They wanted to save some costs until they will use MTE, so they removed some hardware acceleration and downgraded the GPU. Simple as that.
AFAIK the other Pixel devices, going back to the 8, do use MTE in the stock OS. Some MTE features are only enabled when "Advanced Protection" is turned on in the OS settings, but the stock OS on those devices does make use of MTE. In the Android documentation, MTE is explicitly called out as one of the protection features enabled in the Advanced Protection mode.
So, I don't think it's accurate to say they don't use it yet. They were using it, and then they stopped. I think that's one of the reasons the linked GOS thread says they're concerned that "MTE may actually be broken due to CPU errata".
It’s absurd that a small project like Graphene is able to run rings around a giant like Google in the security sphere. Almost makes you wonder if some of those vulnerabilities are intentionally allowed to exist.
Vulnerabilities in the world’s most popular (by volume) mobile OS could provide a plausibly deniable global espionage backdoor.
The perception that they are able to run rings around Google is not necessarily an accurate one. There are tradeoffs in any engineering situation and GrapheneOS devs make different ones based on different requirements. Google is one of the reasons MTE even exists. I don't think GrapheneOS devs would be capable of helping push forward that technology in the same capacity.
Fair, and also Google is not a monolith. I’m sure that their own security experts who helped push things like MTE are also confused and frustrated by the lack of internal adoption.
A lot of heavy lifting is involved at the lower levels of security and Graphene doesn’t have to deal with this work, generally. I guess my surprise comes at the “fit and finish” stage where Google regularly seems to be lacking.
Do we know if Google is operating on the frontier of the trade-off curve? What do we lose from Pixel Android when GrapheneOS security changes are made?
Elsewhere in the thread, someone reports that with MTE enforcement enabled, there are lots of crashes. And app and system service developers don't seem responsive to them.
That's not something that's really acceptable on a $500+ phone... so if you're Google, you're not going to turn that on by default and you're not really going to be interested in keeping it as a feature that users can turn on.
Graphene has a different focus, so they can push the tradeoff towards enforcement and crashes rather than non enforcement and fewer crashes.
Google could perhaps do more with their crash logs and pushing app developers to fix MTE crashes, but they don't often do a lot of that; and they get called out for being developer unfriendly when they do enforcement.
There's a lot of speculation that US model censorship around "cyber capabilities" is about protecting an inventory of non-public vulnerabilities used for intelligence purposes. That same explanation could cover Google's MTE actions as a result of pressure from intelligence agencies. Nobody should be surprised if they prioritize what they see as national over personal security.
Since GrapheneOS is building on something that Google is giving away for free, I do hope that they release something better. Everything else would be.. kind of weird, no?
99.9% od the code GrapheneOS uses and 100% of hardware (including one like Titan security chip handling storage encryption and key store) is from Google.
So what are you on about man - it's easy to take someone else's work and put tweaks on it that wouldn't work at scale.
So not only a price increase: less RAM, performance scraping backwards, crippled/lost features, a camera system that captures stuttering audio and video imperfectly often, and Pixels dropping out of AOSP.
Yet, you can pick up a Samsung S26 for 600 Euro that will absolutely demolish a Pixel 11 in practically every aspect except cameras. Years ahead in CPU/GPU performance, etc.
I am almost certainly going to live with whatever drawbacks in terms of camera quality, battery life, etc. Come with their Motorola phone when it's time to upgrade. MTE is such a non-negotiable for modern digital security on phones it's crazy Google would be so okay with this regression.
What's especially stuck in my mind lately is how insecure basically all desktop OS' feel. In at the point of buying a second and third GPU for my desktop to run my email and browser in dedicated VMs because everything feels as watertight as a sieve. Qubes seems more and more appealing in a world where every open source software supply chain is under seige, corporate software underprioritizes security, and most sites will stop at almost nothing to surveil you.
I truly lament this new reality where MY computers I PURCHASED feel to use like I'm reaching blind into a paper bag filled with razor blades.
>What's especially stuck in my mind lately is how insecure basically all desktop OS' feel. In at the point of buying a second and third GPU for my desktop to run my email and browser in dedicated VMs because everything feels as watertight as a sieve. Qubes seems more and more appealing in a world where every open source software supply chain is under seige, corporate software underprioritizes security, and most sites will stop at almost nothing to surveil you.
I made the same observations and conclusions as you, but a few years ago. I have been daily driving Qubes OS exclusively since on my Thinkpads. If you haven't started to yet, I implore you to consider the following when buying a system for Qubes: mid-line CPU with plenty of PCs (turn off the ECs), As much RAM as you can afford (seriously, budgetmaxxx on RAM), dedicated secondary GPU with the minimum specs you need is a must for inference (may have to widen the budget a little bit after budgetmaxxing RAM).
Expect to not game on the platform. I have not tried this but if you can't cut the digital crack-cocaine habit then it may be possible to set up a gaming qube which takes the dGPU passed through: get a monitor + second USB keyboard & mouse, plug the monitor into the dGPU's HDMI ports, and pass through the secondary peripherals. Digital crack-cocai... err games... don't like having their frames pushed over X11 forwarding even if the dGPU is passed through, so you will need the monitor; the secondary input devices are so the mouse and keyboard inputs don't leave the gaming qube.
> What's especially stuck in my mind lately is how insecure basically all desktop OS' feel.
I ended up switching away from using my Mac to using an iPad M5 + Magic Keyboard as my sole computing device for the security benefits, and it’s been working pretty well and in retrospect I don’t miss anything from macOS aside from a chromium-based browser. However I’ve said it before that switching back to using a Mac after using iPadOS for so long feels like a serious regression, for all it’s faults the iPad + iPadOS feels like a futuristic technology preview of macOS.
For development work I use GitHub Codespaces (and self-host Coder in the future hopefully). I was moving towards cloud/container-based development already and it works nicely. Plus NPM vulnerabilities are no longer a serious issue. Again the only thing I miss is Chromium, but I’ve altered front-end development planning to target Safari/Firefox since websites shouldn’t be implementing non-standard Chrome-exclusive features anyway imo (I’m saying this as someone who highly prefers chromium lol).
GrapheneOS: "Multiple Google engineers we've contacted have said they aren't able to give us any information about this so we're left doing reverse engineering and relying on leaks. The leaks do not seem reliable and do not match what we see. Our concern is that MTE may actually be broken due to CPU errata."
> It's possible to enable reserving the tag memory for MTE via `fastboot oem mte on`, boot a non-stock kernel ignoring arm64.nomte and use MTE.
What I'd like to know is, is it not sufficient to just check the feature bits in ID_AA64PFR1_EL1? (Isn't this the first thing you'd try when trying to determine if the hardware supports some feature?)
If they were making the determination solely based on the fact that `arm64.nomte` is being passed to the kernel (or based on what features are exposed by kernel interfaces), it may have been better to say "MTE is seemingly disabled in the current Android release" rather than claiming that it's simply not present in hardware. If you're asking the Linux kernel about hardware features, maybe it takes cmdline arguments into account when presenting that info to userspace.
The TRM[^1] mentions that some of the feature bits depend on BROADCASTMTE (presumably some CPU input pin), but maybe that signal isn't constant and is allowed to change based on what happens in firmware/the bootloader?
Also, why the claim about the lack of hardware acceleration for MTE in the caches, is there evidence for that, or is this also a misunderstanding?
I think it's reasonable to assume that the perf impact of MTE is non-negligible (on cores in older Pixel devices[^2], MTE apparently suffers from the fact that checked stores are serializing!), but it's entirely possible that this does not follow from some physical design concession when implementing the SoC. The characterization of all this as some kind of cost-cutting measure is not necessarily accurate.
Fascinating, thank you. It seems strange that the C1-Pro/C1-Ultra TRM mention that ID_AA64PFR1_EL1[11:8] should still be non-zero even when BROADCASTMTE is low.
edit: Oh, I guess Linux does emulate the feature registers, doh. Since that user is booting with arm64.nomte, the kernel is changing those feature bits to zero! This probably explains the confusion here about hardware support: in Linux userspace, you still trap for system register reads, and this is just abstracted away from you...
Phones typically have 2 operating systems: one to handle telephonic functions like managing tower connections and separate operating system for user applications. The security implication here is that the telephonic operating system has access to the same system resources as the application operating system at the same time, right? The problem is your data is always available in plaintext to the telephonic OS because it has to be stored somewhere before it gets encrypted, so assuming graphene OS doesn't handle both functions its not a perfectly closed loop system.
> The security implication here is that the telephonic operating system has access to the same system resources as the application operating system at the same time, right?
> The baseband is isolated on all of the officially supported devices. Memory access is partitioned by the IOMMU and limited to internal memory and memory shared by the driver implementations. The baseband on the officially supported devices with a Qualcomm SoC implements Wi-Fi and Bluetooth as internal sandboxed processes rather than having a separate baseband for those like earlier devices.
A separate OS runs the security chip (like Titan). Another could be running in EL3 (Trusted Execution Environment), yet many could be running in Realms (mutually untrusted VMs). The later stage bootloaders and some firmware (ex: GPUs) themselves could be considered OSes in their own right.
No, shared peripherals need to go through a central arbiter for access. In the case of things like storage the AP's OS, eg android, provides that roll. This is also true for the OS that runs under the trustzone. Be careful about spreading rumors without validating them.
Most devices have a large number of operating systems. The camera also has one, and the storage has one if it's eMMC. The WiFi/BT chip has one. The AP has at least two, because of trustzone.
People bring up the baseband (ie. cell modem) having its own OS because someone gave a talk on it at defcon or something, but it's just one of many.
Boo. I was delighted by its introduction in pixel 8. I thought this was a resurgence of the old Google, actually giving a f about software, security and the end user.
iPhone 17 has it now. maybe Google's work here is done
So, where does the restriction for side loading apps live, on the device or the OS? Curious about getting the Pixel 11 Pro if/when I can install GrapheneOS.
GrapheneOS themselves said it wasn't worth getting the 11 over the 10 on Twitter. It has a worse GPU and less RAM, and the increase in CPU speed is so negligible that often you end up with better performance using the previous generation. In addition, GrapheneOS isn't even available on 11 series devices yet.
The 11 series has a new MediaTek modem compared to previous Pixels(since 7 I think?). The old modem had power efficiency issues during poor cellular signal as well as a relatively lengthy GPS lock acquisition.
I don't think there is enough evidence yet about either but I can attest that GPS feels improved over my 7. It's only been 1 week though.
The non-Pro 11 has a much larger photo sensor and has more base storage. Everyone has different priorities. I'm not saying which is better but trying to give a more complete picture.
My strong instinct is that GrapheneOS's plan could be problematic:
Generally, do not to invest in features that the upstream vendor isn't fully committed to. It might work today, but tomorrow or next year, etc., it might not. They might even deploy other things that are incompatible or do other things that assume the feature is disabled. In fact, plans to do those things might be the reason they disabled MTE.
Also, never support products or projects that won't work well. When someone's Pixel 11 is slow, they will think and post that 'GrapheneOS is slow'. Blaming Google will not be very credible and will look like you're just trying to duck responsibility. Your brand's name goes whatever you release; people will associate their experience with GrapheneOS (also because GOS is the new, unconventional thing; Google is the established norm); if their experience is bad, they will associate it with GOS.
GrapheneOS is a non-profit, publicly naming the actual issues is the only thing they can do to make Google fix those issues. And it is clear that security/privacy is their first priority, not "brand image"
Some on HN defend everything GOS does (maybe not you, but there are some). Those people are hurting GOS.
Good security engineering isn't sufficient: GOS could accomplish the security engineering by making an OS for themselves on a private git server and never distributing it.
But if we want to help the public with security and privacy, then the outcome depends on GOS's brand image - perception drives public adoption, who will never read long posts on arcane engineering matters. It depends on GOS's relationship with Google and its individual engineers, a relationship in which Google and the engineers hold all the cards - they could choose to cut off GOS completely tomorrow at no cost to themselves.
It's an engineer's fantasy that you can ignore those things and just do engineering; life just isn't like that. Doing that would imperil or greatly limit GOS, which hurts everyone.
Their plan is to seemingly comprehensively test MTE on the Pixel 11 to see if it's usable for them. I'm not sure how that's "problematic", in fact it seems like it's exactly what they should be doing.
Their real focus is on their Motorola partnership, anyway.
The thread made it sound like it was more- that the actual release of pixel 11 did not have the firmware to support MTE, not that it was just disabled.
The performance isn't really that bad but it's definitely a hit. The bigger issue is that it causes apps and services and occasionally also the kernel to throw MTE SIGSEGV which becomes a substantial problem if the developers for said apps or services don't care enough to fix them.
So the TLDR is that the main issue is that it causes a whole bunch of stuff to segfault when bad memory accesses occur but where they wouldn't segfault without MTE. It makes the phone feel unstable to average users since stuff just crashes with no real end-user-facing explanations.
> that Graphene seems to want to complain about everything and anything that doesn't fit their niche use case
What would you want them to complain about instead? Of course they'll complain about that, just like Googlers will complain about things affecting their stock price, no one is surprised that people care about stuff they're personally involved in, it makes a lot of sense.
Now if these complaints weren't accurate, then I'd walk with you and feel a bit more negative with each piece. But the ones I've looked into, have been spot on, so who cares if it's for their specific niche? I expect them to care about their niche, that's why those people all work together in that organization in the first place.
> As much as it seems beloved here, people that flash custom Android OSs are the very definition of niche users.
Hmm... Let's try reframing this: "as much as it seems beloved here, people that install their own operating systems on PCs are the very definition of niche users"
I'm absolutely certain that's how IBM felt before the clones. But the ability to install what they wanted on a defacto standard platform is what launched the computing revolution. I think we'd still be living in a sterile monopolistic environment with $10k compilers otherwise.
Folks installing their own ROMs on phones are only niche because they've been pushed out at every opportunity using locked bootloaders, embedded security processors, factory installed secret keys, etc.
Despite all that, there's still thriving communities developing and using custom ROMs on their phones. That demonstrates more than niche demand.
> Hmm... Let's try reframing this: "as much as it seems beloved here, people that install their own operating systems on PCs are the very definition of niche users"
I mean yeah, 99% of people never installed an OS and never will, what's your point here?
Perhaps they complain because that's literally the only way to get Google to take notice?
Let's be real, AOSP doesn't exist any more. Google have closed down nearly everything. All the development happens in private, you've stopped addressing bugs raised by the public, the source of patches are only infrequently released, device trees are gone.
All the development happens in private, you've stopped addressing bugs raised by the public, the source of patches are only infrequently released, device trees are gone.
To emphasize this point a bit more: only "QPR0" (major release) and QPR3 are released as part of AOSP. QPR1 and QPR3 are not released at all anymore, but contain fixes for vulnerabilities that are not marked high/critical (so don't end up in ASB). It is not clear to me whether OEMs get access to QPR1 and QPR3, but Google are not only witholding features, but also a set of security fixes.
Besides that, they are torpedoing other systems through Play Integrity.
IMO it would be best if AOSP was spun off from Google into its own org that actually cares about developing an open source system for others (both open source systems like GrapheneOS/Lineage and commercial vendors like Samsung) and that would have an attestation system that is open to vendors that have good device security.
If they're just some "niche use case" then why would Motorola partner with them? The way they see it,
> By combining GrapheneOS’s pioneering engineering with Motorola’s decades of security expertise, real‑world user insights, and Lenovo’s ThinkShield solutions, the collaboration will advance a new generation of privacy and security technologies. In the coming months, Motorola and the GrapheneOS Foundation will continue to collaborate on joint research, software enhancements, and new security capabilities, with more details and solutions to roll out as the partnership evolves.
You might not like their style of speech, at least they care about their users. Maybe Google uses nice flowery language that makes the reader feel nice—IDC—actions speak louder than words.
Stock Pixel is an awful experience. So many useless notifications, popups, ads, privacy not by default.
Company: "We care about your privacy" meanwhile 1400 corporations they share data with
GrapheneOS: "There's zero telemetry in GrapheneOS"
The more you read the more you realize they are nearly always correct.
> Stock Pixel is an awful experience. So many useless notifications, popups, ads, privacy not by default.
Huh? What pixel are you on? You only get notifications from stuff you install after the initial setup is done. And even then you can outright mute applications, completely.
Even in the EU spyware use is prevalent (and i 'd guess everywhere else in the world). There have been many scandals of government authorized commercial spyware been deployed against journalists. Is it really that niche a mobile OS that tries to not be exploitable by them?
So other projects are not supposed to critize Google? Graphene's focus is on security and they complain about lack of security in your products. Seems valid to me.
Also security and using non-Google OS are not niche usecases. I'm not sure how you are working on Android, the most popular OS while claiming security is a niche usecase. In fact, I have less confidence in security of your work.
Thankfully the project doesn't care about your personal attitude. That "niche use case" literally saves lives in countries where saying the wrong thing can put you to death. Since when is calling something out a rant?
This doesn't read as a rant to me, but as calm and factual, regarding a genuine security regression that merits public attention. What is your interest in mischaracterizing it?
Could you please explain why supporting MTE/potentially EMTE in production as a goal represents a niche use case? Isn't mitigating memory corruption issues a mainstream ideal? How else would you propose to do it?
> people that flash custom Android OSs are the very definition of niche users.
This is a mischaracterization. The niche isn't Android hobbyists, it's people with what should be a basic expectation for privacy. I wouldn't flash GOS or any other OS if I could safely avoid it.
Maybe if Google did not shove their spyware down people's throats and actually allowed users control of their phones, there wouldn't be a need for projects like Graphene and Lineage. Until then, complaints are more than justified.
Security shouldn’t be a niche use case. There’s a constant trickle of CVEs, and spyware vendors are known to abuse these exploits in their software. All this on devices that are reachable in the US through a text or MMS, sent to an easily located 10 digit number that isn’t easily changed. These are devices that people now use for all kinds of sensitive tasks!
Security should be the number one priority, frankly. Graphene has shown that this is possible, and they have tried multiple times to get Google to integrate their work.
... and my opinion becomes more positive with each rant. We'll have to agree to disagree. The only reason I buy Pixels for myself and my family members is because of GrapheneOS, otherwise it would be used out of date hardware for LineageOS or some kind of Linux phone. I am thankful that they are attempting to diversify with Motorola, being entirely Pixel dependent has been a project vulnerability; anytime Google decided to lock down the boot loader, it would have been curtains for the project.
I've never seen them call it "evil". I've seen them debunk CalyxOS security claims as well as criticism of GrapheneOS, and they usually provide some serious reasoning and technical information when they do it. They know what they're talking about.
Don't take it personally. I'm a huge fan of Linux, and GrapheneOS routinely comes here and calls it a huge security liability. And they are right.
Tbf with all the information that has come to light since then Rossmann and FUTO were also not behaving correctly and it was fair from him to deny coming onto their show (where they have also invited fascists before)
I'm not an AOSP engineer, but that was my thought reading GOS's comments: Why be negative toward the people who you want help from?
What help though? Google has closed off AOSP and only does source code drops twice a year. Google has embargoed security patches for three months and only provides them to OEMs of Google-certified Android phones, not other AOSP-based projects. Google stopped providing git trees of kernel sources and instead requires projects to submit a request for a Google drive link for each kernel version that takes up to weeks to process. Google is shutting out open Android systems through Play Integrity.
Google is not helping anymore, over the last 1-2 years they have tried everything to sabotage AOSP-based projects. The only reason that they are not fully closing AOSP is probably because 1.) they would get in hot water with regulators; and 2.) AOSP will probably get forked.
For anyone else not knowing what MTE stands for:
> Memory safety bugs, which are errors in handling memory in native programming languages, are common code issues. They lead to security vulnerabilities as well as stability problems.
>Armv9 introduced the Arm Memory Tagging Extension (MTE), a hardware extension that allows you to catch use-after-free and buffer-overflow bugs in your native code.
https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/arm-mte
MTE is essentially hardware-accelerated AddressSanitiser[1].
[1]: https://clang.llvm.org/docs/AddressSanitizer.html
No MTE and AddressSanitizer are implemented completely differently under the hood and catch different kinds of memory bugs.
MTE tracks provenance of pointers which means it catches bugs where a valid pointer derived from one allocation is used to access another allocation. Provenance is indicated by a fixed number of tags available. So there’s a 7% chance of not detecting an occurrence of a memory bug.
ASan is implemented differently: it adds red zones next to allocations. In theory it could have a false negative if a pointer jumps over the poisoned region. But it works well for stack memory in addition to heap memory. MTE doesn’t protect your stack allocated objects.
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To expand a bit: 16-byte chunks of memory can be associated with a four bit tag. Then you steal four unused high bits from your pointers to store a tag value. When memory has a tag, a pointer used to access it must have the matching tag in its high bits. Your malloc implementation can then assign a different tag to adjacent allocations and any overflow into an adjacent allocation will have a mismatched tag and will trap. Likewise, change the tag on free and an attempt to use the pointer after the allocation has been freed will trap.
Of course, this doesn't come for free. Four bits per 16 bytes means a 3% increase in memory needed for tagged memory, hardware overhead for checking tags on memory accesses, and software overhead of setting/changing/clearing tags as necessary. This overhead is low (Apple shipped this in flagship hardware a year ago and nobody's complaining about performance there) but not zero, and an implementation with poor performance could be a real problem.
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In case anyone wants to learn more how ASan works, I wrote a blog post on it at https://blog.trailofbits.com/2024/05/16/understanding-addres...
It also explains that the fact ASan works well with, e.g., std::vector in C++ doesn't come for free and if you want ASan to detect bugs when your custom collections or allocators are used you have to use special ASan API to mark [in]accessible memory.
Unfortunately, the headline is somewhat optimistic compared to the reality, I think.
The thread makes it sound like it could have been disabled due to errata or performance issues. Basically, it looks like the software Google is shipping intentionally doesn't use MTE on the Pixel 11 hardware. That raises the question of...what does Google know is wrong with MTE on the Pixel 11?
> it looks like the software Google is shipping intentionally doesn't use MTE on the Pixel 11 hardware. That raises the question of...what does Google know is wrong with MTE on the Pixel 11?
Apple replaced MTE with an upgraded version that can run in synchronous mode all the time without the performance hit.
> Consider that MTE can be configured to report memory corruption either synchronously or asynchronously. In the latter mode, memory corruption doesn’t immediately raise an exception, leaving a race window open for attackers... We believe memory safety protections need to be strictly synchronous, on by default, and working continuously.
https://security.apple.com/blog/memory-integrity-enforcement...
Google may just be getting ready to follow suit.
> Google may just be getting ready to follow suit.
That may well be, but it's a regression for the time being, since Advanced Protection mode presumably no longer uses MTE (or a replacement for MTE), whereas it did on the Pixel 8, 9, and 10.
It seems like they should've continued to offer MTE until the replacement was ready.
I've read that there's a significant performance cost to MTE on Android (or on Tensor). It might just be that.
There's only a significant cost to synchronous MTE.
MTE ships two modes. synchronous mode and asynchronous mode. SYNC is slower but gives you far better traces and throws an SEGV_MTESERR as soon as violations happen. ASYNC however is async so there's a bit of a delay between a violation and the "catch" that throws SEGV_MTEAERR.
Strictly speaking async is worse for security because there's a brief window of time where the process "gets away with it" but the main differentiator is that because things don't stop the moment the violation occurs, SEGV_MTEAERR traces tend to be some degree of "out of date" vs SEGV_MTESERR which capture the exact state of the world the moment the error occurs.
The main tradeoff here is that async MTE has basically negligible cost. Something like 1-5% in practice but in microbenchmarks you can see up to 50%. Vs synchronous MTE where the penalty is on average closer to like 10-15% but in microbenchmarks it can be like 5-6x slower.
So yeah the perf cost is there but it's really not a major issue.
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The main issue is that apps and services crash when an MTE segfault occurs. So this means that to the uninformed end user apps appear spuriously unstable with no meaningful context. And it's not just apps. On graphene I see MTE segfaults semi regularly from various system daemons (mainly related to GPS/nav) and occasionally in Google Play Services itself.
From time to time I get them in Youtube and I constantly get them in the Twitch app. It's very annoying and the apps just crash when you happen to do some particular action leaving you walking on your toes to avoid accidentally tapping whatever magic pattern happens to invoke a MTE SIGSEGV until the next update. Doubly so since most apps provide no meaningful interface for uploading log traces to report these issues.
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If Google wanted to roll this out without the spurious crashes they'd need to deploy it and eat the minor perf hit but they'd need to register a global signal handler to capture these MTE SIGSEGVs and report them back to the services in question without crashing the app.
And most app devs don't care so they'd be taking a minor (or major) perf hit in exchange for logging errors that developers always ignore. Doubly so in the modern day of "just have AI fix/do XYZ and who cares about the consequences as long as it runs".
I'm not surprised they dropped it but I do honestly wish they'd forced the issue and just deployed it and forced apps to fix their shit.
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Nothing is wrong. They just don't use MTE yet, they probably have other priorities. They wanted to save some costs until they will use MTE, so they removed some hardware acceleration and downgraded the GPU. Simple as that.
AFAIK the other Pixel devices, going back to the 8, do use MTE in the stock OS. Some MTE features are only enabled when "Advanced Protection" is turned on in the OS settings, but the stock OS on those devices does make use of MTE. In the Android documentation, MTE is explicitly called out as one of the protection features enabled in the Advanced Protection mode.
So, I don't think it's accurate to say they don't use it yet. They were using it, and then they stopped. I think that's one of the reasons the linked GOS thread says they're concerned that "MTE may actually be broken due to CPU errata".
And axed 4GB of RAM. In many ways, the Pixel 10 Pro is the better device for running GrapheneOS (and maybe even Pixel UI). Well done Google!
The thermometer was nice too if you have kids.
It’s absurd that a small project like Graphene is able to run rings around a giant like Google in the security sphere. Almost makes you wonder if some of those vulnerabilities are intentionally allowed to exist.
Vulnerabilities in the world’s most popular (by volume) mobile OS could provide a plausibly deniable global espionage backdoor.
The perception that they are able to run rings around Google is not necessarily an accurate one. There are tradeoffs in any engineering situation and GrapheneOS devs make different ones based on different requirements. Google is one of the reasons MTE even exists. I don't think GrapheneOS devs would be capable of helping push forward that technology in the same capacity.
Fair, and also Google is not a monolith. I’m sure that their own security experts who helped push things like MTE are also confused and frustrated by the lack of internal adoption.
A lot of heavy lifting is involved at the lower levels of security and Graphene doesn’t have to deal with this work, generally. I guess my surprise comes at the “fit and finish” stage where Google regularly seems to be lacking.
Do we know if Google is operating on the frontier of the trade-off curve? What do we lose from Pixel Android when GrapheneOS security changes are made?
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Elsewhere in the thread, someone reports that with MTE enforcement enabled, there are lots of crashes. And app and system service developers don't seem responsive to them.
That's not something that's really acceptable on a $500+ phone... so if you're Google, you're not going to turn that on by default and you're not really going to be interested in keeping it as a feature that users can turn on.
Graphene has a different focus, so they can push the tradeoff towards enforcement and crashes rather than non enforcement and fewer crashes.
Google could perhaps do more with their crash logs and pushing app developers to fix MTE crashes, but they don't often do a lot of that; and they get called out for being developer unfriendly when they do enforcement.
That was partially true a couple years ago that there were some crashes related to it. It is absolutely not the case anymore.
Why not force it on an API change? It wouldn’t be the first time there was a breaking change.
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There's a lot of speculation that US model censorship around "cyber capabilities" is about protecting an inventory of non-public vulnerabilities used for intelligence purposes. That same explanation could cover Google's MTE actions as a result of pressure from intelligence agencies. Nobody should be surprised if they prioritize what they see as national over personal security.
>Almost makes you wonder if some of those vulnerabilities are intentionally allowed to exist.
the fact that someone can say that post-Dual_EC_DRBG/project-rubicon/eternalblue/eternalromance exposure boggles the mind.
Since GrapheneOS is building on something that Google is giving away for free, I do hope that they release something better. Everything else would be.. kind of weird, no?
What do you mean? Graphene is also free software and everyone including Google can use it and learn from it.
Just to nitpick, the facilitation by AOSP & ARM is available so it is not about the OS but about Google as a Hardware manufacturer.
They're running rings around google... by enabling features that google develops/support?
99.9% od the code GrapheneOS uses and 100% of hardware (including one like Titan security chip handling storage encryption and key store) is from Google.
So what are you on about man - it's easy to take someone else's work and put tweaks on it that wouldn't work at scale.
So not only a price increase: less RAM, performance scraping backwards, crippled/lost features, a camera system that captures stuttering audio and video imperfectly often, and Pixels dropping out of AOSP.
Google Pixel has the marketshare it deserves.
There's no phone that isn't like that this year
Fairphone gen6+ (vs gen6) got an increase in ram from 8 to 12 and from Snapdragon 7s gen3 to gen4. MSRP only went from 599 to 649.
Yet, you can pick up a Samsung S26 for 600 Euro that will absolutely demolish a Pixel 11 in practically every aspect except cameras. Years ahead in CPU/GPU performance, etc.
Yet no GrapheneOS.
I am almost certainly going to live with whatever drawbacks in terms of camera quality, battery life, etc. Come with their Motorola phone when it's time to upgrade. MTE is such a non-negotiable for modern digital security on phones it's crazy Google would be so okay with this regression.
What's especially stuck in my mind lately is how insecure basically all desktop OS' feel. In at the point of buying a second and third GPU for my desktop to run my email and browser in dedicated VMs because everything feels as watertight as a sieve. Qubes seems more and more appealing in a world where every open source software supply chain is under seige, corporate software underprioritizes security, and most sites will stop at almost nothing to surveil you.
I truly lament this new reality where MY computers I PURCHASED feel to use like I'm reaching blind into a paper bag filled with razor blades.
>What's especially stuck in my mind lately is how insecure basically all desktop OS' feel. In at the point of buying a second and third GPU for my desktop to run my email and browser in dedicated VMs because everything feels as watertight as a sieve. Qubes seems more and more appealing in a world where every open source software supply chain is under seige, corporate software underprioritizes security, and most sites will stop at almost nothing to surveil you.
I made the same observations and conclusions as you, but a few years ago. I have been daily driving Qubes OS exclusively since on my Thinkpads. If you haven't started to yet, I implore you to consider the following when buying a system for Qubes: mid-line CPU with plenty of PCs (turn off the ECs), As much RAM as you can afford (seriously, budgetmaxxx on RAM), dedicated secondary GPU with the minimum specs you need is a must for inference (may have to widen the budget a little bit after budgetmaxxing RAM).
Expect to not game on the platform. I have not tried this but if you can't cut the digital crack-cocaine habit then it may be possible to set up a gaming qube which takes the dGPU passed through: get a monitor + second USB keyboard & mouse, plug the monitor into the dGPU's HDMI ports, and pass through the secondary peripherals. Digital crack-cocai... err games... don't like having their frames pushed over X11 forwarding even if the dGPU is passed through, so you will need the monitor; the secondary input devices are so the mouse and keyboard inputs don't leave the gaming qube.
> What's especially stuck in my mind lately is how insecure basically all desktop OS' feel.
I ended up switching away from using my Mac to using an iPad M5 + Magic Keyboard as my sole computing device for the security benefits, and it’s been working pretty well and in retrospect I don’t miss anything from macOS aside from a chromium-based browser. However I’ve said it before that switching back to using a Mac after using iPadOS for so long feels like a serious regression, for all it’s faults the iPad + iPadOS feels like a futuristic technology preview of macOS.
For development work I use GitHub Codespaces (and self-host Coder in the future hopefully). I was moving towards cloud/container-based development already and it works nicely. Plus NPM vulnerabilities are no longer a serious issue. Again the only thing I miss is Chromium, but I’ve altered front-end development planning to target Safari/Firefox since websites shouldn’t be implementing non-standard Chrome-exclusive features anyway imo (I’m saying this as someone who highly prefers chromium lol).
12 hours before this was posted to HN: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/117198980596943121
GrapheneOS: "Multiple Google engineers we've contacted have said they aren't able to give us any information about this so we're left doing reverse engineering and relying on leaks. The leaks do not seem reliable and do not match what we see. Our concern is that MTE may actually be broken due to CPU errata."
> It's possible to enable reserving the tag memory for MTE via `fastboot oem mte on`, boot a non-stock kernel ignoring arm64.nomte and use MTE.
What I'd like to know is, is it not sufficient to just check the feature bits in ID_AA64PFR1_EL1? (Isn't this the first thing you'd try when trying to determine if the hardware supports some feature?)
If they were making the determination solely based on the fact that `arm64.nomte` is being passed to the kernel (or based on what features are exposed by kernel interfaces), it may have been better to say "MTE is seemingly disabled in the current Android release" rather than claiming that it's simply not present in hardware. If you're asking the Linux kernel about hardware features, maybe it takes cmdline arguments into account when presenting that info to userspace.
The TRM[^1] mentions that some of the feature bits depend on BROADCASTMTE (presumably some CPU input pin), but maybe that signal isn't constant and is allowed to change based on what happens in firmware/the bootloader?
Also, why the claim about the lack of hardware acceleration for MTE in the caches, is there evidence for that, or is this also a misunderstanding?
I think it's reasonable to assume that the perf impact of MTE is non-negligible (on cores in older Pixel devices[^2], MTE apparently suffers from the fact that checked stores are serializing!), but it's entirely possible that this does not follow from some physical design concession when implementing the SoC. The characterization of all this as some kind of cost-cutting measure is not necessarily accurate.
[^1]: https://support.arm.com/documentation/108014/0101/?lang=en
[^2]: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2601.11786
ID_AA64PFR1_EL1 was discussed five days ago
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/41564-pixel-11-doesnt-meet-...
Fascinating, thank you. It seems strange that the C1-Pro/C1-Ultra TRM mention that ID_AA64PFR1_EL1[11:8] should still be non-zero even when BROADCASTMTE is low.
edit: Oh, I guess Linux does emulate the feature registers, doh. Since that user is booting with arm64.nomte, the kernel is changing those feature bits to zero! This probably explains the confusion here about hardware support: in Linux userspace, you still trap for system register reads, and this is just abstracted away from you...
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/841e384b841a3d89c50b4...
A "Google bad" essay gets a lot more clicks.
"Aside from MTE, Google downgraded the Pixel 11 series GPU compared to the Pixel 10 series in addition to reducing RAM for base Pro models."
I will make a note not to buy this model.
Is this the worst quality control lapse since the Huawei Nexus core failures?
This isn't a quality control issue, but a beancounter-chooses-cheaper-parts issue.
One must believe that MTE was intended for use on this device, as it is present on everything down to the Pixel 6.
Everything else is in the realm of bean counters, I would think.
The GPU claim is contradicted by pretty much every benchmark though.
A company making multi billions of dollars in profit still looking to save money selling their flagship phone?
Google makes money, I'm not sure Pixel does.
Zero chance the Pixel division is net positive
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Phones typically have 2 operating systems: one to handle telephonic functions like managing tower connections and separate operating system for user applications. The security implication here is that the telephonic operating system has access to the same system resources as the application operating system at the same time, right? The problem is your data is always available in plaintext to the telephonic OS because it has to be stored somewhere before it gets encrypted, so assuming graphene OS doesn't handle both functions its not a perfectly closed loop system.
It shouldn't. As per https://grapheneos.org/faq#baseband-isolation:
IOMMU
The way it should have been all along.
> Phones typically have 2 operating systems
A separate OS runs the security chip (like Titan). Another could be running in EL3 (Trusted Execution Environment), yet many could be running in Realms (mutually untrusted VMs). The later stage bootloaders and some firmware (ex: GPUs) themselves could be considered OSes in their own right.
Also, the SIM card has its own operating system.
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No, shared peripherals need to go through a central arbiter for access. In the case of things like storage the AP's OS, eg android, provides that roll. This is also true for the OS that runs under the trustzone. Be careful about spreading rumors without validating them.
Most devices have a large number of operating systems. The camera also has one, and the storage has one if it's eMMC. The WiFi/BT chip has one. The AP has at least two, because of trustzone.
People bring up the baseband (ie. cell modem) having its own OS because someone gave a talk on it at defcon or something, but it's just one of many.
Shouldn't the headline read "GrapheneOS: Pixel 11 has bare minimum hardware level MTE support"?
As currently written, one would take away an entirely different message from the headline.
Boo. I was delighted by its introduction in pixel 8. I thought this was a resurgence of the old Google, actually giving a f about software, security and the end user.
iPhone 17 has it now. maybe Google's work here is done
https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/1ndcrug/iphone_17_in...
So, where does the restriction for side loading apps live, on the device or the OS? Curious about getting the Pixel 11 Pro if/when I can install GrapheneOS.
GrapheneOS themselves said it wasn't worth getting the 11 over the 10 on Twitter. It has a worse GPU and less RAM, and the increase in CPU speed is so negligible that often you end up with better performance using the previous generation. In addition, GrapheneOS isn't even available on 11 series devices yet.
The 11 series has a new MediaTek modem compared to previous Pixels(since 7 I think?). The old modem had power efficiency issues during poor cellular signal as well as a relatively lengthy GPS lock acquisition.
I don't think there is enough evidence yet about either but I can attest that GPS feels improved over my 7. It's only been 1 week though.
The non-Pro 11 has a much larger photo sensor and has more base storage. Everyone has different priorities. I'm not saying which is better but trying to give a more complete picture.
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interesting. what about the side loading apps? I assume that's an OS and Graphene would likely allow it?
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The OS, obviously
My strong instinct is that GrapheneOS's plan could be problematic:
Generally, do not to invest in features that the upstream vendor isn't fully committed to. It might work today, but tomorrow or next year, etc., it might not. They might even deploy other things that are incompatible or do other things that assume the feature is disabled. In fact, plans to do those things might be the reason they disabled MTE.
Also, never support products or projects that won't work well. When someone's Pixel 11 is slow, they will think and post that 'GrapheneOS is slow'. Blaming Google will not be very credible and will look like you're just trying to duck responsibility. Your brand's name goes whatever you release; people will associate their experience with GrapheneOS (also because GOS is the new, unconventional thing; Google is the established norm); if their experience is bad, they will associate it with GOS.
GrapheneOS is a non-profit, publicly naming the actual issues is the only thing they can do to make Google fix those issues. And it is clear that security/privacy is their first priority, not "brand image"
Some on HN defend everything GOS does (maybe not you, but there are some). Those people are hurting GOS.
Good security engineering isn't sufficient: GOS could accomplish the security engineering by making an OS for themselves on a private git server and never distributing it.
But if we want to help the public with security and privacy, then the outcome depends on GOS's brand image - perception drives public adoption, who will never read long posts on arcane engineering matters. It depends on GOS's relationship with Google and its individual engineers, a relationship in which Google and the engineers hold all the cards - they could choose to cut off GOS completely tomorrow at no cost to themselves.
It's an engineer's fantasy that you can ignore those things and just do engineering; life just isn't like that. Doing that would imperil or greatly limit GOS, which hurts everyone.
Their plan is to seemingly comprehensively test MTE on the Pixel 11 to see if it's usable for them. I'm not sure how that's "problematic", in fact it seems like it's exactly what they should be doing.
Their real focus is on their Motorola partnership, anyway.
To clarify, regarding the confusion: it was disabled, leading them to think it didn't outright exist.
Why disabled? Well, its performance is apparently quite poor. But why?
...Apparently to save money.
The thread made it sound like it was more- that the actual release of pixel 11 did not have the firmware to support MTE, not that it was just disabled.
Is the thread wrong or did I misread it?
Nah sorry my bad. I mixed up "it's currently disabled" and "the hardware is there" into "it was earlier disabled".
The performance isn't really that bad but it's definitely a hit. The bigger issue is that it causes apps and services and occasionally also the kernel to throw MTE SIGSEGV which becomes a substantial problem if the developers for said apps or services don't care enough to fix them.
So the TLDR is that the main issue is that it causes a whole bunch of stuff to segfault when bad memory accesses occur but where they wouldn't segfault without MTE. It makes the phone feel unstable to average users since stuff just crashes with no real end-user-facing explanations.
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Weird how reports about GrapheneOS always come with some overtly generalized FUD that add nothing of value to the topic at hand.
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> that Graphene seems to want to complain about everything and anything that doesn't fit their niche use case
What would you want them to complain about instead? Of course they'll complain about that, just like Googlers will complain about things affecting their stock price, no one is surprised that people care about stuff they're personally involved in, it makes a lot of sense.
Now if these complaints weren't accurate, then I'd walk with you and feel a bit more negative with each piece. But the ones I've looked into, have been spot on, so who cares if it's for their specific niche? I expect them to care about their niche, that's why those people all work together in that organization in the first place.
> As much as it seems beloved here, people that flash custom Android OSs are the very definition of niche users.
Hmm... Let's try reframing this: "as much as it seems beloved here, people that install their own operating systems on PCs are the very definition of niche users"
I'm absolutely certain that's how IBM felt before the clones. But the ability to install what they wanted on a defacto standard platform is what launched the computing revolution. I think we'd still be living in a sterile monopolistic environment with $10k compilers otherwise.
Folks installing their own ROMs on phones are only niche because they've been pushed out at every opportunity using locked bootloaders, embedded security processors, factory installed secret keys, etc.
Despite all that, there's still thriving communities developing and using custom ROMs on their phones. That demonstrates more than niche demand.
> Hmm... Let's try reframing this: "as much as it seems beloved here, people that install their own operating systems on PCs are the very definition of niche users"
I mean yeah, 99% of people never installed an OS and never will, what's your point here?
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Perhaps they complain because that's literally the only way to get Google to take notice?
Let's be real, AOSP doesn't exist any more. Google have closed down nearly everything. All the development happens in private, you've stopped addressing bugs raised by the public, the source of patches are only infrequently released, device trees are gone.
Wouldn't you complain?
All the development happens in private, you've stopped addressing bugs raised by the public, the source of patches are only infrequently released, device trees are gone.
To emphasize this point a bit more: only "QPR0" (major release) and QPR3 are released as part of AOSP. QPR1 and QPR3 are not released at all anymore, but contain fixes for vulnerabilities that are not marked high/critical (so don't end up in ASB). It is not clear to me whether OEMs get access to QPR1 and QPR3, but Google are not only witholding features, but also a set of security fixes.
Besides that, they are torpedoing other systems through Play Integrity.
IMO it would be best if AOSP was spun off from Google into its own org that actually cares about developing an open source system for others (both open source systems like GrapheneOS/Lineage and commercial vendors like Samsung) and that would have an attestation system that is open to vendors that have good device security.
If they're just some "niche use case" then why would Motorola partner with them? The way they see it,
> By combining GrapheneOS’s pioneering engineering with Motorola’s decades of security expertise, real‑world user insights, and Lenovo’s ThinkShield solutions, the collaboration will advance a new generation of privacy and security technologies. In the coming months, Motorola and the GrapheneOS Foundation will continue to collaborate on joint research, software enhancements, and new security capabilities, with more details and solutions to roll out as the partnership evolves.
https://motorolanews.com/motorola-three-new-b2b-solutions-at...
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You might not like their style of speech, at least they care about their users. Maybe Google uses nice flowery language that makes the reader feel nice—IDC—actions speak louder than words.
Stock Pixel is an awful experience. So many useless notifications, popups, ads, privacy not by default.
Company: "We care about your privacy" meanwhile 1400 corporations they share data with
GrapheneOS: "There's zero telemetry in GrapheneOS"
The more you read the more you realize they are nearly always correct.
> Stock Pixel is an awful experience. So many useless notifications, popups, ads, privacy not by default.
Huh? What pixel are you on? You only get notifications from stuff you install after the initial setup is done. And even then you can outright mute applications, completely.
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Even in the EU spyware use is prevalent (and i 'd guess everywhere else in the world). There have been many scandals of government authorized commercial spyware been deployed against journalists. Is it really that niche a mobile OS that tries to not be exploitable by them?
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When you are a minority you have to be incredibly loud for any chance to sway things your way.
Not saying whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, but just the nature of reality.
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So other projects are not supposed to critize Google? Graphene's focus is on security and they complain about lack of security in your products. Seems valid to me.
Also security and using non-Google OS are not niche usecases. I'm not sure how you are working on Android, the most popular OS while claiming security is a niche usecase. In fact, I have less confidence in security of your work.
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Thankfully the project doesn't care about your personal attitude. That "niche use case" literally saves lives in countries where saying the wrong thing can put you to death. Since when is calling something out a rant?
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This doesn't read as a rant to me, but as calm and factual, regarding a genuine security regression that merits public attention. What is your interest in mischaracterizing it?
Could you please explain why supporting MTE/potentially EMTE in production as a goal represents a niche use case? Isn't mitigating memory corruption issues a mainstream ideal? How else would you propose to do it?
> people that flash custom Android OSs are the very definition of niche users.
This is a mischaracterization. The niche isn't Android hobbyists, it's people with what should be a basic expectation for privacy. I wouldn't flash GOS or any other OS if I could safely avoid it.
They are good enough to have their own Cellebrite column. If they complain about something, you should probably listen.
Maybe if Google did not shove their spyware down people's throats and actually allowed users control of their phones, there wouldn't be a need for projects like Graphene and Lineage. Until then, complaints are more than justified.
"I don't know anything but I don't like Graphene"
Well we know Google isn't enabling MTE, while LLM-enabled exploits are multiplying rapidly. Maybe you need to get back to work?
Security shouldn’t be a niche use case. There’s a constant trickle of CVEs, and spyware vendors are known to abuse these exploits in their software. All this on devices that are reachable in the US through a text or MMS, sent to an easily located 10 digit number that isn’t easily changed. These are devices that people now use for all kinds of sensitive tasks!
Security should be the number one priority, frankly. Graphene has shown that this is possible, and they have tried multiple times to get Google to integrate their work.
> I doubt I'd go far out of my way to help them, even if I had exposure to them.
Too busy crippling sideloading I guess
... and my opinion becomes more positive with each rant. We'll have to agree to disagree. The only reason I buy Pixels for myself and my family members is because of GrapheneOS, otherwise it would be used out of date hardware for LineageOS or some kind of Linux phone. I am thankful that they are attempting to diversify with Motorola, being entirely Pixel dependent has been a project vulnerability; anytime Google decided to lock down the boot loader, it would have been curtains for the project.
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I've never seen them call it "evil". I've seen them debunk CalyxOS security claims as well as criticism of GrapheneOS, and they usually provide some serious reasoning and technical information when they do it. They know what they're talking about.
Don't take it personally. I'm a huge fan of Linux, and GrapheneOS routinely comes here and calls it a huge security liability. And they are right.
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Tbf with all the information that has come to light since then Rossmann and FUTO were also not behaving correctly and it was fair from him to deny coming onto their show (where they have also invited fascists before)
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I'm not an AOSP engineer, but that was my thought reading GOS's comments: Why be negative toward the people who you want help from?
What help though? Google has closed off AOSP and only does source code drops twice a year. Google has embargoed security patches for three months and only provides them to OEMs of Google-certified Android phones, not other AOSP-based projects. Google stopped providing git trees of kernel sources and instead requires projects to submit a request for a Google drive link for each kernel version that takes up to weeks to process. Google is shutting out open Android systems through Play Integrity.
Google is not helping anymore, over the last 1-2 years they have tried everything to sabotage AOSP-based projects. The only reason that they are not fully closing AOSP is probably because 1.) they would get in hot water with regulators; and 2.) AOSP will probably get forked.
For those don't know you will either code in Rust or make sure MTE enabled.