It's sad that Tuta has fallen for Big Tech newspeak. Once upon a time, we installed stuff on our devices. Calling it side-something makes it seem frowned upon, which plays right into Google's hand.
Got any citations for that? The first time I personally ever encountered the term "sideload" was at a Microsoft developer demo for the upcoming Windows Phone around 2010, and another audience member raised his hand to ask what that term meant.
That is untrue. It's called "installing" or just "running". Sideloading makes no sense if you describe normal installing that way. The side load is the app store.
I am not sure about that. Windows, Linux based devices were like that but for a lot of things like gaming consoles etc. you were locked into the ecosystem and 'side loading" was indeed something.
I do understand developer mindset but I would be pretty unhappy if my mother's phone could just install stuff. A lot of people get harmed and lose their life's saving over wrongly installed crap.
A good middle ground for the Big Tech is to let folks pay $$, a money that is high enough and has sufficient friction.
That isn't even true about gaming consoles. They were completely open in the 90s and before. The consoles even lost lawsuits keeping it open. For newer consoles, a modchip doesn't side load, it enables normal loading without the drm check.
Bypassing/disabling drm would not be called sideloading.
If anything, the app store would be the sideload because they are loading the installer via a middleman instead of downloading the installer and running it yourself like normal.
Sideloading is a type of installing defined by the source of the file(s) being installed. Google will still allow installing from the Play store. The distinction is valid.
There's an `adb sideload` command for installing an app on your phone from your PC, with the file on your PC, it's like a remote install. For some reason some people also use the term to refer to installing stuff via apks in general, but if you download an apk from your phone's browser and then open it and install it, that is not sideloading AFAIK.
Nobody says "I'm downloading and installing an app from the official store for the platform". It's "installed an app" at best. And yes, Android phones had "an official" stores besides Play Market.
Eh, but you can just install apks now you don't need to say where it's from when you talk about it, or if I did I might say "install SillyOpenSourceApp" from Fdroid.
There is no such thing as an official store for anything. You can use any app store you want. But normal installing without an app store is called normal. The app store is the side show.
If an OS locks you to their brand's app store and blocks normal installation, that is not legal since its a monopoly action.
Guess it's a good thing that Android can't install updates via Ethernet, but I only connect my phone via Ethernet. My next phone is going to be a Linux phone, though, I guess.
The only reason I chose Android was being able to install my own "native" apps without Google having a say. If that function is gone, I simply have no reason to use Android, I actually like IOS better in terms of UI, so I'll just move to Apple's ecosystem...
While using alternative OS on older Android devices.
You can still install your own apps and in my case your own operating system (graphene). The 24 hour wait to activate sideloads indefinitely seems like a non-issue to me.
How is this not mentioned in the article anywhere? I've seen similar articles and keep thinking: is this about the 24 delay or something else. It just leads to confusing messaging.
Except there were websites requiring you to install ActiveX and proprietary plugins to do anything meaningful as soon as 1995? Also banks requiring proprietary security modules to access your account, they were pretty ubiquitous in the early 2000s where I lived.
The difference now is that accessing services through the internet is a necessity rather than a luxury. I guess passing laws could fix this, but it's exceptionally hard to get anything done through the barrage of big tech lobbying.
(warning dumb question incoming): since android apps are java, is it possible for a third contender to create a jvm for their platform and some hooks for android api’s and run anything that was made for them?
Yes. The main issue is hardware attestation, e.g. the bank's backend refusing to allow you to log in unless you can prove cryptographically that you are running a Google-certified device and operating system.
I almost never use dedicated apps. I am able to access all my bank and other financial accounts through their websites on mobile, no problem. (Vanadium browser on GrapheneOS)
I still don't understand whether this affects me if I have Google Play Store disabled and Google Play Protect disabled, will still affect me if I have Google Play Services enabled or do I have to disable them, install what I want and then reenable them? Sounds like quite stupid workflow, though not too worrysome.
Note that this mechanism IS ALREADY IN android phones, with currently play store services accepting side loading, but once that app upgrades (independent of even android upgrades) and so this is not like "your next phone restricts side loading", side loading will suddenly fail on your current phone.
I remember when sideloading referred to running `adb sideload` for installing applications from a remote host. The Android modding community has been scattered to the winds of time, it seems.
I am going to either buy a CommodoreOS phone (Jolla) or a Linux phone (TBD) at this point for any such purchases;
I currently have old phones who do not have this restriction, but if Google Play did this, I'd already be ready with Aptoid and ready to disable Play Store if I need to.
EU regulations do not require that, that's bullshit. Otherwise Microsoft and Apple would do the same and completely restrict what one can install on their laptop (Microsoft tried to force people to go through their store on Windows Family versions though, I'm glad they failed).
I despise everything about google, from surveillance and user hostility to monopoloy and genocide enablement, but I can understand this change everytime I look at my grandparents app menus, for me, it feels patronizing to have to wait 24hrs to enable basic functionality, but I can understand where does this come from.
Anyways, it is a good thread to remind people that Motorola partnered with GrapheneOS and will release GrapheneOS compatible devices next year.
It's sad that Tuta has fallen for Big Tech newspeak. Once upon a time, we installed stuff on our devices. Calling it side-something makes it seem frowned upon, which plays right into Google's hand.
It's a blue-bubblification, something which tricks the mind.
It's not newspeak, we've been calling it sideloading since the 90s
Got any citations for that? The first time I personally ever encountered the term "sideload" was at a Microsoft developer demo for the upcoming Windows Phone around 2010, and another audience member raised his hand to ask what that term meant.
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right but sideloading means installing outside the official channel. last i checked playstore was an option, not android official.
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That is untrue. It's called "installing" or just "running". Sideloading makes no sense if you describe normal installing that way. The side load is the app store.
Not for apps and games on most phones.
I made these and we installed them as JARs or Whatever Symbian used.
No, we called it installing software.
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Lol, no.
> we installed stuff on our devices
I am not sure about that. Windows, Linux based devices were like that but for a lot of things like gaming consoles etc. you were locked into the ecosystem and 'side loading" was indeed something.
I do understand developer mindset but I would be pretty unhappy if my mother's phone could just install stuff. A lot of people get harmed and lose their life's saving over wrongly installed crap.
A good middle ground for the Big Tech is to let folks pay $$, a money that is high enough and has sufficient friction.
That isn't even true about gaming consoles. They were completely open in the 90s and before. The consoles even lost lawsuits keeping it open. For newer consoles, a modchip doesn't side load, it enables normal loading without the drm check.
Bypassing/disabling drm would not be called sideloading.
If anything, the app store would be the sideload because they are loading the installer via a middleman instead of downloading the installer and running it yourself like normal.
Sideloading is a type of installing defined by the source of the file(s) being installed. Google will still allow installing from the Play store. The distinction is valid.
> Sideloading is a type of installing defined by the source of the file(s) being installed
Installing is the action of the owner of the device, to add functionality to that device by adding compiled executable code, regardless of the source.
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We should stop calling it "side-loading" and start calling it "front-loading." App store primacy in the users' minds is a cancer.
Why is it called side-loading here? Isn't that just downloading?
It's installing, not just downloading.
There's an `adb sideload` command for installing an app on your phone from your PC, with the file on your PC, it's like a remote install. For some reason some people also use the term to refer to installing stuff via apks in general, but if you download an apk from your phone's browser and then open it and install it, that is not sideloading AFAIK.
No that command is "adb install". The "adb sideload" command (which I did not even realize existed) is for installing custom firmware.
Downloading and installing an app from a source other than the official store included with the OS.
Because that is a mouthful people named it "sideloading".
Just call it "installing".
I don't "sideload" spotify on my windows machine, i installed it.
Nobody says "I'm downloading and installing an app from the official store for the platform". It's "installed an app" at best. And yes, Android phones had "an official" stores besides Play Market.
Eh, but you can just install apks now you don't need to say where it's from when you talk about it, or if I did I might say "install SillyOpenSourceApp" from Fdroid.
"Direct app installation"
There is no such thing as an official store for anything. You can use any app store you want. But normal installing without an app store is called normal. The app store is the side show. If an OS locks you to their brand's app store and blocks normal installation, that is not legal since its a monopoly action.
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Guess it's a good thing that Android can't install updates via Ethernet, but I only connect my phone via Ethernet. My next phone is going to be a Linux phone, though, I guess.
The only reason I chose Android was being able to install my own "native" apps without Google having a say. If that function is gone, I simply have no reason to use Android, I actually like IOS better in terms of UI, so I'll just move to Apple's ecosystem...
While using alternative OS on older Android devices.
You can still install your own apps and in my case your own operating system (graphene). The 24 hour wait to activate sideloads indefinitely seems like a non-issue to me.
https://support.google.com/android/answer/17588095
How is this not mentioned in the article anywhere? I've seen similar articles and keep thinking: is this about the 24 delay or something else. It just leads to confusing messaging.
There was no issue before.
So what the point of changing stuff and hope it does not create any issues ?
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https://keepandroidopen.org/
Petitions never do anything. Reverse engineering does.
I am not a fan of Apple or Google, but there is no other option that works with my everyday essential apps (e.g banking)?
I miss when websites made it possible to do essential things in my daily life without requiring I install something on my device.
Except there were websites requiring you to install ActiveX and proprietary plugins to do anything meaningful as soon as 1995? Also banks requiring proprietary security modules to access your account, they were pretty ubiquitous in the early 2000s where I lived.
The difference now is that accessing services through the internet is a necessity rather than a luxury. I guess passing laws could fix this, but it's exceptionally hard to get anything done through the barrage of big tech lobbying.
1 reply →
(warning dumb question incoming): since android apps are java, is it possible for a third contender to create a jvm for their platform and some hooks for android api’s and run anything that was made for them?
Yes. The main issue is hardware attestation, e.g. the bank's backend refusing to allow you to log in unless you can prove cryptographically that you are running a Google-certified device and operating system.
Anbox let's you run android apps on Linux. I'd assume it could also work on Mobian or something similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anbox
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GraphenOS?
I almost never use dedicated apps. I am able to access all my bank and other financial accounts through their websites on mobile, no problem. (Vanadium browser on GrapheneOS)
I still don't understand whether this affects me if I have Google Play Store disabled and Google Play Protect disabled, will still affect me if I have Google Play Services enabled or do I have to disable them, install what I want and then reenable them? Sounds like quite stupid workflow, though not too worrysome.
Note that this mechanism IS ALREADY IN android phones, with currently play store services accepting side loading, but once that app upgrades (independent of even android upgrades) and so this is not like "your next phone restricts side loading", side loading will suddenly fail on your current phone.
I'm excited to see what innovations, and new personal control over devices will be driven by the community out of this bad decision by Google.
I remember when sideloading referred to running `adb sideload` for installing applications from a remote host. The Android modding community has been scattered to the winds of time, it seems.
I am going to either buy a CommodoreOS phone (Jolla) or a Linux phone (TBD) at this point for any such purchases;
I currently have old phones who do not have this restriction, but if Google Play did this, I'd already be ready with Aptoid and ready to disable Play Store if I need to.
Walled garden models I guess
Best part is the justification that eu regulations require this
EU regulations do not require that, that's bullshit. Otherwise Microsoft and Apple would do the same and completely restrict what one can install on their laptop (Microsoft tried to force people to go through their store on Windows Family versions though, I'm glad they failed).
Too late now. Anyone could see this coming since they added a whitelist for bluetooth obex in 2009. Nobody said anything.
https://android.googlesource.com/platform/packages/apps/Blue...
I despise everything about google, from surveillance and user hostility to monopoloy and genocide enablement, but I can understand this change everytime I look at my grandparents app menus, for me, it feels patronizing to have to wait 24hrs to enable basic functionality, but I can understand where does this come from.
Anyways, it is a good thread to remind people that Motorola partnered with GrapheneOS and will release GrapheneOS compatible devices next year.
genocide enablement? i know that meta played a "determining role" in a genocide in Myanmar[0], but i wasn't aware of google doing similar things?
[0]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-faceb...
Google is contracting with the US government in ways that advance the destruction of Palestine.
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Sundar Pichai is violating anti-trust law for fun and profit.
The war has already been declared. It's just another battle.