Comment by mrandish
7 hours ago
> computers could count the Rs in strawberry since vacuum tubes. that measure is irrelevant.
I don't think it's irrelevant but perhaps not in the way you're assuming. When assessing AGI I'm not evaluating counting characters or even the execution of math operators at any scale or speed. As you observe, computer software from Regex to spreadsheets and Mathematica already handle that well. But AGI isn't about what computers can do, it's about whether AIs can do the specific things which, until now, have been uniquely human capabilities. Like understanding nuanced context and then coming up with novel approaches to solve a new kind of problem not relying on any specific prior training or knowledge (the 'G' is for General).
Most definitions of AGI start from a baseline that already assumes easily passing a Turing test and doing anything via text response that a high school graduate could. I ding LLMs not for failing to count but for failing to intuitively understand the nuanced context of a simple class of problem it hasn't seen in its training data. I fully understand that the reason LLMs fail letter counting is that they operate at the token level. They weren't trained on individual letters first, like human 2nd graders.
The only reason recent LLMs get strawberry and blueberry correct now is that they have those words on their pre-training 'cheat sheet'. However, the underlying fundamental weakness in the way LLM intelligence works which leads to this failure mode still hasn't been addressed. Even when the frontier labs add "recognize any sub-token counting question and write a Python script" to the training cheat sheet so LLMs always pass that test... they'll still be unable to recognize a simple class of problem which isn't on their 'cheat sheet'. As long as that's the case, to me, they aren't AGI because they can't fully replicate human-like recognition of novel problem classes. And it's not just about letter-counting. That gap and others like it lead to many other kinds of non-human brittleness in LLM problem solving. Those are the classes of reasoning, intuition and insight that the ARC-AGI series has been trying to queue up as targets. Not to show how bad LLMs are but to help them be great in all these counter-intuitive edge cases
appreciate your response, but it's still birds vs planes.
AI does not need to feel emotions or have a heartbeat to be useful. It only needs to perform a task correctly à la Chinese room.
>therefore cannot fully replicate human-like intelligence
this does not follow. planes don't flap wings therefore they cannot fly?
> planes don't flap wings therefore they cannot fly?
This example still misses my point, which isn't related to usefulness or economic value. I concede that LLMs can have greater utility and economic value than humans on many tasks. The point is most definitions of AGI include something like "can fully replicate all the routine daily tasks done by any competent high-school graduate." That's not related to whether LLMs can solve many high-value problems faster and at larger scale than any human. That was also true of ENIAC in 1946.
The fact an airplane can fly faster and farther than any bird is irrelevant to whether an airplane can "fully replicate all the routine daily tasks done by any competent bird." That's the bird equivalent to most AGI definitions. An airplane can't build a nest or recognize the signals encoded in birdsong.
In the same way airplanes fail the 'bird replacement' requirement, AIs currently fail most AGI requirements only on the terms: "fully", "all" and "any". And in this context, airplanes scoring 15,000% more than birds on 'speed' and 'distance' doesn't matter any more than AIs scoring 15,000% more than humans on 'add 10,000 numbers'. We still aren't near AGI because LLMs cannot fully match any high-schooler's ability to independently conceive new approaches to novel problems not in their prior training data.
> isn't related to usefulness or economic value
which gets us closer to philosophical questions which I'm personally not that interested in.
>In the same way airplanes fail the 'bird replacement' requirement, AIs currently fail most AGI requirements only on the terms: "fully", "all" and "any".
I'm not sure we want a machine that fully succeeds that test.
Planes pass the 'bird replacement' test on the only criteria that matters to us ... flying.
If we wanted nest making planes I think we'd have them by now. Nest making doesn't rate highly on the problems we're looking to solve though.
I don't want a machine that is moody, or depressed or has schizophrenia, which are all pat of the human condition.
We don't need the human "intuition magic dust" to do 99.99999% of useful work.
They're machines designed to do the work we don't want to. That's as "general" as their intelligence needs to be.
I'd prefer if my clothes folding machine did not have an existential crisis.
Models often write python scripts for counting such things…