Carbon-aware electricity pricing, measured daily on 38 grids

2 days ago (carbonawarepricing.com)

Here is an analysis from Germany: Quarter-hourly spot prices compared to the share of renewable energy generation in total generation. A higher share of renewables puts massive downward pressure on the spot market electricity price.

https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/price_scatter/chart.ht...

Since price elasticity for electricity is very high, the market cap decreases by approximately €150,000 for every additional GWh of renewable energy production. A single additional offshore wind turbine with an annual output of 60 GWh reduces the combined revenue of all electricity producers by about €9 million per year that it is in operation.

Blocking wind power and solar projects only serves to secure the profits of monopolists and oligopolists in the electricity market, but causes massive harm to the economy.

  • Good link. Germany is the case where it works cleanly — more renewables, lower price, lower carbon, all moving the same direction.

    • No amount of solar panels will generate electricity without sun light. Also the amount sun light can shrink quite a lot in winter months at high latitudes and under cloud cover.

      No amount of wind turbines will generate electricity without wind, or to be more precise:

      Cut-in speed: 3–4 m/s (12–15 km/h) to begin spinning and producing power.

      Cut-out / Stop speed: Above 25 m/s (90 km/h) where brakes are applied to prevent mechanical damage

      Germany has to have backups, currently quite expensive, for all this times of missing renewables production.

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  • This is interesting, but now explain why Germany has both the highest electricity prices in Europe as well as a relatively high CO2 footprint from electricity? Germany is buying not only nuclear but also coal energy from neighbouring countries.

    Will this be fixed at some point or is the German model not actually as good as you imply?

    • The main reason why electricity is expensive in Germany is because it's taxed to oblivion. Even when wholesale prices are negative, electricity costs about three times as much as gas.

      Now you might ask why electricity is taxed to oblivion. Some don't like nuclear or coal. Some prefer oil or gas. In the end, there's a majority that wants electricity to be expensive.

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    • All of Germany's neighbours, from which it buys electricity, are decarbonising so yes obviously it inevitably gets "fixed at some point".

      Germany's wholesale prices are similar to many other European countries, the worst is easily Ireland because of their geography, small, northern, coastal, they often need to import power, and that import has to come from Britain, which is between them and the continent, so their prices will almost always be higher than Britain's already not-great prices - we're obviously not going to sell the Irish £89 per MWh electricity and then charge our own users £119 per MWh for the same product.

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This is kind of a stupid preposition. the cheapest hour should be the cheapest with carbon externalities priced in. There are lots of times where it is both logical and good for the cheapeat hour to not be the lowest carbon (i.e minimum run times on foasil fuel plantspushing should hours very cheap because they are needed for the peak hours or forecast renewable drop off.) If the market isnt pricing the carbon externalities that is a seperate issue.

further the grid price only represents variable costs, congestion, and bidding strategies of gen to try and also recoup fixed costs and make a profit. This may translate to cheaper when lower carbon because variable cost is zero for many renewables but making it explicitly happen breaks the market price finding mexhanism and is probably an even larger aubsidy to renewables, which in itself is stupid vs just pricing the carbon externalities and letting the market decide.

Mine is just flat pricing but I do try to align it.

UK has big variations in carbon intensity depending on how solar & wind is doing, so easy enough to make a small effort to align discretionary things like washing machine with that

There is also a very nice dashboard for UK grid that shows clearly what's going on at any point in time.

https://grid.iamkate.com/

  • That dashboard is great. The UK is probably the best case for this in Europe. Moving the washing machine is basically what my model assumes, except it assumes everyone does it every day. NESO publishes a carbon intensity API, so the UK is an easy one to add. On the list.

The harder question is probably whether dynamic pricing changes behavior without mostly becoming a penalty for people who have less flexibility in when they use electricity

  • There should be a penalty for having less flexibility in consuming electricity. That’s how the market incentivizes us to figure out how to be flexible in our consumption.

    We should probably also subsidize the conversion, for people who look at the incentives, want to become more flexible, but don’t have the money.

    And we might have to handle some special cases—maybe hospitals, for example—where reliable power is an important social good. But these should be rare.

    • For households in Europe, there are some incentives to switch to heat pumps for heating... for best efficiency (and longevity), usually a heat pump needs to run at lower power constantly without switching off much.

      And since the heat pump will be the biggest total consumer in a household (in winter), there is not a huge opportunity for flexibility.

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  • I've long thought there should be a standard mechanism for back pressure for loads that can defer their usage.

    For example dishwashers, overnight battery charging, car charging, etc should be able to receive scheduling data from the grid to determine the best time to run.

    Users could of course be given a choice whether to use grid scheduling in exchange for lower prices or not.

    • This sort of thing was called “smartgrid” but it doesn’t seem to have caught on. Maybe we could lean into modern buzzwords.

      The electricity distribution system is a big sparse graph. If they are allowed to pass signals back and forth, don’t look too close, and maybe we can call it an AI enhanced grid. Then we can call this sort of ability to schedule appliances based on those signals “closed loop AI enhanced green appliances” or something similarly buzzwordy.

In my country (for people with a so called "dynamic pricing" contract) the price of electricity already drops significantly when we have a load of green energy (wind, solar). I guess this is just a side effect of not having a well-balanced grid. But still that's already kind of a CO2-based pricing - although not directly

  • This is what makes me wonder how much additional benefit an explicit carbon signal actually buys you over normal dynamic pricing

    • On grids where pricing declines due to more low carbon generation generating, there is no extra value. On grids where pricing declines due to more fossil generation running, that is the signal you want to avoid loads during those time windows.

      At the moment, lower prices are not necessarily a guarantee of lower emissions. And so, if you want to orchestrate loads to move them to the lowest emission time windows (perhaps not prioritizing cost), carbon signal is the way to do so.

  • Mostly yes, but it works the other direction as well: a fossil power station may not want to completely shut down because it expects more demand later in the day, and offer a few hours of low cost electricity to stay in the merit order.

My electricity provider has a near real-time graph of energy generation by source (wind, solar, coal, etc.) and I use this during off-peak times to decide when to use or avoid certain loads. For example I love charging batteries when solar is producing more energy than is being used by customers.

For a global map, check out Electricity Maps:

https://app.electricitymaps.com/

The idea is interesting but unfortunately most of the people don't know the electricity price even now without this mechanism. This should be displayed on top of every washing machine everywhere to make it works

On the long-term, the French option of just running a low-carbon grid remains the obvious solution.

  • Sure, but I don't think the two ideas are really in conflict. A low-carbon grid should absolutely be the end goal, but even a mostly clean grid has hours that are cleaner than others

    • These approaches always measure the wrong thing though - the average carbon cost of electricity.

      What you need to know is the marginal carbon cost, which will be much less variable as almost all dispatchable generation is fossil.

      So yes, you should avoiding adding load when there is a severe supply crunch and the marginal power is generated by gas peaker plants (often gas turbine based), and use power when renewable generation is otherwise being curtailed, but most of the time the grid is firmly in the middle regime with a fairly average marginal cost.

    • They are in conflict, because you can spend the same Euro only once. You could build a lot of batteries, solar panels and wind turbines for the cost of one nuclear plant

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  • Spending 19 billion € over 18 years to build 1.65GW Flamanville 3 is not quite obvious to me.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_(nuclear_reactor)#Flamanvi...

    Edit: compare this with China: they added 315 GW of Solar capacity in a single year (2025; see page 34 of the PDF).

    https://www.irena.org/Publications/2026/Mar/Renewable-capaci...

    (You can't compare nameplate capacity directly, but it can be safely assumed that 2 orders of magnitude more is ... actually more)

  • Not really. Nuclear power requires massive subsidies. In Germany, the "De Height" wind farm was completed in August. Sixty-four 15-MW turbines generate about 4 TWh of electricity annually, which is sold entirely on the open market without any EEG funding.

    The market for baseload electricity has disappeared in Germany, as renewables push the residual load to zero or below for almost the entire year:

    https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/power/chart.htm?c=DE&l...

    The base load is an imaginary line passing through the troughs of the residual load curve.

    • Yes, but then when the wind doesn't blow, you miss upto 960MW of capacity, you can choose how to fill that; solar, coal, gas, waterpower, diesel, nuclear.

      And the question is, are those wind turbines without subsidy?

      Here in the Netherlands some big energy users like Aldel already have stopped, those big users are also good in up and down scaling energy usage on demand, and also those products have to come from somewhere else now, so in the end the question is about energy and availability.

      Some (or a lot of) subsidies can be justified.

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  • France has been offering lower prices at night to make the most of their nuclear since the 1960s.

    Australia used similar tech to make the most of baseload coal overnight since the 1950s.

    It's just a good idea, and should be used to get cheaper cleaner power in grids today too.

    • It is not even an "idea". Is the consequence of nuclear power being so difficult to modulate to consumption. You give it for free by night, hoping that at least some people consumes, because the country is sleeping.

      Solar energy aligns so much better, peaking its production when the consumption is high, going to zero when the consumption gets low, except for the diner time. In Spain we get really low prices (sometimes near 0) in the middle of the day, you don't have to plan or incentivize night consumption.

  • Yep. Poisoning the planet with nuclear wast for a million years. 40,000 generations of our children will be happy and thankful.

    • Germany is currently operating the world biggest permanent storage for dangerous waste UTD Herfa-Neurode. Contains at least 690,000 tons of waste containing dioxins and furans, 220,000 tons of waste containing mercury, 127,000 tons of waste containing cyanide, and 83,000 tons of toxic waste containing arsenic. Nuclear waste is currently excluded, but I think it would not make a difference, especially because after about 400 years most dangerous fission products (Caesium-137, Strontium-90, and Iodine-131) decay away and only Plutonium and minor actinides stays. Mercury, arsenic, dioxins and furans stay forever.

      https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untertagedeponie_Herfa-Neurode

      https://radioactivity.eu.com/articles/radioactive_waste/acti...

      We learned quite lot about underground migration of plutonium over millennia because we studied the remnants of the natural nuclear fission reactor which nature run about approximately 1.7 billion years ago in Oklo, Gabon.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reacto...

      "Plutonium has moved less than ten feet from where it was formed almost two billion years ago contained in the sedimentary rocks that kept them from being dissolved or spread by groundwater."

      http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph241/voigt2/

    • I mean yeah. Nuclear waste is much safer than fossil fuel waste - deaths caused, radioactivity, etc

The EU does that since the emissions are taxed via the EU ETS and it just results in the most expensive electricity in the world.

I’ve been thinking about this the CO₂ usage could be part of the price. I had toyed with having a two dimensional price, the price alongside the CO₂ usage, but I guess that way madness lies.

Man, I am so tired of reading slop.

  • At this point I can tell fairly reliably from titles alone, "measured daily on 38 grids" is not the kind of thing a human would write in this context.

Hey guys, A small site that checks, every day, whether making electricity cheaper when the grid is clean would actually cut CO₂.

It reads yesterday's generation mix from ENTSO-E and the EIA, works out the carbon intensity hour by hour, and compares a normal tariff against two carbon-aware ones.

It started for Switzerland, which turned out to be a good place to start for an odd reason. Swiss electricity is already very clean — about 34 gCO₂/kWh — and yet it's one of the best grids in the set at 2.4%, because it imports from dirtier neighbours and its carbon intensity swings through the day. Louisville, at 741 g/kWh, gets 0.01%: it burns coal at the same rate around the clock, so there's no cleaner hour to move into.

Across 38 grids, the correlation between the saving and how dirty a grid is comes out slightly negative. With how much it varies, it's 0.91. Being dirty doesn't help at all — being uneven is the whole thing.

Fair warning: the demand response is a model rather than measured behaviour, and it uses average carbon intensity, not marginal. Happy to hear your thoughts.

  • Proportional decrease is not as useful in a climate change sense than actual decrease in co2 emissions. A grid that is highly sustainable with lots of wind and solar, but fossil peaker plants will have a lot more potential co2 savings in this model. It essentially makes dirty grids look cleaner.

  • Is it assumed that the total consumption remains the same (i.e there is an increase in consumption in clean energy when there is a decrease in less clean ones)?

    Otherwise, there would be an obvious solution which is to increase the price all the time to reduce demand and thus reduce CO2 consumption, but it is impractical politically.

    • I had the same question but about price (and its related impact on consumption, which is your question) -- are we assuming total spent / total consumed are held constant?

      It wasn't stated in the website and I didn't see anything about it from skimming the github. I didn't read the thesis, though :D

Nice. On Octopus Agile in GB the price already tracks the mix (roughly 2.2x day-ahead wholesale), so the carbon-aware tariff exists in the wild.

What bounds the response is not willingness but plumbing: which import/export products the supplier lets you pair, and the export limit on a single-phase connection (about 3.7 kW). I reconstructed a 200 kWh home battery on the published half-hourly rates for June to August: the exact optimum moves 50 to 60 kWh a day, and the connection is a bigger lever than the software by a factor of two to three.