Comment by andriy_koval
13 hours ago
> Goedel Incompleteness -- the proof that the the axiomatic itself cannot be proven, like using ZFC to prove ZFC, but that's another topic.
Godel theorems are for systems with basic arithmetic, zfc doesn't include arithmetic, thus are not object of Godel theorems.
If you start with "I'm not a strong expert" maybe you should stop continuing saying wrong stuff. What you just wrote is completely wrong.
support your point with explanation or be ignored :-)
Godel proved that any system expressive enough to produce an arithmetic is incomplete. He initially proved it for the peano axioms but then it got generalized. ZFC can produce an arithmetic. Also, before being arrogant and demanding explanations, you should give them first for your claims
12 replies →
ZFC has greater consistency strength than PA.
If we take ZFC (or some other set theory) as our meta theory, we can easily see that the axiom of infinity (of ZFC) gives a set of natural numbers (using the von Neumann encoding), which, when equipped with the successor function, is a model of the natural numbers.
zfc doesn't have functions, so you are building something new on top of it.
Also, I am not sure successor function is enough for PA.
It simply does have functions. According to ZFC, a function is a set whose members are pairs, such that no two different pairs have the same first element.
I mean this quite seriously: have you considered reading any first course in set theory?
> Moreover, Robinson arithmetic can be interpreted in general set theory, a small fragment of ZFC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zermelo%E2%80%93Fraenkel_set_t...
> interpreted
its hard to me to tell what this means formally(as I said I am not expert). There is no "interpret" operator in zfc. I believe what it says if you add some robinson axioms + some logical rules on top of zfc, you can carry your results.
It's the same way you don't need to have GCD in stdlib to say that you can compute GCD in C++. You can make your own using parts given.
You don't need to add any axioms, you just build some sets to represent numbers and make operations that act the same way as arithmetic, define some equality relations. Then you derive rules of arithmetic for your handcrafted arithmetic using ZF axioms and you're good. You get axioms of arithmetic derived from your regular axioms without adding them as new axioms to your theory.
That is wildly wrong.