Comment by rmunn
13 hours ago
> Did you mix up your code points there? It's space that's ambiguous, not tab.
Space is always the same width, but tab means a variable number of spaces (usually either 4 or 8, but I've seen 3 before) depending on people's editor configuration.
What makes you say that the space character, U+0020, is ambiguous?
A single tab always indicates (AFAIK, in common usage) a single level of indentation. Whereas depending on editor configuration a single level of indentation could be represented by any number of spaces - commonly somewhere between 4 and 8, but who can say?
Tab never "means" any number of spaces. How it gets displayed varies but the meaning (of any character, not just tab) can only ever be determined by usage, not display choices (at least for any sane way of doing things). Otherwise what would you make of escape sequences or binary files? Or constructs such as a nonbreaking space?
What business does a compiler have worrying about display width? As I said earlier worrying about the specifics of the editor or other tooling would be backwards information flow and a massive abstraction violation. What if I choose to program in a variable width font? (For the record writing that left me feeling disgusted.)
Got it. You're looking at the problem from the other direction. Yes, tabs are unambiguous if they're the only thing used for indentation. It's when some people use tabs and others use spaces that ambiguity arises.
But there are other cases where the variable-width nature of tabs can create ambiguity all by itself. Take this example from R7RS small:
If you write it like this, a smart editor (e.g., Emacs) would probably be able to do the right thing and line up the forms that follow the `cond`:
But to everyone else using a different editor, where the convention is "the tab character just advances to the next multiple of T" (where T is usually 4 or 8), then the second and third lines won't be correctly aligned. And then instead of being able to use the indentation as a visual reference and ignore the parentheses, those people will have to revert to counting parentheses in order to figure out what S-expression each form is part of. Granted, in this simple example that's not hard, but imagine that `cond` nested deep inside a larger expression including a `call/cc` and a `let` or two, rather than being at the top level where it's easy to read.
Here, the ambiguity is because the tab character needs to have a width of six characters in order to align with the text `(cond `. If that had been an `(if ` with just two forms (omitting the `(else 'equal)` case) then the tab would have needed to have a width of four characters. A smart editor that reads the Lisp code and can interpret `<tab>` as meaning "indent this form to align with the form on the line above", but any context that isn't syntax-aware, such as a git diff, will not align those tabs correctly.
Which is why I consider tabs to be ambiguous, because I'm looking at it from the perspective of "how many spaces does this correspond to", and spaces to be unambiguous.
> It's when some people use tabs and others use spaces that ambiguity arises.
I don't think so? Assuming we're talking about significant whitespace here and assuming we're maintaining a consistent prefix within a given block then AFAICT there is never any ambiguity. To argue otherwise it seems to me that one of two things must be true.
It could be that spaces are equally ambiguous because in theory you can use any number of either of them for a single level of indentation. While that isn't syntactically ambiguous I suppose it might bother some people.
Or it could be that the compiler is concerning itself with how different editors might choose to display a given line of text in different instances which is (IMO) fundamentally broken and a path down which only madness lies (and anyway suffers from the variable width font conundrum I pointed out earlier).
If you have any counterexamples I'd be interested to see them.
> But to everyone else using a different editor, where the convention is "the tab character just advances to the next multiple of T" (where T is usually 4 or 8), then the second and third lines won't be correctly aligned.
No, you've got a misconception here. An editor should never go out of its way to align that. That would be broken by design. Tabs are never for alignment. Never. Notice that syntactically no new scope has been introduced. So you are still at the same indentation level as the `cond` and you are aligning (thus you _must_ use spaces) a list of expressions that has been split one per line.
I think the entire controversy arises because people (incorrectly IMO) get the idea in their heads that a tab character has some fixed width. It does not. In the context of source code it communicates the concept of indentation, never anything more. It's entirely up to the editor how exactly to display indented code.
> Which is why I consider tabs to be ambiguous, because I'm looking at it from the perspective of "how many spaces does this correspond to", and spaces to be unambiguous.
Right, but that is in my view misguided and anyhow is not of any concern to the compiler. Recall that the original topic and my contention had to do with the possibility of syntactic ambiguity in a language with significant whitespace, not with formatting inconsistencies between different programmers.
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Surely tabs are only ambiguous if one considers the point of indentation to be to align things visually in relation to each other, as opposed to just being, y'know, indented.
Besides, I'm sure many people would look at your Scheme snippet and argue that it's not really about indentation as much as alignment of the subforms, because in a Lisp those two things are basically equivalent, and that the distinction between indentation and alignment is mostly a thing for the curly-brace or otherwise ALGOL-esque languages like Pascal or in this case Python. And in those cases the use of "tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment" is fairly popular although I don't frankly know if many editors actually support that.
I do however think that this whole discussion of spaces Vs tabs is pretty asinine and mostly just stems from people just wanting to align code text visually across lines. It's the same way people insist on monospaced fonts even though one could easily make the argument that proportional fonts are easier to read. Oh well, even I'm not _that_ deprived.
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Truly, indentation is the moveable feast. Even on ancient typewriters, you could adjust your tabs depending on what you are doing. And people who have dissimilar tastes in tabbage will certainly write stuff that doesn't appear that great in each others' editors.
> What business does a compiler have worrying about display width?
The business of the compiler is to insure that code that it deems acceptable is not ambiguous to different users. Since people can set their own tab spacing, display of tabs is, in an indentation-sensitive language, inherently ambiguous.
> What if I choose to program in a variable width font?
As long as the spacing of any prepended whitespace doesn't arbitrarily change depending on the phase of the moon, the compiler shouldn't (and Python doesn't) give a rat's ass about your display preferences.
The only important thing here is that the location of the left margin on every line is meaningful, both to the compiler, and to any viewers of your code.
> people who have dissimilar tastes in tabbage will certainly write stuff that doesn't appear that great in each others' editors.
Not for code, no. People will do that for spaces. For tabs it's a 1:1 correspondence with indentation level with any visual adjustments done by the editor.
Reading between the lines I suspect you are operating with the flawed idea of using tabs for alignment. One must never use tabs for alignment purposes because they very explicitly do not have a fixed width. (They have a consistent width within a document at any given point in time but it is entirely arbitrary and can change at any time.)
> insure that code that it deems acceptable is not ambiguous to different users ... display of tabs
A compiler never has any control over display. It must ensure no _semantic_ ambiguity. And indeed there isn't any to be found here. Even in python where you can introduce an arbitrary amount of whitespace when going up a level of indentation there is never any semantic ambiguity.
In short you are confused about the division of labor within the stack of abstractions.
> The only important thing here is that the location of the left margin on every line is meaningful, both to the compiler, and to any viewers of your code.
I'd dispute that the compiler needs to care about where your editor places the left margin. However rather than argue about bizarre hypothetical text editors that do unhinged things when displaying whitespace for no apparent reason, I'll instead observe that it seems to follow from what you said that you actually agree with me. As long as the prefix remains consistent across a given level of indentation then there's no cause for concern.