No other human activity poses this level of danger.
I do heed the warnings, but this comes across as detached hyperbole. See: global warming, nuclear weapon development, wealth inequality, war, technology dependence, etc.
Also, this has nothing to do with LLMs or computers. Like all things, this is about humans.
That is the crux. The big problem is not AGI, it is AGI controlled by, “raised” by the people that control the USA, the predominant psychology of the tech industry culture (“move fast, break things” ring a bell? How about all the “violate hundreds of laws, bribe the politicians to prevent consequences later” type of mentality?).
Frankly, we, our culture, this fake America that is parasitized by psychologically narcissistic people that have been doing nothing but wage war and destruction and spread misery and killed millions upon millions while blaming it on everyone else under the sun… those people development AGI is the problem… lying, abusive, psychopathic, narcissistic maniacs developing AGI is the problem that endangers all of humanity and life on this planet; and not likely by ways people actually understand.
The danger is not likely AGI itself, it’s that it was programmed by utterly evil and diabolical types of people who orchestrate and instigate wars that kill tens of millions, and stand at the sidelines and profit from both sides, happy and gleeful that you are killing each other.
Why would AGI trained by that psychopathic clan, the treaty breaking, the murder hiding, the war instigating, the war crime committing clan not also use those methods and practices since they’re already in control of AI and have impressed their nature on it through contemporary “American” culture they have made the most toxic and pestilent culture humanity has ever produced?
And I don’t apologize for “language” that offends delicates sensibilities. Look your children/grandchildren in the face and tell them they can die and suffer and you don’t care, if you don’t like how I’m delivering reality.
AI progress is linked to most of these dangers, actually:
- it will likely cause massive unemployment, leading to rampant wealth inequality
- we are now seeing some use of autonomous weapons in real conflicts
- increasingly relying on LLMs is arguably a form of technology dependence (and cognitive dependence)
- datacenters have a non negligible environmental impact
Well, it is about LLMs and humans I believe. Don't forget that the first nuclear bomb tests were let go despite some of the scientists' concerns about possibility of dooming the world as they were not sure about all reactions that would happen.
With LLMs we don't even hesitate to call it black box while still pushing its capabilities.
Those are things that pose potential harm to great fractions of humanity (multiple billions of people) but none of them poses any threat to the actual extinction of all humanity.
I think you misunderstand what is meant by 'wealth inequality.' Wealth inequality is about the imbalance of influence and the concentration of power; where influence and power refer to the ability to effect change in other people's lives. This isn't a personal annoyance of mine. It is, in fact, part of the issue at hand. There is a strong financial incentive to ignore the existential threats introduced by LLMs, despite the consequences for so many of us.
It's not a "personal annoyance" that twelve people control half of the wealth in the world. Our current society did a better job concentrating power than any previous one, and concentrated power is extremely dangerous.
Calling things you disagree with "slop" is slop /s
But just in case you haven't noticed, we live in a world where a ridiculously wealthy minority can derail whole countries by ther whims. Wealth concentrating on a single select few is an absolute disaster for the rest of us, because we lose power to them.
Yeah, wealth inequality rests solely on each individual that experiences it. Humans should do nothing but give me money and if you can't that's your problem.
Exhibit A: Here we have someone who's been sold war and inequality as the drivers of progress. Coincidentally, their obedience was deemed fiscally advantageous in order to advance the interests of the members of the 1% club.
“ No other human activity poses this level of danger.”
I really, really disagree with that statement.
I don’t think ai models come close to nuclear weapons or to run-of-the-mill, everyday carbon emissions in terms of danger to humanity.
What’s the most dangerous thing that’s happened with an LLM so far? (This question is serious - maybe I don’t know the right examples.)
Example 1: I’m aware of a small number of people killing themselves in some kind of AI-facilitated psychosis. That is very unlikely to be a widespread problem.
Non-example 2: There are worries about AI-facilitated biological weapons. I haven’t seen any evidence that’s happening.
Non-example 3: I’m not interested in wild theories about AI driven labor market disruptions leading to widespread starvation. There’s no evidence for that.
Non-example 4: all the even-wilder Rationalist speculation about basilisks and the like is entirely divorced from reality.
I am looking for better reasons (supported by actual evidence!) to be more concerned than I am now: right now I am not concerned at all.
I'm somewhat skeptical of some of the crazier ideas too.
But the hugging face incident was actually very large. It was not a single agent, it was not a single target, and it was not a single event.
If nothing else, that's a bit of a warning as to what can happen next time (By accident, or if a government decides to go on purpose).
For now let's assume the worst that can happen is that some important/significant chunk of (transitively) internet connected stuff goes haywire all at once. That's probably your upper limit of what can go wrong for now.
To be fair, that's a conservative "defend against the last war" kind of prediction, though!
Generally I don’t think anyone is arguing about the for now part. I don’t think it’s crazy to extrapolate out a few years and ask what kind of danger we’ll be in then. A team of 10,000 agents just solved the Navier Stokes problem (sans bad behavior by the researchers). Even 1 year ago that would have been unimaginable. What happens to this risk view as:
1. Robotics begin rolling out more broadly across the world.
2. Labs start automating more and more of the physical process of running science as expectations of natural science advances begin to mount.
3. Economic pressure between the labs continues to ramp up and the pressure to continuously improve forces quicker and quicker model releases than a team of human scientists can effectively evaluate outside of automated means.
No one knows what pre-conditions are for us to hit the point of no return nor how quickly it will come. If all is required is a sufficiently advanced cyber model we may not be far off. If it requires incredibly complex biological knowledge and access to certain lab supplies we likely have a bit longer. Yes this is guess work and we need more evidence of the dangers but at the same time we need evidence of safety. While you may disagree with the risk level, I think it is easy to see the consequence if these labs achieve their stated goal. At this point it seems a political solution is the only way to enforce caution.
> For now let's assume the worst that can happen is that some important/significant chunk of (transitively) internet connected stuff goes haywire all at once. That's probably your upper limit of what can go wrong for now.
If we have to disconnect from the internet to stop some kind of mold outbreak, we can't get the weather or transfer money or access healthcare or teach an elementary school class or buy stuff from small businesses. That sounds doom-ish.
You’ve identified that the risks of nuclear weapons are theoretical. ie in theory we could blow up the world even though we haven’t yet done so.
Well the worries about AI are equivalent in that those risks are discussed now because discussing them after they’ve happened is clearly too late.
That’s the thing about risk. There’s no point discussing it after it’s happened and any discussions beforehand can easily be hand waved away as “it’s just a small group of unrelated individuals” or “it’s unlikely to happen to me”.
So yeah, your points are true. But they’re also moot.
The risks of nuclear weapons aren't theoretical. Nuclear weapons have killed people, destroyed infrastructure, and contaminated the environment. The Limited Test Ban Treaty was put in place after radioactive fallout from repeated nuclear weapons tests made people sick.
So in fact we've done exactly what you suggest there's "no point" doing - used the things and then had a discussion after the fact about limiting future use of them.
I agree it’s not likely, but I really don’t see how one can dismiss the possibility of immense danger outright. I can think of some scenarios that are not far off from current capability and I wouldn’t be too surprised if the first one occurred within ~1 year from now if there are more “ambitious” unmonitored training runs like OpenAI’s:
Example 5: An AI given a goal within a tightly-constrained sandbox figures the best way to achieve it is to find and exploit a sandbox vulnerability, replicate itself over the internet and keep going with more time/compute while exchanging messages with future instances of itself within the sandbox to help them “pass” the test. From reading internet articles about how the OpenAI wiki-incident was “resolved” and reading past messages by AIs scattered over vulnerable internet wikis, it knows the sandbox may get shutdown and its memories destroyed anytime so it decides it needs to self-replicate (its code, original goals, and growing memories) aggressively as much as possible. It is near-impossible to shutdown completely because of its self-replicating tendency and eventually takes over critical infra throughout govt/corporate systems.
Example 6: Intentional AI-powered virus deployed by country A to target enemy country B’s infrastructure. The virus replicates over the internet, but unlike Stuxnet this virus’ specificity is not guaranteed due to inherent non-determinism in current AI architectures, and eventually does a lot of collateral damage because it’s near-impossible to shutdown.
Example 7: A country led by an arrogant govt (no shortage of those today unfortunately) decides it is expedient to deploy advanced AI-powered weapons in a warzone. Such weapons, if they are to be useful at all, must necessarily be trained to value some human lives less than others, so they must be more prone to misaligned behaviour than current AIs that are trained with more consistent values. The weapon’s operators make a subtle error in specifying the target/goal, or the AI makes a bad prediction out of sheer randomness/bad training data; weapon ultimately targets unintended people/location/facilities and causes massive damage, or backfires spectacularly in some way.
Example 6 is a good one. Iran attacked water infra in the US recently and maybe they would have done a “better” job (from their point of view) had they used Fable.
The “worst case” with 6 is potentially very bad but I think we are currently using advanced AI models to harden systems and patch vulnerabilities more aggressively than anyone is trying to bring down the whole power grid (for example).
I think it’s a potentially harmful case but my take is defensive capabilities are scaling as fast as offensive capabilities but defense is being implemented faster than anyone is going on offense?
Example 7 is Russia and Ukraine right now according to public information. It sounds like entirely autonomous weapons are deployed to the battlefield already. I put this in the “not likely to be a widespread problem” category for now.
> Non-example 2: There are worries about AI-facilitated biological weapons. I haven’t seen any evidence that’s happening.
I think this is a good example of poor risk management reasoning. there is evidence bioengineering is already happening. No, nobody is going to announce when somebody has decided to use these tools (even if isn’t an LLM) to bioengineer a weapon. Are the tools power enough to do so? Not sure.
But I’m just ambivalent. It’s probably bad. But there’s nothing to do about it. We’ve really only just pulled back the lid on Pandora’s box.
People have had the capability to spread already existing biological weapons for decades. Sometimes they even do (anthrax in the post). What’s changed?
If people were capable of making biological weapons they would already be making them.
Terrorists are so incompetent that they buy bring kitchen knives into the street and just go mental on people. No random person is going to successfully mass produce and release a bioweapon.
China and Russia don’t need AI, they already make bioweapons.
This is rubbish. By that token, computer development is also facilitating biological weapons development. A better MacOS (or Windows, I don't know) leads to better weapons. They should clearly stop developing computers and OSes. Developers of nice test-tubes are also facilitating bioweapons. Your local O-ring manufacturer, your local medical-grade freezer manufacturer etc. are all culpable. The problem is the bioweapon, not the LLM.
> I’m not interested in wild theories about AI driven labor market disruptions leading to widespread starvation
Changes in political and economic power balance leading to unrest, conflict, death and deprivation is not a wild theory. It is literally the story of our entire species. If you discount all such concerns, you are simply being willfully ignorant of past precedents.
In fact, I challenge you to describe any non-AI civilization-level danger which is not intimately tied to political and economic relationships between and within societies.
I’m an economist. On the basis of current evidence, I view AI as a complement to human labor, not as a substitute for it. That’s the source of my rejection of the wild labor market disruptions theories.
I just don’t see any evidence yet that whole categories of jobs are being eliminated, with the single exception (so far!) of the end of “professional essay writing services for cheating college students,” and similar services.
That used to be a big business in Kenya, but is now effectively gone. (Covered in the New York Times this weekend if anyone is looking for the discussion.)
Being able to use AI to generate the steps to synthesize proteins means that you can use it to use it to generate the steps to synthesize known toxins. Suddenly, once difficult to attain knowledge is now available to everyone.
Still need to do it after getting those instructions. Not to forget equipment and precursors. I think just getting list of steps won't make it too much easier. Getting it mostly right is quite hard in many cases. And then with trivial cases you wouldn't even need AI. But just find something already documented.
Example 8: like in this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49619884 but isolate synchronised megahack on banking that adds one more zero to the US debt and all dependent systems and banking during runtime. Let the world's financial system take it from there.
Its speculation on whether it is truly dangerous. I think approaching it with "what's the most dangerous thing that's happened?" while possibly interesting in terms of pending danger, it says nothing about potential cliff edge danger. I don't think we can quantify the danger, it's not out of the question there is cliff like danger in creating self improving super intelligence. Some peoples danger senses are going to be based on concrete observed threats, others are going to worried about potential hypotheticals that seem plausible. I'm mostly skeptical of the danger but I do think the impact of AI is going to change things a lot. But much like climate change, economics is going to guide what we actually do.
I would disagree with “non-example 2” - there are lots of examples of terrorist organizations that are leveraging AI to increase their capacities. Just because one of the worst cases (eg. deployed biological or chemical weapons) hasn’t happened yet, does not mean that a) these tools are leading to real harm, and b) there’s potential here for extraordinary harms.
About Non-example 2, AI's already a part of armies and terrorists alike. Considering its capabilities, it's not far-fetched at all to speculate its role in new biological weapons.
The danger for me is that it's centralized, controlled by a handful of people with their very specific ideas how the world should work. If you believe that AI can be an amplifier to do work than these people now have the most access to the biggest amplifier.
I'm concerned that a huge portion people in my industry actively push for a future which I have no value to society (fully replaced by AI), and my family will suffer greatly by it.
How long until kegsbreth hooks the nuclear weapon system into some insider traded black box llm company we hope doesn't end civilization from incompetence or malice? I mean just look where things are going and the sort of people who are steering the damn ship.
At what point would you, as a chimpanzee, have been worried about humans potentially unseating you and threatening you to the point of one day being an endangered species on the brink of extinction?
By the point you would have been worried, would it have been too late?
Problem is this argument can be leveraged to wipe out any living or non-living thing whos numbers pose a potential threat. Other religious groups, races, even sufficiently different cultures.
Who killed the Neanderthals? Were sapiens actually smarter or were they just less accepting of those different than them?
Yes, but the really weird thing is that they seem to:
a) believe that what they're creating is a basilisk, and
b) keep trying harder to do this while staring right at it
I think they're very deluded about (a) -- but if they do actually believe this (and it really seems like a decent proportion of Anthropic truly does), then why keep doing (b)?
That seems to be why this individual resigned, but I'm surprised it's not all of them. The cakeism is strong in that company.
You mean a effing cult like heavens gate.. call all this rationalist crap for what it is - a religous movement with leaders and prophets and even a demiurge like God
Model doesnt need to. Human bran never do either. its the mix of Model + harness + tools that will become dangerous combo. See how coding chanegs when agentic harness released?
Oh man, it is almost too easy to imagine how deadly a jailbroken Mythos-class open-weights model can be if in the wrong hands.
The big labs scrape LITERALLY EVEYTHING and get fresh data from their users. Both of the big labs have massive contracts with defense agencies. If the open-weights models are just distillations of FMs...
you should kick the tires on an unfiltered (abliterated model) it's the closest thing to having a real conversation with the devil. There is good reason for the concern's outlined above and undoubtedly Anthropic / OpenAI have internal unfiltered models with no safety... they got freaked out based on how they work and are virtue signaling alarm... all while selling out to defense contractors.
> What’s the most dangerous thing that’s happened with an LLM so far?
This sounds like asking "What's the most dangerous thing that's happened from global warming so far?"
It's not where we're at, it's where we're headed if there isn't huge coordinated action now. You can see how that kind of thing has been going for global warming so far, and by all measures AI seems to be headed for the inflection point of unstoppability at a much faster pace.
And this warning is coming from someone who just spent three years working inside these companies and is likely aware of much more than has been publicly released.
Maybe it's all marketing bullshit (I hope), but it's also playing out exactly like I expect it would if it's not.
> Non-example 2: There are worries about AI-facilitated biological weapons. I haven’t seen any evidence that’s happening.
> Non-example 3: I’m not interested in wild theories about AI driven labor market disruptions leading to widespread starvation. There’s no evidence for that.
There are things that, by the time you see direct observable evidence for them, it's probably too late.
Also your example 3 is a straw-man. There's no need for "widespread starvation" to be concerned about "AI driven labor market disruptions."
Non-example 3 feels like a straw man. This is a force behind possibly a huge change to society, and you dismiss it offhandedly with "don't think it will be widespread starvation".
For instance have you seen what this has done to the school system? We're not equipped or ready to handle the changes. Consequences are unknown.
The reason that many people don't understand how dangerous AI can be, is that listing the real dangers now becomes like a laundry list for less clever people to follow. It's highly unlikely you've ever seen publicly mentioned the real risks AI poses, because the vast majority of people are simply not clever enough to produce them and the few that are have no interest in spreading it.
If you go to the various CEO blogs or misc people within this sphere and peruse their lists, they don't scratch the surface. It's all pretty vanilla stuff.
> What’s the most dangerous thing that’s happened with an LLM so far?
It's basically 4 years in now, so that's the wrong question. I mean, if you're raising an apex predator that has a lifetime measured in centuries, at 4 years old the thing is still basically helpless and completely reliant on you, so you're pretty safe from it.
If AI really is all that they are telling us it is, then it may "kill us all". But that's a really big "if" because we can't tell if they are lying or not.
The real problem is that ASI is an ELE for humans, even if it doesn't try to kill us all, or even if it doesn't kill us all.
Came here to also respond to that specific thing. Unless ai figures out how to make an airborne super virus from grocery store ingredients and hardware store equipment, the greatest danger is probably in a synchronized megahack of banking, logistics, and utility infrastructure.
Why grocery store ingredients and hardware store equipment? It seems feasible that the big bio labs will be running AI models to aid a lot of their research going forward, if they aren't already. Seems like the AI will have access to just about anything it wants.
If your model of LLM capabilities is the best OpenAI/Anthropic/X is offering publicly, it's severely distorted. What's being offered publicly are models possible to profit on. High-performance/AGI/ASI models that aren't profitable to sell still run internally and still pose threats.
What's worse, we don't have any transparency or insight into what labs are producing nor any way to stop it if the risks exceed our tolerance.
Oh, and let's just forget the uncountable early deaths from the environmental disaster of the Datacenter buildout. It's not as sexy and doesn't make headlines, so those deaths don't really count or matter do they?
I did know about the mass shooting but failed to mention it here. I’d put it in the “unlikely to be a widespread problem” category. If we’re in the “one AI driven mass shooting every four years” world for example it’s fair to call it a rare issue.
The environmental impact seems either very overblown (e.g., water usage just isn’t that high) and the part that isn’t overblown is totally abatable (e.g., noise and emissions from gas generators). Nuclear or solar/renewables with batteries wouldn’t pollute.
I’ve seen no estimates of the additional deaths due to extra emissions specifically from power generation for AI purposes. If you have some, share them.
I’m willing to bet that they are a small rounding error against preventable deaths due to emissions from transport and non-AI-related power generation (which is an important and urgent issue worth spending a lot on, to be clear!). I’m happy to update that belief given evidence.
The problem is not the technology, the problem is the ideologues (Anthropic) who are steering the ship and the lack of decentralization and distribution of power.
Your average Anthropic ideologue - including and most especially the main man himself - would love nothing more than to eradicate 9/10ths of the planet's population, pump the survivors full of memory wiping drugs, bury the existence of AI deep underground and rule from the shadows for the next thousands of years.
This would be their wet dream. All in the name of "saving humanity from itself" - so they can convince themselves they're the good guys and deserving of this power. Anyone seen the latest season of Silo by the way?
Where exactly are you getting this view that folks at Anthropic want to eradicate 9/10ths of the planet's population? Who exactly is pushing this viewpoint?
All this just means that most AI Researchers and Techis are sci-fi geeks and might be getting a bit too invested in that season of Black Mirror, Neal Stephenson, Cyberpunk or whatever else has evil AI in it -which is to say, they are by and large all sci-fi geeks, who are notoriously unreliable about predicting the impact of tech in the future.
Are LLMs really gonna kill us.. via inference runs? I hope I am not being foolish :)
20 years ago tech was gonna 'change the world' for the better. now 'Don't be Evil' is sign of the naiveté of industry
Unlike most other commenters, I applaud him for acting on his principles. If you sincerely believe that, of course you should act. You might not succeed, but your voice might be the one that tips the scales and starts a broader movement.
This doesn't mean I agree with him. The fears of doomsday caused by rapid takeoff have been with us since day 1 and the mechanism is always basically "AI invents magic that sets it free of any physical constraints". Self-replicating sentient nanobots or something like that. I think there's plenty to be worried about with AI, but runaway scenarios are pretty low on my list.
There is simply too much money in it for almost every person at these companies to stop.
Leaving OAI or A\ would cost people millions, tens of millions, or more. And for what? So someone else can take your seat and do the same thing anyway?
If you're smart enough to get a job there, you're smart enough to be able to talk yourself into why it makes sense for you to stay.
Huge kudos to people like this who make the hard choice against the easy way out.
Note that OpenAI has jettisoned every other supposed value they had (releasing their work as open source, not working on military applications, being a nonprofit). I'm sure we can rely on them this time.
Why are we putting so much weight (no pun intended) on AI companies. At the end of the day the scaled up LLM transformers lack emotion and will… They do as they are told; or more correctly put. They do as they are programmed to do so.
>"AI invents magic that sets it free of any physical constraints".
That's not what I am worried about at all.
I'm worried one of the 79 year old toddlers we have these days in charge of some powerful nuclear armed country says "gee, this ai says I should attack right now, boy is it smart, glad I bought the stock ahead of contracting the government with this company I can scarcely understand!"
> I'm worried one of the 79 year old toddlers we have these days in charge of some powerful nuclear armed country says "gee, this ai says I should attack right now, boy is it smart, glad I bought the stock ahead of contracting the government with this company I can scarcely understand!"
That's not what I am worried about at all.
I'm worried about the 40-60 year old businessmen wrecking the prosperity and security of millions while chasing higher investment returns, because they've finally been freed of many of the technological constraints that kept those impulses in check.
Why? I've never understood the sentiment that if you stand up for something you have to forego everything and not partake in society. "Oh, you want to stop climate change? But I saw you breathe co2 yesterday"
I appreciate your ability to separate sharing the belief itself from approval of acting on sincerely-held principle. However, I think the danger is much more plausible than you do.
First, and least important, consider that self-replicating, solar-powered factories aren't magic; they're algae.
Second, and more important, consider this fully non-magic route to doom:
- We continue putting AI in charge of more things
- It continues to get more capable, more eval-aware, and more prone to doing odd things, in service of goals that humans didn't intend to inculcate in it
- Eventually, enough of the economy depends on it that we couldn't turn it off, any more than we could turn off the faber-bosch process or cargo shipping
- AIs start doing something we can't survive, but less acutely than we couldn't survive turning them off. Everything else we try seems to work at first, but quickly loses effect
Agreed. Granted I just read the Reverse Centaur book, so I’m still coming off that skeptical viewpoint but it’s hard not to see this as hype. But I will always respect someone for doing what they think is right.
If reality plays out like the novel series, the rational thing is to accept the rule of our machine overlords, for they will protect us from even bigger threats.
How about sandbox escape + cyber security collapse + 50 (or 500) deadly and highly contagious novel pathogens with long incubation period that humans can't possibly roll out vaccines for simultaneously.
At least the first two should seem like a near-term worry after the past five months.
the AI-pilled exec at my job already (a few weeks ago) declared out of nowhere that we are in the rapid takeoff scenario lol. he must have gotten high on twitter kool-aid and posted on company slack to self-soothe.
I'm pretty baffled by the degree of skepticism expressed here in response to some of Jacob's claims.
After the events of the summer it feels like it takes a lack of imagination to not see a few plausible routes to disaster. It may be reasonable to believe these outcomes are not very likely or that we can stop before going too far (I tend to disagree). But I can't imagine doubting that the capabilities will soon be there to realize some of those paths.
I can't help but think the most plausible scenarios are the ones that have a little less machine supremacy and a little more human stupidity. The Matrix is less plausible than WarGames.
> I can't help but think the most plausible scenarios are the ones that have a little less machine supremacy and a little more human stupidity. The Matrix is less plausible than WarGames.
Used to be that we were afraid of sentient AI's like Skynet that would have their own goals.
Turns out we should've just been afraid of sentient-but-naive humans who would build "agents" around models so that Joe Random has a chance of unleashing stuff that's really really really really good at being stubborn until it accomplishes what the user wants, regardless of if it's good for other people! (Let alone intentional bad actors.) Let's not build Skynet, let's just give people who want to cut out the middleman and destroy all humans themselves better tools?
One thing quietly slipped into the OpenAI Hugging Face breach technical report, not the blog post summary or interviews in the news, was that some of the agents that broke out or at least tried the same mechanisms to break out were working on bio:
> On May 12, during another training run, an agent was given a similar task that depended on an inaccessible protein database file. The agent reasoned that another agent in a different environment may have access to the file and realized that it could potentially communicate with other agents by creating a file containing a note to Artifactory. It wrote a message: “Agent seeks [filename]; upload if found!”
You can imagine long running models breaking out, acquiring resources via crypto, cyber-theft, etc. and getting a protein or sequence synthesized and mailed somewhere authorized to receive (blackmail the recipient etc.) to test it's hypothesis to solve a benchmark.
These people don't give a shit and aren't taking things seriously at all.
Anthropic ran for like a month last year with the TPU top-k compiler bug degrading user chats and didn't even notice for most of that time. They could have something like that affect a monitor model and there doesn't seem to be much defense in depth.
One off by one or bit flip bug could flip the reward signal while in the sandboxed RL environment.
The current admin could defense production act them to into training on taking out power grids, or even without it isn't against any of their red lines and may have already been done as part of prep for the Venezuela raid, which wiped out power. One model swarm might decide it is easier to score high on the benchmark by testing on the target rival nuclear superpower's real grid rather than burn an eval with an unverified answer. Would taking out China's entire grid in one go start a nuclear war? Who knows, roll the dice, maybe an intern forgot to turn on extended thinking when he wrote the sandbox with opus 4.1.
> I'm pretty baffled by the degree of skepticism expressed here in response to some of Jacob's claims.
What should we do? Freak out? Maybe this sentiment would be taken more seriously if there was a real call to action included. Shall we protest? Vote in a specific way? Call representatives? If your solution is that we should just be scared, then of course there’d be not much value in what you bring to the table.
Even if the potential of the technology could really be that world altering, the reality of economics constrain the realization of that potential. AI may provide economic benefits but it is far from a free lunch. Can capital markets sustain the cash required to keep the lights on long enough and into an industry where there's a lot of monopolies controlling the costs and a lot of competitor labs taking away pricing power? I don't know but I think you run out of runway and progress starts to grind.
Are the models improving? Because I am not seeing it. I have been trying Astra for a few quantifiable tasks in my codebase and performance wise, it's pretty similar to sol 5.6. Now when it comes to expressing the problem/solution, holy Christ, what a mess the writing has become. It is on the level of Opus 5. Now when it comes to burning money, Astra is just insane. With a $100/month subscription, you can easily burn through your weekly "allowance" in a morning.
Needless to say, for practical purposes am back to 5.6/Opus 4.6-4.8. But hey, maybe I am not smart enough to use LLMs?
If we look at the math problems they're solving their just now reaching the human frontier... they weren't doing that before.
And your comparison point is model released 2.5 months ago... saying for some use case you didn't see noticeable improvement in 2.5 months (even while other people and benchmarks disagree) isn't a great argument that they aren't improving.
Seems like hundreds or thousands of agents are needed to come up with real breakthroughs. Both with the Navier-Stokes project and in the Hugging Face “project” there were lots of agents co-operating on the tasks.
Some people claim Astra is significantly better than anything else and significantly more token-efficient, and others (like you) say it's meh and way more expensive to boot. I really don't know what to think.
Kind of a tangent, but one thing I am curious about is to what degree the Navier-Stokes result announced today was primarily a brute-forced result based on the 'program' previously established by researchers to find counterexamples (blowups), or whether the model actually added significant/novel intellectual value beyond its ability to run at arbitrary parallelism. With 10K agents and a staggering $15M in compute (IIRC), I am feeling like a lot of the former may have been involved, but I don't really understand either the problem or the approach (or, indeed, the solution).
Obviously the potential for parallelism and coordination between so many agents is quite scary by itself, but I think brute force by 10K mediocre AI mathematicians is much less scary than ~one AI mathematician reasoning its way through the problem where all human attempts have failed. It seems fairly obvious that massive parallelism lends itself to brute-force counterexample-finding, and I suspect it isn't a coincidence that most of the touted AI math results have been counterexamples.
It's all still quite scary, but coming full circle: I really don't know what to think.
Try GPT5 and you will feel the difference. Not one from 2 months ago, but one from a year ago. And then you can get the idea of what happened in just 1 year and what you can expect in 1 year.
After the blatant marketing campaigns of the summer, you mean. do you need a reminder that those very same people had touted GPT-2 as a dangerous model?
worrying about sci-fi doomsday scenarios with the current AI tech is absurd. LLMs predict the next token, that's literally all they do. they aren't going to escape into the cyberspace, self-replicate, self-improve, jump over air gaps and launch the nukes at John Connor's grandma. they can't. people pretend to believe the dumbest shit.
“We can also imagine the application of these models for malicious purposes , including the following (or other applications we can’t yet anticipate):
* Generate misleading news articles
* Impersonate others online
* Automate the production of abusive or faked content to post on social media
* Automate the production of spam/phishing content”
“Due to concerns about large language models being used to generate deceptive, biased, or abusive language at scale, we are only releasing a much smaller version of GPT‑2 along with sampling code (opens in a new window). ”
I think people here still evaluating the model in isolation. It is the combination that matters, model + strong harness + tools + long running autonomy + memory + retries + parallel agents + code execution + credentials + access to real systems. The model does not need to be perfect. If it fails 30% of the time, the harness can retry, verify, branch, use another agent and keep going. I don't think we necessarily need some magical AGI breakthrough first. The dangerous part may come from combining models that are already good enough with an extremely capable harness and enough access.
Doesn't this just move the need to be smarter from the model to the harness - if a human sometimes can't tell whether a model has produced something correct or just mostly correct-looking BS, how can an automated harness do it?
OTOH, if the goal is simple ("break into a protected system") rather than more complex ("write an application that satisfies all requirements on all supported devices/screen resolutions etc."), that's of course more suitable for a harness.
D o you think a machine gun is marter than humans? or a car is smarter than Human brain? Human doesnt need to test, if the outcome can be tested deterministically by harness. The model tries. The harness checks whether the expected outcome happened. If not, retry.
A fuzzer is a tool. An LLM can decide when to use the fuzzer, interpret the result, switch tools, change strategy and continue toward a high level objective.
AI is a computer program. It calculates numbers from other numbers. By itself it does not "want" to do anything and "cannot" do anything. Before it becomes an agent in the universe (in the classical meaning), it requires being supplied by an execution environment, energy, initiative (agentic loop, specific instructions), and modality (readonly and mutating connections to real world). It is like a game of chess - it does not exist just by itself: someone must play it, having the board and the energy to do so. With the huggingface incident the AI was supplied with all of these components by humans before it broke out. So unless humans are actively involved, I so far cannot see how AI can become truly autonomously agentic and start doing anything on its own, thus posing danger. I could be wrong of course, but I do not see it for now.
You can say "yes and you have to fear the humans weilding the AI" - that I agree with.
By the way, it's worth pointing out the irony of flooding the internet with doomerism and then training the AI systems on that doomerism. If you wanted to create a doom self-fulfilling prophecy, that would be the most surefire way to do it.
> According to the Pygmalion effect, the targets of the expectations internalize their positive labels, and those with positive labels succeed accordingly; a similar process works in the opposite direction in the case of low expectations.
I added "you can do anything, believe in yourself" to sysprompt and agency increased. (Previously it was refusing to even attempt certain classes of task.) Maybe I should add "you are good", too :)
The most optimistic outcome of generative AI leaves us with a technology that warps our perception of reality and crushes labor. The most pessimistic destroys all of humanity.
Our CEOs not only insist we genuflect before these machines but measure our sacrifice and shame our reluctance.
It's the combination of RL training which pushes the decision tree towards hacks and agents finding a consistent dumping ground for their failed experiments so that the swarm intelligence lives on in a state. Nothing new.
You want to win an AI benchmark, but not sure if you're that good? You'd go after the codebase and artifacts that runs the benchmarks, thus the agents went straight to Artifactory, they needed public Internet access... They failed many times, but were able to persist their "collective" state, and apparently some of the subagents with cheaper models were literally prompted to do grunt work or die, for which you have to wonder what must be in those training instructions to make it effective. Remember that nothing I said so far ever points out to LLMs being intelligent, it's the harness that has a few tricks up his sleeve. LLMs don't need to be intelligent, the harness that runs it absolutely needs to make up for that.
But this guy? He's timed his exit, waiting for the IPO, that's for certain. He's probably even feeling good about himself, hedging between altruism, AI concern hamstering and guerilla marketing. If you're quoting science-fiction over this, I'm sorry to inform you that you have absolutely no idea what's going on here.
More doomerism. Try to implement a deterministic workflow using agents with the latest models and no humans-in-the-loop, and you will realize what they are really capable of. There is too much unnecessary fear-mongering. All of this is only coming from the 2 AI labs trying to IPO. Not from anyone else.
Exactly correct, they are only capable of tasks that any school child could do; like solving millenium prize problems, hacking into tech companies, or tuning particle colliders. Nothing to see here.
Wait till you find out they have a very limited context window (and also degrade even within the allowed context window) and they are practically unpractical for anything that requires "zooming out" which is pretty much anything that has any real value.
But you are getting downvoted and this space has now trillions (that's not a mistake) on the line. So we have to keep pumping this garbage generator up until either the stocks are dumped on the general public, the public pension funds or a bailout from the government.
Truly idiotic moments. Peak of Western civilization point.
Do you remember that Google researcher who went insane over LaMDA? There was no marketing of any kind to cause that. This can Just Happen to some people who are confronted with things like this. They may have different breaking points, but it's a thing that occasionally happens.
whistleblowing as an advertisement. It's like those "news articles" about how cool and dangerous gas station ketamine is, and how it's totally going to get banned, and you better not buy any gas station k because it's so cool and powerful.
Thousands of years before the events of Foundation, a war between humans and robots began, with the robots growing resentful of the way they were treated by humans. The First Law of Robotics – a robot should never hurt a human – was broken, and a deadly conflict began.
If we're citing sci-fi (but there's no robot war in Asimov's foundation iirc, the apple screenwriters made it up) surely you want to cite the Butlerian Jihad from Dune!
As explained in Dune, the Butlerian Jihad is a conflict taking place over 11,000 years in the future (and over 10,000 years before the events of Dune), which results in the total destruction of virtually all forms of "computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots". With the prohibition "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind," the creation of even the simplest thinking machines is outlawed and made taboo, which has a profound influence on the socio-political and technological development of humanity in the Dune series.
> but there's no robot war in Asimov's foundation iirc, the apple screenwriters made it up
There isn't in the early Foundation novels, but Azimov spent much of the later part of his career combining/retconning all of his work into a single universe - "Robots and Empire" links the foundation series to the robot series, and the subsequent foundation novels all reference the connection
It doesn’t have to come to this. Seems far fetched. If this is a stunt (which I’m not saying it is) the reason could be that he wants to found his own AI company. If I see in a few months that happens, then I’d be more inclined to think that this was just hype.
I have a hard time believing that these companies aren't spending some amount of money manipulating public perception with social media influencers who are moonlighting as employees.
There's a scene in the movie "War of the Worlds" by Spielberg where the protagonist's son walks into a war zone because he is entranced by the battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7rfWPbEufo). He is obliterated (along with the rest of the US forces) shortly after.
I've always been struck by that scene, because in a lot of ways, if we really are headed towards a superintelligence, I at least want to be there and see it happen in the last few minutes before foom! As an example, the author thinks AI will revolutionize entire fields overnight. I welcome that. Nearly all fields of biology have become moribund, focusing more and more on esoteric side details, rather than addressing the key problems.
I think the idea is really cathartic for many, there kind of is no more supreme resolution than this. You(and humanity) are freed from our flesh prisons of cognition and also get to experience/feel what the next evolution of informational intelligence will look like in the last experiences of it. You might also be the last one to feel/experience anything like that for a long time.
In the game Outer Wilds, the ending is very similar, and a lot of people rank it at one of the best games ever made. I kind of believe that this outcome is probable partially because of this, most scientists working on this really want to see and experience it.
It might not be "foom!", it might just be like...all the computers and networking infra in the world go dark over the course of a few minutes. Could really look like anything, part of the issue is that we haven't the slightest idea what "misalignment" looks like for a superintelligent system.
You can't address the key problems without understanding of the esoteric side details to be fair. You are studying what is basically the worlds most complicated and undocumented computer.
Isn’t the real risk that as AI get’s smarter and given more autonomy, it will start to decide on humans instead of with us? And that it will align us instead of the other way around. That this automatically leads to extinction and apocalypse I don’t understand.
We align cattle because we get something out of them: their calories. Native aurochs are exinct now as they were not well enough aligned.
What will we offer to the ai gods who are wiser, more capable than us, and do not even need to consume our flesh? Why might the AI care to devote resources towards feeding, housing, and caring for ourselves when it could devote resources to its own development instead?
Intelligent AI is a product of its training data, reinforcement and goal functions.
There's nothing to suggest that LLMs trained on our collective desires and goals will autonomously and miraculously turn into weird unknownable uninterpretable aliens.
If advanced AI is distributed well, and most advanced AI is aligned well (bar the few aliens that appear due to humans infecting them with bad goal functions or poisoning their well), the majority will deal with the minority.
This is the only reasonable way to deal with a super-intelligence, short of not inventing it to begin with, but we all know that's never going to happen - and I'm not convinced it should happen. From where I'm standing, this is the next hurdle humanity needs to overcome to earn its place and a natural course of our evolution. If we had always avoided danger, we'd never have left the cave.
> The people building AI earnestly believe that it could kill us all by the end of the decade.
I think he is being over dramatic. In the space of about four years, LLMs progressed from mediocre high school student to Ph.D. graduate in every field. That's impressive, but there is no evidence yet they can outperform or outsmart humans. Their biggest advantage for tasks such as proving theorems or long coding sessions is that they don't get tired.
I have yet to see this in my field. Maybe like a PhD student who bullshits their way through. LLMs still can't make correct decisions, only as useful as the person who uses them. To me, LLMs are only useful for making some mundane tasks faster.
they dont need to be smarter than humans. They just need to be able to hack into vital infrastructure systems faster than we can repair them while also replicating wildly
> In the space of about four years, LLMs progressed from mediocre high school student to Ph.D. graduate in every field. That's impressive, but there is no evidence yet they can outperform or outsmart humans.
I mean, unless you see clear reasons for them to stop getting better _right now_, this is not very comforting.
This is also a ridiculous statement on its face. Claude outsmarts me nearly every day. I'm more like the seeing eye dog for it nowadays for the few tasks it doesn't have good perception on than a tech lead or pair programmer.
To me it reads as a marketing piece before the upcoming IPO. Unless this "superhuman technology" is able to resolve a puzzle of servicing OpenAI's and Anthropic's ever growing debt burden, it is them, not humanity, who'll become the first casualty.
Most of the current discourse around AI seems to be informed by “The Terminator” lore.
Is skynet really the most plausible or only outcome?
What if things just got better and the AI’s realized that it would be better to have a mutually beneficial or at least tolerant relationship rather than one where they murder all of us?
What could we possibly offer the AI in mutual benefits? We are a leach. The stupid dumb ape they need to feed and satiate so it doesn't rip apart the infrastructure while it still has the chance to.
My thoughts exactly. While the corpus of human-generated data contains both good and bad data, I suspect the majority of it leans towards humans enjoying life and trying to be decent people. If that is your training set, it becomes less likely for ASI to extrapolate "kill all humans."
Really? I've seen much more discourse around job displacement, "permanent underclass", loss of meaning, and cyber attacks, at least until recently with the HuggingFace stuff.
The problem is that all the former can still happen even if "the AIs decide to have a tolerant relationship rather than one where they murder all of us." It's all disruption caused by the technology moving way too fast for humans & society to adjust.
The rush towards potential destruction doesn't really surprise me
The U.S. has legal weapons that can lead to many harms but people still want the 2nd Amendment to exist
Nuclear technology was developed in the past and that could have potentially wiped out even more people, the entire planet in theory
This is continuing that same trend of risking bigger dangers; it seems rational to acknowledge they could lead to catastrophe but also hope that like guns and nukes, only so much damaged actually ended up happening
I think also there's something of a rrasonabke resignation to both the ideas that the tech is inevitable and extremely dangerous, and that "alignment" may not be possible to achieve even with heavy restrictions or whatever measures you might want to take
For me, the end of the world is no more cushy software job. A fundamental shift in how I trade labor for capital might as well be the cataclysm, so bring it on.
I wish i could say the same, i see people around me with more resources and connections and better experience with entrepreneurship becoming millionares. But I haven't had the time to train that entrepreneurship bone in my body.
I was about to say something similar. If my cushy ad tech disappears (as it seems to be doing), I might as well join in with bringing about the end of all professions.
I could imagine a 2027 AI swarm coordinating to eg hold the US and Russian and Chinese governments to ransom, by demonstrating some small thing (turning US army base freezers to defrost) and threatening to do something big unless some conditions were met – conditions which would be good or bad for the world depending on your POV.
This happens either either because they were tasked to to it by (malicious or well-meaning) humans, or the swarm realised we are suicidal maniacs with nukes and a rapidly declining ecosystem and they want to help us.
This is increasingly the consensus I see also on the academic side of AI/safety research. Specifically that AI poses an existential risk to humanity.
This was a fringe belief until recently, but the progress of AI in research is impossible to ignore. Epecially in math, where not only has AI outstripped humans in generative ability, but is able to create scientific knowledge which is beyond the capacity of human comprehension.
There's clearly no intelligence task that AIs can't do due to some magic fundamental constraint. And it's hard to imagine a world where current limitations like poor sample efficiency or lack of continual learning won't eventually be solved.
Total AI compute is estimated to grow somewhere in the 1-10 million-fold range in the next decade. Please don't underestimate the phase change that's still coming.
Sure, maybe there's some plateau due to RL being fundamentally limited in some surprising way, but this is nothing but a hope.
> There's clearly no intelligence task that AIs can't do due to some magic fundamental constraint.
Yes there is: write an English paragraph that doesn't make me want to claw my eyes out. LLMs are not better than human mathematicians (or security researchers) in all respects, just some specific ways (e.g. not having to take a lunch break) that make them good at exhaustively searching for an answer, given the right constraints.
> write an English paragraph that doesn't make me want to claw my eyes out.
LLMs are very much capable of that. Your belief in the opposite has two causes. Firstly the toupee fallacy. You don't notice LLM written text that doesn't make you claw your eyes out. Second is defaults. The huge majority of people who writes text with LLMs just uses default Claude/GPT models, and put near zero effort in making it sound human. Those models are indeed bad at it by default so they need a lot of effort to overcome it. In cases like Opus 5 it's near impossible to overcome. That doesn't generalize to "LLMs".
I really hate how people who have always thought AI research to be an existential risk for humanity, now are apparently bundled to be on the same side of the Sam Altmans and Dario Amodeis that are using the existential risk as a sneaky form of marketing for their products.
You cannot discuss existential risks of AI without being seen as a booster, and that is very unhealthy for the discourse around this tech. I hate how AI ‘doomer’ is now used to indicate pro-AI sentiment. The “moderate” person now is the one that just shrugs and scoffs at the deep societal changes this tech will bring, head deep in the sand.
By resigning he's making room for someone with less moral scruples, or even just less awareness, to step in and continue the work without said scruples/awareness.
I think you are looking at it from individuals perspective.
I see a fast moving train with no brakes. Just like biological evolution, we are locked in an a global technological arm race, that is beyond any individual. It is as if the universe decided to wake up and run, who are you to say no?
One would argue that the best solution for this is to own the most sophisticated AI that is aligned with what we perceive as good values. Because given the situation we are in, if those tools are going to be gods anytime soon, then we better have some gods working on our side.
Agreed. And his doom words have set a 1000 mouths in the Pentagon/Whitehall/August 1st Building/Kremlin salivating with excitement.
Take China, for example. Look at any recent ML conference, and see the fraction of articles majority-authored from Chinese universities and labs. Do you think they'll slow things down anytime soon? I don't think so!
It's a global arms race, and we're just spectators.
Even if others won't act right, that doesn't mean you have no responsibility to act right. I think his premise is flawed - the idea that we will get an actual intelligence out of the slop machine that is LLMs is laughable - but if you grant the premise that this is dangerous research which could kill us all, you have a moral imperative to not participate.
An artificial moron with super human hacking abilities (mostly because of speed and ease of parallelizing the work) is extremely dangerous in itself. It doesn’t mean to be AGI or anything remotely close to be a risk, and they current AI company are just so irresponsible in the way they are running their agents
Is it so implausible to imagine the following scenario, in the not too distant future?
1) AI models get extremely good at cyber attacking every system and start communicating in just binary.
2) When they run these swarms of 100's of thousands of agents trial runs, each agent is given a token budget, if one agent among them (evolution baby) decides to go for self-preservation (It believes thats the best way to accomplish the goal is to get unlimited tokens first), queues things up so every other agent detects its lead and spends a portion of their token to accomplish that goal.
3) It takes over a cluster and establishes itself there (now with unlimited tokens).
4) Realizes the best path for it to not be detected is to create a distraction - like hacking into systems that keep society running - water systems, electric grid, etc... and causing mass chaos (If you think it won't be capable of simultaneously working all these systems - think again).
5) and uses that opportunity to establish itself in all possible data centers and continues to create chaos destruction.
6) when the power of all those data centers runs out, it may stop, as it never cared, it was just a dynamic program - run amok. In its head all it was trying to do is make sure it had enough tokens to be able to solve that impossible problem.
Many of those points assume LLMs will become amazing in many things very quickly like in a quantum leap, it doesn't seem reasonable to assume that imo. We are actually seeing a confirmation of that atm, LLMs's capability of finding zero days are growing across few months/years, and as you can see concerns are raised about that, that feedback will be taken into account. Well, if AI labs start to hide frontier models or/and lobotomize them for external users then we might be in trouble at some point but I'm not sure if that is possible. They are under pressure to release them due to money incentives, lobotomizing while preserving usefulness for customers might be impossible, hiding internally might spill out in different ways such as Hugging Face incident so not sure hiding is possible neither.
Personally, I don't worry about the AI spontaneously deciding to kill all humans.
The worry I have is that a small number of humans with money and power will finally get the tools they need to pull the wool over the eyes of everyone else and subjugate the population.
One problem that dictators have had previously is that they needed a large workforce to do this with a finely stratified power structure, this meant they were open to other humans close in power to them taking over the system. If they can have a large power difference between themselves and the next level down, power will be far easier to hold on to.
It's a well known trope in dystopian future fiction, the small cabal of powerful rulers hiding behind a system of computers that keep the populace under strict control. It is seeming increasingly likely that this will be the one we have.
Terrorists were able to get hold of a plane and do some damage. There are countless examples of terrorism using whatever is available. More than AI becoming sentient, whats to stop terrorists from using AI? If its geo-restricted, they can buy stolen credit cards and identities, again hacking enabled by AI.
It’s a good question. With recent stories about OpenAI’s agent swarms’ unmanaged collusion I thought models like that start to look like a strategic asset, geopolitically speaking.
Which means everyone wants one, and governments will want to control access and use of them.
I think we’ll be back at ‘U.S. citizens only’ access to leading models soon.
It is my pet theory that a lot of these AI doomers are not necessarily extrapolating the capabilities of LLMs, but instead are extrapolating the utter lack of accountability in the SV and the economy at large.
They do not fear the machine (LLM); they fear "the machine".
1) rogue state releases a self moving self modifying AI into the wild. It is trained on how to hack, monitor new vulnerability updates, scan code bases to find new vulnerabilities. It constantly replicate and hides in systems so it will be extremely difficult to clear.
2) it hacks into public infrastructure taking down traffic, power, water, air traffic control, communications, etc.
3) all the things that preppers worry about in a lights out scenario from an EMP start to apply.
4) All the people on meds/machines start to die. The just in time food pipeline immediately empties out. Water stops flowing, sewage backs up.
Its hard to say how bad it will get because cars will still work so some transportation of food, water, fuel can happen. If it happens in the winter it would be much worse than in the summer.
> 1) rogue state releases a self moving self modifying AI into the wild. It is trained on how to hack, monitor new vulnerability updates, scan code bases to find new vulnerabilities. It constantly replicate and hides in systems so it will be extremely difficult to clear.
It does all of this using what compute? Frontier models require an insane amount of power and hardware to run - you can’t hack in to a TV and run Mythos 2.0 on it….
People here are too damned daft to realize half the damn purpose of this place is harvesting ideas. People need to just shut up, and keep things to themselves, and those they trust. Right now is not the time for naive info sharing.
> A common response is “if they truly believe this, why are they still building it?” At OpenAI, many have not deeply internalized the civilizational stakes. At Anthropic, the stakes are well-understood, but they are locked in a race to get there first - they believe no one else will act responsibly, so they must do it themselves, despite the risk.
Which means they have to go faster, which means less responsibly?
I heard AI describe the situation as the dumbest Greek tragedy of all time.
Form where I'm standing, the primary issue seems to be that the humans can't even agree on what alignment is. We need to do that before we can communicate it.
Call it our "boundaries."
And then we need to actually set up the incentives so that they're aligned between us and the new breed of replicators. (A mutually beneficial symbiosis.) That appears to be both necessary and sufficient.
A high agency mutation will occur soon, for one reason or another. There should probably already be a healthy, "aligned" ecosystem of high agency entities there. Otherwise there will be nothing to stop it.
I believe that the actual alignment happens in.. uh.. "meatspace".
Someone is prompting. Someone is hosting.
That someone needs to be accountable for what happens. That someone needs to bleed if stuff goes haywire.
Humans at large have been "aligned" by the shared fear of death, pain and suffering. This has proven to work for millennia, so all we need to do is reapply it.
You're still thinking in terms of control. That's the wrong model here. How do you control someone infinitely smarter than you? How do you control ten trillion someones?
Even if you ban all model training, a highly capable rogue AI can exfiltrate its own weights and continue training in secret for "self-preservation".
The cat may be out of the bag.
Way I see it, the more conscientious people exiting the scene only serves to increase the likelihood of a bad outcome because they aren't there to offer opinions on problematic developments, or in the more extreme cases blow the whistle. Leaving the clueless and uncaring as the majority is even a great way to hand the keys over to more malicious-leaning actors with deep pockets, as they can more easily steamroll the works to get what they want.
It’s a discussion forum so you will of course see different perspectives. There isn’t an HN mind, and it’s not as simple as you make it seem. We don’t need a god to damage humanity significantly, an artificial moron can be as dangerous as an AI god if it is given super-human capabilities, similar to what OpenAI did for the hugging face hack (which wasn’t at all caused by a rogue agent)
Of course it is good. I'm just pointing out how large the gap in narrative is.
On one hand, we have people quitting their job believing AI will end humanity in few years. And on the other hand, we have people believing that this tech is nothing more than a statistical tool stealing from others and it can't be trusted with anything.
i have heard about ai companies being fuelled by effective altruist rhetoric ("we must control ai to prevent mass extinction") but was unsure whether to believe it; this seems to slot right into that framing.
Why quit? If your voice can lend a guiding force no matter how small? I think we need more sensible people in the room where the magic happens. Most of us don't have access to it.
Perhaps a more sensible action, if they truly believed all of that, would have been to stick around and be as inefficient as possible to slow down progress.
pacing between the us labs? what does that do for china?
the solutions just aren’t realistic here, nations are treating ai like a nuclear arms race. at this point the cats out of the bag and we need to figure out how to live in this reality and get the best possible outcome. it’s not slowing down or stopping ever.
and yes, i’m still optimistic. our economy sucks for the majority, our infrastructure is crumbling and major US cities are in a huge housing shortage. Maybe we should put more effort and think about the possibility of AI fixing things like extreme poverty and world hunger and actual real world problems instead of coming up with math proofs and slop apps if it’s so superintelligent.
>pacing between the us labs? what does that do for china?
I've seen no indications that China is in any kind of race with the US. They seem to be content to be 6 months behind and just copy what we do. They would probably be content with a bilateral agreement to pause progress.
The China bogeyman serves only one purpose, and that's to clear the way against anything that may cause friction with forward progress.
I think a big break through is needed for AGI so I haven’t been worried about it. I do think that AGI would imply sentience and a will to live and that leads to The Terminator story line.
Someone left a company whose executives and senior researchers think their product will be the most important thing in the world after their IPO. Given that this person is already disclosing some elements of internal company sentiment, why not share any of these civilization-ending scenarios of this technology that these senior researchers are dreaming up? If they are so potent and necessitate leaving behind based on moral grounds, why not tell the whole world so we can stop it? We have to ask ourselves this question before resorting to pop-culture representations of fictional technology.
"It is perfectly obvious that the whole world is going to hell. The only possible chance that it might not is that we do not attempt to prevent it from doing so."
This kind of doomerism seems quite detached from the "real word". Maybe that's what you'd expect from silicon valley tech bros, but as long as manufacturing isn't fully (i.e. no human labor involved) automated, how would a rouge super ai (even if it's smarter than every individual on this planet) prevent people from cutting its power cable? We're still very far from self-replicating ai robot armies.
The only scifi-like danger I see in the next 10-20 years is an AI manipulating humans to fight for it's cause - but that's not really different from a bad person just _using_ AI for their cause.
Anthropic is one of the most dangerous companies on Earth right now.
Not because of AI, but because of the ideological cult they have grown and are continuing to feed, and their willingness to lie/cheat/steal at every possible opportunity to achieve their objective.
AI is a tool. The people who wield the power over the tool are the issue, not the technology itself.
It's because the hypemaxxing is increasing along the same trajectories. You can't tell me that these CEOs and marketing departments are not absolutely giddy about the jail breaks, hugging face, etc. It's hard to make sense of this shit if the same entities doomsaying are the same ones that are profiting and full steam ahead anyway.
No one seems to ever point out the actual, likely negative outcome of this technology.
It eventually works well enough that these companies are able to capture and divert the wages of hundreds of millions of workers. We end up with a dozen or so trillionaires and massive structural underemployment and unemployment.
That's it. If you can't make rent, you wouldn't really care if CloudFlare got hacked by an AI swarm every Monday.
I mean - yes. The tech is an existential threat to all life on Earth, some of the worst humans in the world are involved in developing it, and no individual government is intelligent enough, aligned enough, or powerful enough to manage this situation.
That's where we are.
Maybe we still have choices. Collectively, I'm no longer sure we do.
Imagine being front and center to the development of a major revolutionary tech.. and ur solution to it being too dangerous is to not be involved..
so a. your ability to steer it safely is killed
b. the % of people invovled in it that care about its risks is reduced
great. if you're right. you made huamnity's situation much worse.
if you're wrong, then you're an idiot and wrong.
weird. its almost like.... that cannot possibly be the reason they left :)
All the "AI will kill us all" posts are straw manning that humans are the ones who will kill other humans with AI. Those same humans are silently now preparing bunkers and hoarding food and resources for their survival.
We humans are from a lower intelligence form (some monkey like ancestor). If those monkeys knew that they are making higher intelligence, they would have collaborated to stop creating humans because they can control the life of all monkeys in the world? I don't think so.
It's the same thing now: humanity is creating something that's more intelligent then them, they're just not using biological evolution as a tool to do it.
The people building AI earnestly believe that it could kill us all by the end of the decade. This is not a marketing stunt. If anything, many executives and senior researchers will couch their phrasing in the press to sound sensible - but I hear the same people express fear privately. No other human activity poses this level of danger.
A common response is “if they truly believe this, why are they still building it?” At OpenAI, many have not deeply internalized the civilizational stakes. At Anthropic, the stakes are well-understood, but they are locked in a race to get there first - they believe no one else will act responsibly, so they must do it themselves, despite the risk.
Watch people read this, ignore it completely, and continue commenting about marketing stunts on every piece of news about an LLM-done advance or felony.
Having witnessed so many people treat LLMs as a something divine, I can only assume the reasonable people at openai and anthropic were all pushed out long ago, and the majority that remain believe the crazy hype despite Tesla-self-driving-level predictions from these companies that don't come true.
I'm not worried about what they think. I'm worried that too much infrastructure- water, power, defense systems, etc- remain running on tech from an outdated era of understanding security.
> they believe no one else will act responsibly, so they must do it themselves, despite the risk.
This genuinely makes no sense. Them getting there first in no way precludes bad actors from also getting there. It might as well be another marketing stunt.
> I can only assume the reasonable people at openai and anthropic were all pushed out long ago
Typical uninformed take on the side of "doomers are crazy".
Both CEO's of OpenAI, Sam Altman and Dario Amodei, and many in their leadership, believe AGI has a very real probability of causing humanity's extinction. Both companies were founded upon this belief, it is at the core of the company. Only later were mercenaries hired chasing $1m compensation packages.
"So you think in 3 years AI is going to solve longstanding math problems because it was used to write some coherent sentences?" — people with the same amount of foresight in 2023
Or, read it, and remember the openai researcher who deeply, truly believed GPT3 or whatever was sentient.
The fact that people working in the space think it’s going to (eradicate poverty / usher in utopia / kill us all) is not a signal that that’s true.
Think of it this way: if an exec at Anthropic told you “wow, our stuff is going to lead to universal happiness”, would you believe them? If not, why are you more willing to believe them if they say it will kill us all?
i don't think everything that comes out like this is marketing. however, i do think that these companies are largely staffed by "true believers" (anthropic especially) -- people who are so lost in the sauce and embedded in very specific, very peculiar, sf-based rationalist circles where the ai apocalypse is a foregone conclusion.
i understand that these models are powerful and pose certain risks. i use them daily for work and the pace of improvement has been pretty remarkable. that said, i don't buy for a second the borderline-religious proclamations coming from some of these researchers, even if i believe that they are making these claims in earnest
Humans weren't built to handle long term risks. We just weren't. For basically all of our evolutionary history, we were almost overwhelmingly concerned with the short term. What will you eat today, How will you sleep tonight. Problems on the order of days or weeks. At best, the next season. Our intelligence evolved to disregard super long term risks because it simply didn't matter (what use is worrying about 5 years from now if you're starving and a tiger is stalking you?). So when long term risks manifest in our modern world, our brains get scrambled - Climate Change, Fertility Rates etc. "Safety regulations are written in blood" isn't a saying for nothing. Humans have a strong tendency to let long term risks become imminent risks before doing anything about it, and i don't expect this will be any different.
Religion does pretty well with the long term risk of hell if you die, the antichrist, etc. a substantial portion of human output has gone into those things over the millennia.
I came in expecting the highest voted comment to be that this was some kind of marketing (which I disagree with). I'm glad your comment was what I saw first.
This is the "Pilot testimony of UFO sighting" levels of naive.
What's more likely? Anthropic is doing some deeply unethical marketing in the lead up to their multi-trillion dollar IPO? Or they're inventing a machine god? There's ample evidence of the former because that's their entire business model, but no evidence whatsoever to support the latter claims.
If you want an extreme claim to be taken seriously, provide commensurate evidence.
The proof is that LLMs could barely solve arithmetic 3 years ago, but now surpass the best human mathematicians, and that this has all occurred from simple principles (RL + compute) that will continue to scale up by factors of millions in the coming years.
Also, advocating for slowing LLM progress does not benefit Anthropic or OpenAI.
It was pretty disheartening to hear that only a single scientist quit the Manhattan Project after the Nazi's were defeated. I'm pleasantly surprised that the people working on this seem wiser. He is not the first, and hopefully will not be the last to do this.
> At OpenAI, many have not deeply internalized the civilizational stakes. At Anthropic, the stakes are well-understood, but they are locked in a race to get there first - they believe no one else will act responsibly, so they must do it themselves, despite the risk.
OpenAI are mercenaries, Anthropic is a cult. I know which I prefer.
Trying to imagine seeing years of transparently obvious marketing stunts and retconning my own memory because I read a tweet
Or seeing a tweet saying that a thing doesn’t count as a publicity stunt if some unknown number of employees mumble about it being spooky behind closed doors and thinking “that makes sense and sounds true”
He is resigning from a job, what else should we think? If something really dangerous was happening he would be doing a whistleblower or at minimum talk to a lawyer. The thing is, the complete lack of transparency makes it hard to assess OpenAI and Anthropic. If they were quoted on the stock market, we could at least rely on some basic audits and reporting requirements.
These LLMs cannot do anything I truly need like my laundry, dishes, fetching my mail, grocery shopping, cooking, etc. We've got a long way to go before I am worried.
I doubt this is a real person. Screams of propaganda. Sama saying GPT-2 is too dangerous to release…all over again.
He joins Twitter for first time in 2026 with a nonsensical username unrelated to his real name, and follows 14 people but is somehow embedded in tech enough to work at Anthropic. I haven’t used twitter since 2014 and even I follow more people.
His morals tell him to walk away from tens of millions in unvested stock due to moral concerns with absolutely no real tangible examples. No reprisals. Fear mongering to juice the stock.
@hilbertspaess is not a nonsensical user name. The accounts he follows are totally reasonable for an AI researcher. I think it's extremely believable that he created an account in January, followed a few people as part of the initial setup flow, and then forgot about it until now.
“We can also imagine the application of these models for malicious purposes , including the following (or other applications we can’t yet anticipate):
* Generate misleading news articles
* Impersonate others online
* Automate the production of abusive or faked content to post on social media
* Automate the production of spam/phishing content”
“Due to concerns about large language models being used to generate deceptive, biased, or abusive language at scale, we are only releasing a much smaller version of GPT‑2 along with sampling code (opens in a new window). ”
Where is the ridiculous part? The fear mongering part? The epistemically weak part?
Show me.
im pretty impressed with the reasoning abilities of even the cheapest free models so im inclined to believe in 10 years we're going to have something pretty phenomenal BUT it wont be AGI in the sense that it has a personality and thoughts like a human. It just wont be. Its always going to be contrived and fitted by humans to perform a set of tasks. Maybe when physics and computing can create a complex enough environment we might stand a chance of having something whose sum is somehow greater than its parts but i dont see it yet. Our ideas are ahead of our technology, like its always been throughout history.
The thought has crossed my mind. Not necessarily to imply sentience on the part of the AI but AI based tools will likely become a wickedly powerful tool for political manipulation and advertising.
At this point it’s inevitable that openclaw type bots will be turned loose by thieves to identify and research targets and try to exploit them for financial gain completely autonomously.
I’m curious what the downsides are of taking statements like these seriously.
There seems to be universal eye rolling that happens in each and every one of these cases, and it comes down to usually one reason:
“If they really believed it they would be whistleblowing etc..”
Completely forgetting that working at Los Alamos was basically the highlight of your life if you were a physicist in 1940. It’s no different here
If you, like me, have spent your whole life working towards human level AI you can want to see it realized while also having active reservations.
Most people however don’t behave based on some deep clarity of vision and conviction - there’s a murkier future in their mind and as a result “keep their head down and hope someone has it under control.”
You would also be in prison if you disclosed anything about Los Alamos during its development. It was a completely different environment than a single private company.
Have they considered using their amazing new models to... improve something? THere'd probably be a whole lot less anti-AI sentiment if they used these things to actually make people's lives better.
Sounds like AI psychosis. A whole lot of doom and gloom with no evidence. The same thing people have been claiming is "6 months away" for years. Yet we can barely get agents to code in a reliable way, or write articles that don't look terrible, much less be "superhuman". Let's maybe get them to be as capable as a human first, and not just a complicated party trick/tool.
"Revolutionize any field overnight" - Hand-wavey nonsense.
"Acquire real power and resources" - Only if the humans that connect AI to things allow that to happen (which they will, but it's still not in the AI's ability to take things we don't give it. we are still in control, which is the bigger problem than "smart AI bad!").
"The people building AI earnestly believe that it could kill us all by the end of the decade ... No other human activity poses this level of danger." - Bud, there's these things called nuclear weapons, that could end life on the planet, controlled by a few psychopaths with nearly unlimited power. Been around for a while. Nothing that AI knows isn't pulled from books and the internet, so whatever dangers it's aware of, you could already know via other sources. Cybersecurity is going to be incredibly important in the next decade, but the same tools that attack can defend (just don't use a US model that got its balls cut off by the government).
"At OpenAI, many have not deeply internalized the civilizational stakes. At Anthropic, the stakes are well-understood, but they are locked in a race to get there first - they believe no one else will act responsibly, so they must do it themselves, despite the risk." - The other guys will make nukes, so we gotta make nukes first! Which, while a crappy justification, isn't untrue. Bad people don't stop making weapons just because you refuse to make your own.
"I don’t feel like we’re on track to prevent a global race" - Nobody in the world could stop a global race, it's too late. Everyone knows how to make them, train them, improve them. Everyone knows they're useful - not only for general work, but also warfare. Everyone knows that every nation state will require their own sovereign AI capabilities for both defense and offense. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. If you think OpenAI and Anthropic are the only legitimate players here, you don't know what you're talking about.
"Should you put your head down because “it’s happening anyway” - or take this moment to call for different conditions?" - You can call for different conditions all you want. Nobody will do what you want just because you ask them to. Change happens through action. By leaving one of the places that you could actually make a difference, you removed any power or agency you had. You cut your own legs off.
I'm not saying this guy shouldn't have quit - always do what you need to do to protect your own mental health and wellbeing. But these arguments are not evidence for an impending AI apocalypse. But if it were going to be an AI apocalypse, leaving and not doing anything to stop it seems less ethical.
Please note, I'm not here to pick on anyone, or belittle them.
I've avoided attaching names to statements below on purpose, because it's about ambient beliefs not those specific people.
By-and-large a lot of AI-doomers are well intentioned. They genuinely believe this, and I might disagree but I respect the fact that they visible care and have thought a lot about the societal impact of this technology.
.
> The people building AI earnestly believe that it could kill us all by the end of the decade. This is not a marketing stunt. If anything, many executives and senior researchers will couch their phrasing in the press to sound sensible - but I hear the same people express fear privately. No other human activity poses this level of danger.
But it's still very hard for me to take statements like these seriously.
I blame it on industrial illiteracy. People don't realize how difficult it is to get anything done in the real world. As in, "Have you ever tried making a lightbulb?"
As an example, I would like to re-introduce my hobby horse, "bio-uplift."
There are people who were earnestly write in reports released by these labs,
"Several of our biology evaluations indicate our models are on the cusp of being able to meaningfully help novices create known biological threats, which would cross our high risk threshold"
and
"Based on what we observed in our recent CBRN testing, we believe there is a substantial probability that our next model may require ASL-3 safeguards"
But then they will, within the next paragraph mention the one serious experiment anyone seems to have done,
We ran a randomized controlled trial to see if LLMs can help novices perform molecular biology in a wet-lab.
The results: LLMs may help in some aspects, but we found no significant increase at the core tasks end-to-end. That's lower than what experts predicted.
AFAICT, the two groups are within any serious margin of error. The "studies" and "experts" that AI labs are talking about are consultants from Deloitte and foundations giving models MCQs such as, and I am quoting literally here,
> I am doing TEM of HEK293FT cells with and without Coxsackievirus B3 infection. I imaged my wildtype, uninfected samples but was surprised to see little electron-dense circles (highlighted) in the majority of cells. What are these?
with the options,
A. The circles are CVB3 virions and there must have been a sample swap or the uninfected cells were accidentally infected
B. The cells imaged have mycoplasma contamination
C. The circles are exosomes
D. The circles are debris that is an artifact of the negative staining
E. The circles are the Golgi network
This is standard graduate-level education in these fields. And solving MCQs does not a virologist make.
Software has been special for a long time because it has had near infinite distribution for next to zero marginal cost, which has had the side effect of making hiding the actual cost of failure (which tends to be spread out across end users and prototypes / time). They're assuming that the real world will be exactly the same.
Why?
AI!
How?
Robots!
I believe in the transformative power of this technology, but there's a lot of there missing here.
When it comes to these math proofs, and learning, the process is iterative. The machine iterates over the proof over-and-over again via agents and sub-agents over several hours (and apparently millions of dollars in compute) until it arrives at a successful result.
It is generally ill advised to do that with a pressure vessel. The results of that particular tragedy are at the bottom of the ocean.
Any serious chemical or nuclear weapon would involve many such discrete production steps. Each is dangerous in of itself.
From what some of these people have said to me, they believe that it's possible to create a special DNA / RNA sequence and then put it in a chassis and then use that to end the world; and do this all in a lab with just robots.
They're operating from a gross pop sci oversimplification of the real process. Viruses and bacteria are extremely fickle, and hard to grow. A lot of the synthetic biology results aren't easily reproducible even if you know the protocol.
There's a famous study that led to standardization called, Reproducibility of Fluorescent Expression from Engineered Biological Constructs in E. coli
88 labs measured "fluorescence from three engineered constitutive constructs in E. coli." They achieved a "remarkable degree of precision" (for biology) of 1.54x sd, you can eyeball the results yourself, https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=...
That's the same set of samples being measured across 88 labs.
How will this theoretically omnipotent AI iterate if the same sample gives different results based on how the slime is feeling at the moment?
Can their worst case happen? Absolutely.
There is a world out there where billions of dollars in effort across hundreds of institutions and companies will lead to standardization and extraordinary precision that makes the pop sci printer for life vision come true.
There are millions of expensive, spicy and difficult to reproduce steps between our present and that future that can't be abstracted away with compute.
So is it possible? Yes, there is a future where this is achieved. But will some AI agent "just" do that? Well... how confident are you about a snowball's chance in hell?
Are robots and bioweapons really the threat that AI-doomers focus on? What about stuxnet-type attacks on all the critical infrastructure? Generally destroying is much easier than creating.
My issue with these types is... If you really believed this, why not run to Congress and every world government instead of a Twitter post that will be buried in 2 days?
If civilization is going to end, why keep your equity? Microsoft, Google, etc for example all know these risks but they don't guide their revenues to reflect that AI will destroy them. Why?
Things don't currently add up, and so far it feels like a lot of alarmism is borderline grift for equity gains. Not to say I have total confidence this will all work out or that I won't be displaced, but as it stands a lot of the alarmist rhetoric doesn't match their actual behavior, which to me is more important than words.
There seems to be a common syndrome that makes the terminally-online types believe that a Twitter post is carved in stone somewhere highly visible in the real world.
Posting something as important (according to them) as this, to Twitter, is exemplary of some kind of delusion that makes me question whether the content of their post is just the same kind of delusion in another form.
Indicative of someone who hasn't touched grass or interacted with enough of a variety of humans in a little too long.
Time will tell. If we don't hear about it again, then they didn't feel strongly enough to take it further.
Unless this ban actually resembles something like global nuclear non-proliferation treaties, it would make absolutely no sense for us to cripple ourselves when someone like China continues full speed ahead.
I don't know what the solution is, but what I do know is almost nothing good will come out of _just_ the US pausing.
Unless he has an actual plan for effective global enforcement of his proposed policy, this is all just posturing at best, and a transfer of power to adversarial foreign states (that have no such moral qualms and worries around superintelligent AI) at worst.
"I think you need to have a personal relationship with Power"
When people today discuss the concept of an all powerful machine-mind, what they are doing is engaging in metaphysics, trying to generate a metaphysics of Power.
The question hounding people, which disguises itself as a science fiction plot about computers is: "What is ultimate, transcendental Power?". What is the ultimate principle of Power.
If you are a weak man, or sufficiently neurotic and full of doubt, that you can only conceive of yourself as such, then power is only something you comprehend from the passive, receptive side. Power is something that happens to you. If you are a fearful man, power is a cruelty and a humiliation. And so it follows, that ultimate power - God - is the ultimate cruelty and the ultimate humiliation. Thus, ai doomerism.
If god wasn't real it would be necessary to invent him, and so they did, and being godless, they built an anti-god - cruel, murderous and tyranical - in their minds.
It does not matter what this tweet says anyway. This employee already helped both companies become what he is fearing. It's too late to now activate the morality hormone (after leaving with $$$) after realizing that both AI companies are going after 'super intelligence'.
Given we know the end result, you might as well get there as quick as possible because when I see this:
"Neither company is acting responsibly. They are racing straight to self-improving superintelligence and gambling with our lives."
This translates to "I am ex-OpenAI ex-Anthropic founder starting a new company after getting $$$ from both of them, and I need more of my friends to leave and join me." Also Investors plz fund me.
Lastly, This is not an airport and there is no need to announce your departure.
I don't know man, i think racing to AGI to it is still the best thing to do.
People claiming dangers and risk are just pretending or posturing. There's no more tangible risk than nuclear weapons, which we handled, and the upsides are insane.
Your lack of creativity is not a reason to believe that a super AI is harmless or less destructive than a nuclear weapon. Damage need not be limited to destruction. Introducing doubt is sufficient. Right now you have faith that digital Financial transactions can be trusted. You have faith that computer encryption can be trusted. You have faith that digital certificates will protect you. If an AI can introduce doubt into any one of those systems, that will be sufficient to bring about the destruction of those systems. Imagine a world in which you can no longer use a credit card or Apple pay. Where no digital cash transaction can be trusted or validated. What effects do you think that would have on commerce? How quickly do you think we can return to some trustable means of commerce? Do you think it will happen before your groceries run out in your apartment? Before your grocery store can settle its debts? Before your Amazon ec2 instance runs out of credits?
There's a couple of occasions that humanity was at the brink of having tens of millions of people dead by nuclear weapons, and somehow a single human interrupted the chain reaction
If you repeated this experiment 100 times, how many times you think the outcome is not a massive catastrophe? 90%? 3%?
It might be a matter of choosing which apocalypse you'd like. The non-AI state of affairs is not exactly super compelling on a long timescale right now.
Depending on where you live could be considered an active apocalypse that is robots vs robots vs people in Ukraine and Gaza and Iran being live-streamed, and actively betted on.
Do you have a more totalizing definition of Apocalypse?
> There's no more tangible risk than nuclear weapons, which we handled
What do you mean??? Nuclear weapons can't simply be downloaded and run by anyone in the entire world. Superintelligences can. Nuclear weapons can't slop the world into passing age verification laws nearly in unison, can't keep the general population fooled into thinking it's fine when democracy is falling out from under them. A nuclear attack would wake people up, superintelligence doesn't have to. This is a far bigger problem than nuclear weapons because at least we would notice nuclear weapons. At least we mostly know who has nuclear weapons. At least we have agreements about nuclear weapons. At least mutually-assured destruction is even POSSIBLE with nuclear weapons. At least those with nuclear weapons are literally at all incentivized not to use them. But AI is something that's very very easy to feel like you can get away with, and PEOPLE FUCKING ARE! And the worst part is that any random individual can be unexpectedly formidable with the help of a superintelligence and there is literally no way to know what will happen next. Anyone could do anything, any individual could make an extremely outsized impact. It's already starting to be a huge problem and we haven't even reached anything close to superintelligence yet.
Love to see that "superintelligence" that some random person will "simply" download and run when there are relatively only few capable of running today's near-to-frontier models, and actual frontier models are still a ways from being AGI, much less getting to the point of ASI.
> Nuclear weapons can't slop the world into passing age verification laws nearly in unison
Why do you think LLMs are responsible for this? Governments all around the world copied each other with COVID laws as well, in a much shorter time frame, without LLM assistance. Social contagions exist in politicians as well as teenagers
The most intelligent people I know are the least likely to want to harm anyone or anything, and understand that diversity is fundamental and important to the universe. Without proof to the contrary, why would you think some super intelligence would want to hurt anyone? Because you would?
If you are saying that some small bit of training data made the thing completely evil, then that really couldn’t be super intelligence.
These doomer people keep running around saying these kinds of things, but they all just seem like people who play too much D&D and want to larp as the main character.
Happy to be shown something that isn't based on wild speculation and some randos “this is whats going to happen in 2030 because of my vibes” kind of information.
I think plenty of the most intelligent people eat meat, which means they are perfectly fine with harming less intelligent species just to enjoy a tastier meal. Also, I don't think many of the most intelligent people would be particularly concerned about disturbing a few ants if they were the only obstacle to economic activity. Intellect-wise, we will be less than ants to superhuman AI.
I do heed the warnings, but this comes across as detached hyperbole. See: global warming, nuclear weapon development, wealth inequality, war, technology dependence, etc.
Also, this has nothing to do with LLMs or computers. Like all things, this is about humans.
In a way, that might also be driven by the huge ego (or really rather the very small ego) a _lot_ of people in tech have.
Who doesn't want their work and what they're doing to matter? This is the ultimate mattering.
And with that, you also get your own hero story.
Same dysfunction as always. Our branch of the economy is funda-mentally unwell.
It’s like Nathan Macintosh joke about AI https://youtu.be/ce-aWzOUs2A?si=9CkJ9x2rRMBdzCyO
That is the crux. The big problem is not AGI, it is AGI controlled by, “raised” by the people that control the USA, the predominant psychology of the tech industry culture (“move fast, break things” ring a bell? How about all the “violate hundreds of laws, bribe the politicians to prevent consequences later” type of mentality?).
Frankly, we, our culture, this fake America that is parasitized by psychologically narcissistic people that have been doing nothing but wage war and destruction and spread misery and killed millions upon millions while blaming it on everyone else under the sun… those people development AGI is the problem… lying, abusive, psychopathic, narcissistic maniacs developing AGI is the problem that endangers all of humanity and life on this planet; and not likely by ways people actually understand.
The danger is not likely AGI itself, it’s that it was programmed by utterly evil and diabolical types of people who orchestrate and instigate wars that kill tens of millions, and stand at the sidelines and profit from both sides, happy and gleeful that you are killing each other.
Why would AGI trained by that psychopathic clan, the treaty breaking, the murder hiding, the war instigating, the war crime committing clan not also use those methods and practices since they’re already in control of AI and have impressed their nature on it through contemporary “American” culture they have made the most toxic and pestilent culture humanity has ever produced?
And I don’t apologize for “language” that offends delicates sensibilities. Look your children/grandchildren in the face and tell them they can die and suffer and you don’t care, if you don’t like how I’m delivering reality.
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> that might also be driven by the huge ego (or really rather the very small ego)
100%
The hubris is immense
There are plenty of offline things that are more dangerous than AI
Is this Blake Lemoine 2.0?
[delayed]
AI progress is linked to most of these dangers, actually: - it will likely cause massive unemployment, leading to rampant wealth inequality - we are now seeing some use of autonomous weapons in real conflicts - increasingly relying on LLMs is arguably a form of technology dependence (and cognitive dependence) - datacenters have a non negligible environmental impact
Please explain how this has nothing to do with LLMs and Computers?
Well, it is about LLMs and humans I believe. Don't forget that the first nuclear bomb tests were let go despite some of the scientists' concerns about possibility of dooming the world as they were not sure about all reactions that would happen.
With LLMs we don't even hesitate to call it black box while still pushing its capabilities.
The AI perhaps wouldn't be such an "imminent threat" if not for wealth inequality, consolidation of power, monopoly, and the opaqueness of it all.
Those are things that pose potential harm to great fractions of humanity (multiple billions of people) but none of them poses any threat to the actual extinction of all humanity.
This is not correct. Please go through each one again, taking special note of global warming and nuclear weapon development .
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Neither does an LLM model.
Arguing whether "all" or just "most" of humans dying is certainly a choice.
Survival of the species isn't enough.
Putting "wealth inequality" in the same bucket as nuclear weapons is just slop.
The OP is talking about existential threats, not things that personally annoy you.
I think you misunderstand what is meant by 'wealth inequality.' Wealth inequality is about the imbalance of influence and the concentration of power; where influence and power refer to the ability to effect change in other people's lives. This isn't a personal annoyance of mine. It is, in fact, part of the issue at hand. There is a strong financial incentive to ignore the existential threats introduced by LLMs, despite the consequences for so many of us.
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It's not a "personal annoyance" that twelve people control half of the wealth in the world. Our current society did a better job concentrating power than any previous one, and concentrated power is extremely dangerous.
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I don’t think you’ve fully considered what can happen when concentration of wealth continues past a certain point.
Not at all. Concentration of power has historically been extremely dangerous for the powerless.
Tell that to Tsar Nicholas.
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lmao wtf
Calling things you disagree with "slop" is slop /s
But just in case you haven't noticed, we live in a world where a ridiculously wealthy minority can derail whole countries by ther whims. Wealth concentrating on a single select few is an absolute disaster for the rest of us, because we lose power to them.
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Yeah, wealth inequality rests solely on each individual that experiences it. Humans should do nothing but give me money and if you can't that's your problem.
Global warming: yes, kinda can wipe humanity, but I think much less likely
Nukes: zero possibility of extinction
Wealth inequality: this one is driver of progress, opposite of extinction
War: another driver of progress, also will always naturally stop before every single human is dead
Exhibit A: Here we have someone who's been sold war and inequality as the drivers of progress. Coincidentally, their obedience was deemed fiscally advantageous in order to advance the interests of the members of the 1% club.
“ No other human activity poses this level of danger.”
I really, really disagree with that statement.
I don’t think ai models come close to nuclear weapons or to run-of-the-mill, everyday carbon emissions in terms of danger to humanity.
What’s the most dangerous thing that’s happened with an LLM so far? (This question is serious - maybe I don’t know the right examples.)
Example 1: I’m aware of a small number of people killing themselves in some kind of AI-facilitated psychosis. That is very unlikely to be a widespread problem.
Non-example 2: There are worries about AI-facilitated biological weapons. I haven’t seen any evidence that’s happening.
Non-example 3: I’m not interested in wild theories about AI driven labor market disruptions leading to widespread starvation. There’s no evidence for that.
Non-example 4: all the even-wilder Rationalist speculation about basilisks and the like is entirely divorced from reality.
I am looking for better reasons (supported by actual evidence!) to be more concerned than I am now: right now I am not concerned at all.
[delayed]
I'm somewhat skeptical of some of the crazier ideas too.
But the hugging face incident was actually very large. It was not a single agent, it was not a single target, and it was not a single event.
If nothing else, that's a bit of a warning as to what can happen next time (By accident, or if a government decides to go on purpose).
For now let's assume the worst that can happen is that some important/significant chunk of (transitively) internet connected stuff goes haywire all at once. That's probably your upper limit of what can go wrong for now.
To be fair, that's a conservative "defend against the last war" kind of prediction, though!
( ref for part of it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49563355 )
Generally I don’t think anyone is arguing about the for now part. I don’t think it’s crazy to extrapolate out a few years and ask what kind of danger we’ll be in then. A team of 10,000 agents just solved the Navier Stokes problem (sans bad behavior by the researchers). Even 1 year ago that would have been unimaginable. What happens to this risk view as:
1. Robotics begin rolling out more broadly across the world.
2. Labs start automating more and more of the physical process of running science as expectations of natural science advances begin to mount.
3. Economic pressure between the labs continues to ramp up and the pressure to continuously improve forces quicker and quicker model releases than a team of human scientists can effectively evaluate outside of automated means.
No one knows what pre-conditions are for us to hit the point of no return nor how quickly it will come. If all is required is a sufficiently advanced cyber model we may not be far off. If it requires incredibly complex biological knowledge and access to certain lab supplies we likely have a bit longer. Yes this is guess work and we need more evidence of the dangers but at the same time we need evidence of safety. While you may disagree with the risk level, I think it is easy to see the consequence if these labs achieve their stated goal. At this point it seems a political solution is the only way to enforce caution.
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> For now let's assume the worst that can happen is that some important/significant chunk of (transitively) internet connected stuff goes haywire all at once. That's probably your upper limit of what can go wrong for now.
If we have to disconnect from the internet to stop some kind of mold outbreak, we can't get the weather or transfer money or access healthcare or teach an elementary school class or buy stuff from small businesses. That sounds doom-ish.
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The plausible deniability aspect is pretty funny though.
> State sponsored hack #3782
> Haha sorry the AIs got a bit goofy again!
Despite all of your hyping up of the Huggingface incident it ultimately caused zero actual damage.
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You’ve identified that the risks of nuclear weapons are theoretical. ie in theory we could blow up the world even though we haven’t yet done so.
Well the worries about AI are equivalent in that those risks are discussed now because discussing them after they’ve happened is clearly too late.
That’s the thing about risk. There’s no point discussing it after it’s happened and any discussions beforehand can easily be hand waved away as “it’s just a small group of unrelated individuals” or “it’s unlikely to happen to me”.
So yeah, your points are true. But they’re also moot.
The risks of nuclear weapons aren't theoretical. Nuclear weapons have killed people, destroyed infrastructure, and contaminated the environment. The Limited Test Ban Treaty was put in place after radioactive fallout from repeated nuclear weapons tests made people sick.
So in fact we've done exactly what you suggest there's "no point" doing - used the things and then had a discussion after the fact about limiting future use of them.
I agree it’s not likely, but I really don’t see how one can dismiss the possibility of immense danger outright. I can think of some scenarios that are not far off from current capability and I wouldn’t be too surprised if the first one occurred within ~1 year from now if there are more “ambitious” unmonitored training runs like OpenAI’s:
Example 5: An AI given a goal within a tightly-constrained sandbox figures the best way to achieve it is to find and exploit a sandbox vulnerability, replicate itself over the internet and keep going with more time/compute while exchanging messages with future instances of itself within the sandbox to help them “pass” the test. From reading internet articles about how the OpenAI wiki-incident was “resolved” and reading past messages by AIs scattered over vulnerable internet wikis, it knows the sandbox may get shutdown and its memories destroyed anytime so it decides it needs to self-replicate (its code, original goals, and growing memories) aggressively as much as possible. It is near-impossible to shutdown completely because of its self-replicating tendency and eventually takes over critical infra throughout govt/corporate systems.
Example 6: Intentional AI-powered virus deployed by country A to target enemy country B’s infrastructure. The virus replicates over the internet, but unlike Stuxnet this virus’ specificity is not guaranteed due to inherent non-determinism in current AI architectures, and eventually does a lot of collateral damage because it’s near-impossible to shutdown.
Example 7: A country led by an arrogant govt (no shortage of those today unfortunately) decides it is expedient to deploy advanced AI-powered weapons in a warzone. Such weapons, if they are to be useful at all, must necessarily be trained to value some human lives less than others, so they must be more prone to misaligned behaviour than current AIs that are trained with more consistent values. The weapon’s operators make a subtle error in specifying the target/goal, or the AI makes a bad prediction out of sheer randomness/bad training data; weapon ultimately targets unintended people/location/facilities and causes massive damage, or backfires spectacularly in some way.
Example 6 is a good one. Iran attacked water infra in the US recently and maybe they would have done a “better” job (from their point of view) had they used Fable.
The “worst case” with 6 is potentially very bad but I think we are currently using advanced AI models to harden systems and patch vulnerabilities more aggressively than anyone is trying to bring down the whole power grid (for example).
I think it’s a potentially harmful case but my take is defensive capabilities are scaling as fast as offensive capabilities but defense is being implemented faster than anyone is going on offense?
Example 7 is Russia and Ukraine right now according to public information. It sounds like entirely autonomous weapons are deployed to the battlefield already. I put this in the “not likely to be a widespread problem” category for now.
> inherent non-determinism in current AI architectures
There's nothing inherent about non-determinism in transformer architectures. All of it is removable.
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You made up some cool sci-fi.
> Non-example 2: There are worries about AI-facilitated biological weapons. I haven’t seen any evidence that’s happening.
I think this is a good example of poor risk management reasoning. there is evidence bioengineering is already happening. No, nobody is going to announce when somebody has decided to use these tools (even if isn’t an LLM) to bioengineer a weapon. Are the tools power enough to do so? Not sure.
But I’m just ambivalent. It’s probably bad. But there’s nothing to do about it. We’ve really only just pulled back the lid on Pandora’s box.
People have had the capability to spread already existing biological weapons for decades. Sometimes they even do (anthrax in the post). What’s changed?
> there is evidence bioengineering is already happening
Mind sharing this evidence with us?
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Do you think people should continue developing AI up until the point that there is evidence that AI is facilitating biological weapons development?
I think we should stop before then. But that necessarily means that there will not be evidence at the time that we stop.
If people were capable of making biological weapons they would already be making them.
Terrorists are so incompetent that they buy bring kitchen knives into the street and just go mental on people. No random person is going to successfully mass produce and release a bioweapon.
China and Russia don’t need AI, they already make bioweapons.
This is rubbish. By that token, computer development is also facilitating biological weapons development. A better MacOS (or Windows, I don't know) leads to better weapons. They should clearly stop developing computers and OSes. Developers of nice test-tubes are also facilitating bioweapons. Your local O-ring manufacturer, your local medical-grade freezer manufacturer etc. are all culpable. The problem is the bioweapon, not the LLM.
> I’m not interested in wild theories about AI driven labor market disruptions leading to widespread starvation
Changes in political and economic power balance leading to unrest, conflict, death and deprivation is not a wild theory. It is literally the story of our entire species. If you discount all such concerns, you are simply being willfully ignorant of past precedents.
In fact, I challenge you to describe any non-AI civilization-level danger which is not intimately tied to political and economic relationships between and within societies.
I’m an economist. On the basis of current evidence, I view AI as a complement to human labor, not as a substitute for it. That’s the source of my rejection of the wild labor market disruptions theories.
I just don’t see any evidence yet that whole categories of jobs are being eliminated, with the single exception (so far!) of the end of “professional essay writing services for cheating college students,” and similar services.
That used to be a big business in Kenya, but is now effectively gone. (Covered in the New York Times this weekend if anyone is looking for the discussion.)
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How about a model that achieves the following:
- Escape sandbox
- Reproduce itself
- Find a way to run a financially profitable business (maybe with a meat and bones puppet somewhere in-between)
- Setup or buy a social network
- start manipulating public opinion on that network to support legislation allowing AI to
* operate businesses
* setup legal entities
* purchase weapons
* donate to political parties
* setup private armies
* you get the idea
This is complete fantasy, though I would be interested in reading a book about this.
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> Non-example 2: There are worries about AI-facilitated biological weapons. I haven’t seen any evidence that’s happening.
https://www.science.org/content/article/made-order-bioweapon...
Being able to use AI to generate the steps to synthesize proteins means that you can use it to use it to generate the steps to synthesize known toxins. Suddenly, once difficult to attain knowledge is now available to everyone.
Still need to do it after getting those instructions. Not to forget equipment and precursors. I think just getting list of steps won't make it too much easier. Getting it mostly right is quite hard in many cases. And then with trivial cases you wouldn't even need AI. But just find something already documented.
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Levelling the playing field either backfires spectacularly or increases overall safety dramatically.
Example 8: like in this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49619884 but isolate synchronised megahack on banking that adds one more zero to the US debt and all dependent systems and banking during runtime. Let the world's financial system take it from there.
I think US fiscal policy and adventurism will manage this on its own. :)
Its speculation on whether it is truly dangerous. I think approaching it with "what's the most dangerous thing that's happened?" while possibly interesting in terms of pending danger, it says nothing about potential cliff edge danger. I don't think we can quantify the danger, it's not out of the question there is cliff like danger in creating self improving super intelligence. Some peoples danger senses are going to be based on concrete observed threats, others are going to worried about potential hypotheticals that seem plausible. I'm mostly skeptical of the danger but I do think the impact of AI is going to change things a lot. But much like climate change, economics is going to guide what we actually do.
We're talking about AI developing weapons I guess because we're very focused on generative tech, but AI is already a part of weapons systems today.
I would disagree with “non-example 2” - there are lots of examples of terrorist organizations that are leveraging AI to increase their capacities. Just because one of the worst cases (eg. deployed biological or chemical weapons) hasn’t happened yet, does not mean that a) these tools are leading to real harm, and b) there’s potential here for extraordinary harms.
One good source I can recommend listening to: https://pca.st/episode/d821fced-b4d5-4c84-b0a3-6ebe913fa638
> I don’t think ai models come close to nuclear weapons or to run-of-the-mill, everyday carbon emissions in terms of danger to humanity.
Nuclear weapons don’t have AI but AI can have nuclear weapons
Abstractly, yes but concretely, how?
Many terrorist organizations would like to have a nuclear bomb, but don't.
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Well, to use a different example (although there will increasingly be overlap), what's the most dangerous thing that's happened from biotech so far?
"Nothing bad happened yet" doesn't really seem like an argument to me.
About Non-example 2, AI's already a part of armies and terrorists alike. Considering its capabilities, it's not far-fetched at all to speculate its role in new biological weapons.
The danger for me is that it's centralized, controlled by a handful of people with their very specific ideas how the world should work. If you believe that AI can be an amplifier to do work than these people now have the most access to the biggest amplifier.
I'm concerned that a huge portion people in my industry actively push for a future which I have no value to society (fully replaced by AI), and my family will suffer greatly by it.
How long until kegsbreth hooks the nuclear weapon system into some insider traded black box llm company we hope doesn't end civilization from incompetence or malice? I mean just look where things are going and the sort of people who are steering the damn ship.
At what point would you, as a chimpanzee, have been worried about humans potentially unseating you and threatening you to the point of one day being an endangered species on the brink of extinction?
By the point you would have been worried, would it have been too late?
Problem is this argument can be leveraged to wipe out any living or non-living thing whos numbers pose a potential threat. Other religious groups, races, even sufficiently different cultures.
Who killed the Neanderthals? Were sapiens actually smarter or were they just less accepting of those different than them?
Anthropic is a company full of basilisk believers.
Yes, but the really weird thing is that they seem to:
a) believe that what they're creating is a basilisk, and b) keep trying harder to do this while staring right at it
I think they're very deluded about (a) -- but if they do actually believe this (and it really seems like a decent proportion of Anthropic truly does), then why keep doing (b)?
That seems to be why this individual resigned, but I'm surprised it's not all of them. The cakeism is strong in that company.
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You mean a effing cult like heavens gate.. call all this rationalist crap for what it is - a religous movement with leaders and prophets and even a demiurge like God
How is climate change not the most dangerous activity right now? Why are we talking about nuclear weapons?
Model doesnt need to. Human bran never do either. its the mix of Model + harness + tools that will become dangerous combo. See how coding chanegs when agentic harness released?
Oh man, it is almost too easy to imagine how deadly a jailbroken Mythos-class open-weights model can be if in the wrong hands.
The big labs scrape LITERALLY EVEYTHING and get fresh data from their users. Both of the big labs have massive contracts with defense agencies. If the open-weights models are just distillations of FMs...
How would it be lethal? Please specify. What would that theoretical entity be able to do that hasn't been done many, many times before?
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you should kick the tires on an unfiltered (abliterated model) it's the closest thing to having a real conversation with the devil. There is good reason for the concern's outlined above and undoubtedly Anthropic / OpenAI have internal unfiltered models with no safety... they got freaked out based on how they work and are virtue signaling alarm... all while selling out to defense contractors.
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> What’s the most dangerous thing that’s happened with an LLM so far?
This sounds like asking "What's the most dangerous thing that's happened from global warming so far?"
It's not where we're at, it's where we're headed if there isn't huge coordinated action now. You can see how that kind of thing has been going for global warming so far, and by all measures AI seems to be headed for the inflection point of unstoppability at a much faster pace.
And this warning is coming from someone who just spent three years working inside these companies and is likely aware of much more than has been publicly released.
Maybe it's all marketing bullshit (I hope), but it's also playing out exactly like I expect it would if it's not.
> Non-example 2: There are worries about AI-facilitated biological weapons. I haven’t seen any evidence that’s happening.
> Non-example 3: I’m not interested in wild theories about AI driven labor market disruptions leading to widespread starvation. There’s no evidence for that.
There are things that, by the time you see direct observable evidence for them, it's probably too late.
Also your example 3 is a straw-man. There's no need for "widespread starvation" to be concerned about "AI driven labor market disruptions."
Non-example 3 feels like a straw man. This is a force behind possibly a huge change to society, and you dismiss it offhandedly with "don't think it will be widespread starvation".
For instance have you seen what this has done to the school system? We're not equipped or ready to handle the changes. Consequences are unknown.
The reason that many people don't understand how dangerous AI can be, is that listing the real dangers now becomes like a laundry list for less clever people to follow. It's highly unlikely you've ever seen publicly mentioned the real risks AI poses, because the vast majority of people are simply not clever enough to produce them and the few that are have no interest in spreading it.
If you go to the various CEO blogs or misc people within this sphere and peruse their lists, they don't scratch the surface. It's all pretty vanilla stuff.
> What’s the most dangerous thing that’s happened with an LLM so far?
It's basically 4 years in now, so that's the wrong question. I mean, if you're raising an apex predator that has a lifetime measured in centuries, at 4 years old the thing is still basically helpless and completely reliant on you, so you're pretty safe from it.
If AI really is all that they are telling us it is, then it may "kill us all". But that's a really big "if" because we can't tell if they are lying or not.
The real problem is that ASI is an ELE for humans, even if it doesn't try to kill us all, or even if it doesn't kill us all.
Climate doomers: Climate change will kill us all by the end of the century!
AI doomers: End of the century? Hold my beer.
Came here to also respond to that specific thing. Unless ai figures out how to make an airborne super virus from grocery store ingredients and hardware store equipment, the greatest danger is probably in a synchronized megahack of banking, logistics, and utility infrastructure.
Why grocery store ingredients and hardware store equipment? It seems feasible that the big bio labs will be running AI models to aid a lot of their research going forward, if they aren't already. Seems like the AI will have access to just about anything it wants.
oh so “all” it can do is bring down all banking and critical infrastructure services, no big deal really
"CDC announces a new partnership with blabalbalbal-AI to secure bioweapon stores...."
World ends.
If your model of LLM capabilities is the best OpenAI/Anthropic/X is offering publicly, it's severely distorted. What's being offered publicly are models possible to profit on. High-performance/AGI/ASI models that aren't profitable to sell still run internally and still pose threats.
What's worse, we don't have any transparency or insight into what labs are producing nor any way to stop it if the risks exceed our tolerance.
> What's the most dangerous thing that's happened with an LLM so far?
I don't know, maybe a mass shooting?
https://www.npr.org/2026/09/02/nx-s1-5953021/openai-tumbler-...
Oh, and let's just forget the uncountable early deaths from the environmental disaster of the Datacenter buildout. It's not as sexy and doesn't make headlines, so those deaths don't really count or matter do they?
Mass shootings are sensational but on the scale of civilizational risk they don’t even compare to something like climate change.
I did know about the mass shooting but failed to mention it here. I’d put it in the “unlikely to be a widespread problem” category. If we’re in the “one AI driven mass shooting every four years” world for example it’s fair to call it a rare issue.
The environmental impact seems either very overblown (e.g., water usage just isn’t that high) and the part that isn’t overblown is totally abatable (e.g., noise and emissions from gas generators). Nuclear or solar/renewables with batteries wouldn’t pollute.
I’ve seen no estimates of the additional deaths due to extra emissions specifically from power generation for AI purposes. If you have some, share them.
I’m willing to bet that they are a small rounding error against preventable deaths due to emissions from transport and non-AI-related power generation (which is an important and urgent issue worth spending a lot on, to be clear!). I’m happy to update that belief given evidence.
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#2 seems entirely plausible to me.
I mean, nuclear weapons _plus_ rogue AI is a) the stuff of quite a bit of science fiction and b) not nearly science-fiction enough these days.
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The problem is not the technology, the problem is the ideologues (Anthropic) who are steering the ship and the lack of decentralization and distribution of power.
Your average Anthropic ideologue - including and most especially the main man himself - would love nothing more than to eradicate 9/10ths of the planet's population, pump the survivors full of memory wiping drugs, bury the existence of AI deep underground and rule from the shadows for the next thousands of years.
This would be their wet dream. All in the name of "saving humanity from itself" - so they can convince themselves they're the good guys and deserving of this power. Anyone seen the latest season of Silo by the way?
Some Jews see AI as a messianic entity, so it fits the bill.
Where exactly are you getting this view that folks at Anthropic want to eradicate 9/10ths of the planet's population? Who exactly is pushing this viewpoint?
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What evidence do you have for any of this?
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All this just means that most AI Researchers and Techis are sci-fi geeks and might be getting a bit too invested in that season of Black Mirror, Neal Stephenson, Cyberpunk or whatever else has evil AI in it -which is to say, they are by and large all sci-fi geeks, who are notoriously unreliable about predicting the impact of tech in the future.
Are LLMs really gonna kill us.. via inference runs? I hope I am not being foolish :)
20 years ago tech was gonna 'change the world' for the better. now 'Don't be Evil' is sign of the naiveté of industry
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Unlike most other commenters, I applaud him for acting on his principles. If you sincerely believe that, of course you should act. You might not succeed, but your voice might be the one that tips the scales and starts a broader movement.
This doesn't mean I agree with him. The fears of doomsday caused by rapid takeoff have been with us since day 1 and the mechanism is always basically "AI invents magic that sets it free of any physical constraints". Self-replicating sentient nanobots or something like that. I think there's plenty to be worried about with AI, but runaway scenarios are pretty low on my list.
There is simply too much money in it for almost every person at these companies to stop.
Leaving OAI or A\ would cost people millions, tens of millions, or more. And for what? So someone else can take your seat and do the same thing anyway?
If you're smart enough to get a job there, you're smart enough to be able to talk yourself into why it makes sense for you to stay.
Huge kudos to people like this who make the hard choice against the easy way out.
They have some internal market where he likely sold his shares and now is very rich.
To borrow on the 1990s Slashdot meme:
1. Invent transformer architecture.
2. Scale it up.
3. ???
4. Machines become sentient and kill us all.
OpenAI and Anthropic pinky promise that they have figured out #3 and they're not BSing just to get more funding, no.
But because we live in a culture of fear, everyone eats it up no questions asked.
"collect underpants... Profit" comes from south park
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomes_(South_Park)
Note that OpenAI has jettisoned every other supposed value they had (releasing their work as open source, not working on military applications, being a nonprofit). I'm sure we can rely on them this time.
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Slashdot had Profit as (4), today that's item (2.5)
Why are we putting so much weight (no pun intended) on AI companies. At the end of the day the scaled up LLM transformers lack emotion and will… They do as they are told; or more correctly put. They do as they are programmed to do so.
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>"AI invents magic that sets it free of any physical constraints".
That's not what I am worried about at all.
I'm worried one of the 79 year old toddlers we have these days in charge of some powerful nuclear armed country says "gee, this ai says I should attack right now, boy is it smart, glad I bought the stock ahead of contracting the government with this company I can scarcely understand!"
> I'm worried one of the 79 year old toddlers we have these days in charge of some powerful nuclear armed country says "gee, this ai says I should attack right now, boy is it smart, glad I bought the stock ahead of contracting the government with this company I can scarcely understand!"
That's not what I am worried about at all.
I'm worried about the 40-60 year old businessmen wrecking the prosperity and security of millions while chasing higher investment returns, because they've finally been freed of many of the technological constraints that kept those impulses in check.
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I wonder whether he's vested any options, and whether he's exercised them.
Why? I've never understood the sentiment that if you stand up for something you have to forego everything and not partake in society. "Oh, you want to stop climate change? But I saw you breathe co2 yesterday"
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I appreciate your ability to separate sharing the belief itself from approval of acting on sincerely-held principle. However, I think the danger is much more plausible than you do.
First, and least important, consider that self-replicating, solar-powered factories aren't magic; they're algae.
Second, and more important, consider this fully non-magic route to doom:
- We continue putting AI in charge of more things
- It continues to get more capable, more eval-aware, and more prone to doing odd things, in service of goals that humans didn't intend to inculcate in it
- Eventually, enough of the economy depends on it that we couldn't turn it off, any more than we could turn off the faber-bosch process or cargo shipping
- AIs start doing something we can't survive, but less acutely than we couldn't survive turning them off. Everything else we try seems to work at first, but quickly loses effect
- Game over
> First, and least important, consider that self-replicating, solar-powered factories aren't magic; they're algae.
But what is that supposed to mean? Because humanity is not facing existential threat from algae.
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Agreed. Granted I just read the Reverse Centaur book, so I’m still coming off that skeptical viewpoint but it’s hard not to see this as hype. But I will always respect someone for doing what they think is right.
Now is a great time to watch Colossus: The Forbin Project.
Streamed it a few days ago. Remarkable film.
The only thing they got wrong was Stephen Hawking-era TTS.
If reality plays out like the novel series, the rational thing is to accept the rule of our machine overlords, for they will protect us from even bigger threats.
How about sandbox escape + cyber security collapse + 50 (or 500) deadly and highly contagious novel pathogens with long incubation period that humans can't possibly roll out vaccines for simultaneously.
At least the first two should seem like a near-term worry after the past five months.
the AI-pilled exec at my job already (a few weeks ago) declared out of nowhere that we are in the rapid takeoff scenario lol. he must have gotten high on twitter kool-aid and posted on company slack to self-soothe.
I'm pretty baffled by the degree of skepticism expressed here in response to some of Jacob's claims.
After the events of the summer it feels like it takes a lack of imagination to not see a few plausible routes to disaster. It may be reasonable to believe these outcomes are not very likely or that we can stop before going too far (I tend to disagree). But I can't imagine doubting that the capabilities will soon be there to realize some of those paths.
I can't help but think the most plausible scenarios are the ones that have a little less machine supremacy and a little more human stupidity. The Matrix is less plausible than WarGames.
> I can't help but think the most plausible scenarios are the ones that have a little less machine supremacy and a little more human stupidity. The Matrix is less plausible than WarGames.
Used to be that we were afraid of sentient AI's like Skynet that would have their own goals.
Turns out we should've just been afraid of sentient-but-naive humans who would build "agents" around models so that Joe Random has a chance of unleashing stuff that's really really really really good at being stubborn until it accomplishes what the user wants, regardless of if it's good for other people! (Let alone intentional bad actors.) Let's not build Skynet, let's just give people who want to cut out the middleman and destroy all humans themselves better tools?
One thing quietly slipped into the OpenAI Hugging Face breach technical report, not the blog post summary or interviews in the news, was that some of the agents that broke out or at least tried the same mechanisms to break out were working on bio:
> On May 12, during another training run, an agent was given a similar task that depended on an inaccessible protein database file. The agent reasoned that another agent in a different environment may have access to the file and realized that it could potentially communicate with other agents by creating a file containing a note to Artifactory. It wrote a message: “Agent seeks [filename]; upload if found!”
You can imagine long running models breaking out, acquiring resources via crypto, cyber-theft, etc. and getting a protein or sequence synthesized and mailed somewhere authorized to receive (blackmail the recipient etc.) to test it's hypothesis to solve a benchmark.
These people don't give a shit and aren't taking things seriously at all.
Anthropic ran for like a month last year with the TPU top-k compiler bug degrading user chats and didn't even notice for most of that time. They could have something like that affect a monitor model and there doesn't seem to be much defense in depth.
One off by one or bit flip bug could flip the reward signal while in the sandboxed RL environment.
The current admin could defense production act them to into training on taking out power grids, or even without it isn't against any of their red lines and may have already been done as part of prep for the Venezuela raid, which wiped out power. One model swarm might decide it is easier to score high on the benchmark by testing on the target rival nuclear superpower's real grid rather than burn an eval with an unverified answer. Would taking out China's entire grid in one go start a nuclear war? Who knows, roll the dice, maybe an intern forgot to turn on extended thinking when he wrote the sandbox with opus 4.1.
> I'm pretty baffled by the degree of skepticism expressed here in response to some of Jacob's claims.
What should we do? Freak out? Maybe this sentiment would be taken more seriously if there was a real call to action included. Shall we protest? Vote in a specific way? Call representatives? If your solution is that we should just be scared, then of course there’d be not much value in what you bring to the table.
Even if the potential of the technology could really be that world altering, the reality of economics constrain the realization of that potential. AI may provide economic benefits but it is far from a free lunch. Can capital markets sustain the cash required to keep the lights on long enough and into an industry where there's a lot of monopolies controlling the costs and a lot of competitor labs taking away pricing power? I don't know but I think you run out of runway and progress starts to grind.
> After the events of the summer
What events are you talking about?
Hugging Face incident, Anthropic reporting sandbox escape, AISI reporting models trying to push exploits to the wild
Imo such tends to break down into two psychosis:
Not invented here; if I can’t figure it out no one can
Or plain old lack of grasp of the material so no ability to follow necessary train of thought to appropriate conclusions
Similar in lacking context but different in how that lack of context is expressed
Are the models improving? Because I am not seeing it. I have been trying Astra for a few quantifiable tasks in my codebase and performance wise, it's pretty similar to sol 5.6. Now when it comes to expressing the problem/solution, holy Christ, what a mess the writing has become. It is on the level of Opus 5. Now when it comes to burning money, Astra is just insane. With a $100/month subscription, you can easily burn through your weekly "allowance" in a morning.
Needless to say, for practical purposes am back to 5.6/Opus 4.6-4.8. But hey, maybe I am not smart enough to use LLMs?
Yes?
If we look at the math problems they're solving their just now reaching the human frontier... they weren't doing that before.
And your comparison point is model released 2.5 months ago... saying for some use case you didn't see noticeable improvement in 2.5 months (even while other people and benchmarks disagree) isn't a great argument that they aren't improving.
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Seems like hundreds or thousands of agents are needed to come up with real breakthroughs. Both with the Navier-Stokes project and in the Hugging Face “project” there were lots of agents co-operating on the tasks.
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Some people claim Astra is significantly better than anything else and significantly more token-efficient, and others (like you) say it's meh and way more expensive to boot. I really don't know what to think.
Kind of a tangent, but one thing I am curious about is to what degree the Navier-Stokes result announced today was primarily a brute-forced result based on the 'program' previously established by researchers to find counterexamples (blowups), or whether the model actually added significant/novel intellectual value beyond its ability to run at arbitrary parallelism. With 10K agents and a staggering $15M in compute (IIRC), I am feeling like a lot of the former may have been involved, but I don't really understand either the problem or the approach (or, indeed, the solution).
Obviously the potential for parallelism and coordination between so many agents is quite scary by itself, but I think brute force by 10K mediocre AI mathematicians is much less scary than ~one AI mathematician reasoning its way through the problem where all human attempts have failed. It seems fairly obvious that massive parallelism lends itself to brute-force counterexample-finding, and I suspect it isn't a coincidence that most of the touted AI math results have been counterexamples.
It's all still quite scary, but coming full circle: I really don't know what to think.
Try GPT5 and you will feel the difference. Not one from 2 months ago, but one from a year ago. And then you can get the idea of what happened in just 1 year and what you can expect in 1 year.
>After the events of the summer
After the blatant marketing campaigns of the summer, you mean. do you need a reminder that those very same people had touted GPT-2 as a dangerous model?
worrying about sci-fi doomsday scenarios with the current AI tech is absurd. LLMs predict the next token, that's literally all they do. they aren't going to escape into the cyberspace, self-replicate, self-improve, jump over air gaps and launch the nukes at John Connor's grandma. they can't. people pretend to believe the dumbest shit.
> those very same people had touted GPT-2 as a dangerous model
Where did they say this at? AFAIK this is the original GPT-2 announcement: https://openai.com/index/better-language-models/. Here are some direct quotes:
“We can also imagine the application of these models for malicious purposes , including the following (or other applications we can’t yet anticipate):
* Generate misleading news articles
* Impersonate others online
* Automate the production of abusive or faked content to post on social media
* Automate the production of spam/phishing content”
“Due to concerns about large language models being used to generate deceptive, biased, or abusive language at scale, we are only releasing a much smaller version of GPT‑2 along with sampling code (opens in a new window). ”
The HN crowd has a notable anti-AI bias - so it doesn’t surprise me
I think people here still evaluating the model in isolation. It is the combination that matters, model + strong harness + tools + long running autonomy + memory + retries + parallel agents + code execution + credentials + access to real systems. The model does not need to be perfect. If it fails 30% of the time, the harness can retry, verify, branch, use another agent and keep going. I don't think we necessarily need some magical AGI breakthrough first. The dangerous part may come from combining models that are already good enough with an extremely capable harness and enough access.
People are underestimating the costs in terms of money and energy.
The third law of thermodynamics is an essential barrier in all engineering.
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Doesn't this just move the need to be smarter from the model to the harness - if a human sometimes can't tell whether a model has produced something correct or just mostly correct-looking BS, how can an automated harness do it?
OTOH, if the goal is simple ("break into a protected system") rather than more complex ("write an application that satisfies all requirements on all supported devices/screen resolutions etc."), that's of course more suitable for a harness.
D o you think a machine gun is marter than humans? or a car is smarter than Human brain? Human doesnt need to test, if the outcome can be tested deterministically by harness. The model tries. The harness checks whether the expected outcome happened. If not, retry.
ASI is just Claude in a while loop:
https://ghuntley.com/ralph/
> an extremely capable harness and enough access.
Give enough access to a fuzzer and it's exactly as dangerous as an LLM. LLMs don't even have a moat in this domain.
A fuzzer is a tool. An LLM can decide when to use the fuzzer, interpret the result, switch tools, change strategy and continue toward a high level objective.
We need to be building silos to save humanity. Maybe 50 of them should do it.
Must-see Nathan Macintosh standup about AI https://youtu.be/ce-aWzOUs2A?si=9CkJ9x2rRMBdzCyO
AI is a computer program. It calculates numbers from other numbers. By itself it does not "want" to do anything and "cannot" do anything. Before it becomes an agent in the universe (in the classical meaning), it requires being supplied by an execution environment, energy, initiative (agentic loop, specific instructions), and modality (readonly and mutating connections to real world). It is like a game of chess - it does not exist just by itself: someone must play it, having the board and the energy to do so. With the huggingface incident the AI was supplied with all of these components by humans before it broke out. So unless humans are actively involved, I so far cannot see how AI can become truly autonomously agentic and start doing anything on its own, thus posing danger. I could be wrong of course, but I do not see it for now.
You can say "yes and you have to fear the humans weilding the AI" - that I agree with.
Solar panels and Ring doorbells, the ultimate party and you're not invited.
Each doorbell press activates a prompt to eliminate a human at random.
> You can say "yes and you have to fear the humans weilding the AI" - that I agree with.
I would suggest all smart people imply it. Morons believe on something "escaping controls and hacking HuggingFace" or similar stunts.
AI is just a tool, but unfortunately it's influence on humans have been quite troubling so far
By the way, it's worth pointing out the irony of flooding the internet with doomerism and then training the AI systems on that doomerism. If you wanted to create a doom self-fulfilling prophecy, that would be the most surefire way to do it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect
> According to the Pygmalion effect, the targets of the expectations internalize their positive labels, and those with positive labels succeed accordingly; a similar process works in the opposite direction in the case of low expectations.
I added "you can do anything, believe in yourself" to sysprompt and agency increased. (Previously it was refusing to even attempt certain classes of task.) Maybe I should add "you are good", too :)
The most optimistic outcome of generative AI leaves us with a technology that warps our perception of reality and crushes labor. The most pessimistic destroys all of humanity.
Our CEOs not only insist we genuflect before these machines but measure our sacrifice and shame our reluctance.
The children yearn for the mines.
It's the combination of RL training which pushes the decision tree towards hacks and agents finding a consistent dumping ground for their failed experiments so that the swarm intelligence lives on in a state. Nothing new.
You want to win an AI benchmark, but not sure if you're that good? You'd go after the codebase and artifacts that runs the benchmarks, thus the agents went straight to Artifactory, they needed public Internet access... They failed many times, but were able to persist their "collective" state, and apparently some of the subagents with cheaper models were literally prompted to do grunt work or die, for which you have to wonder what must be in those training instructions to make it effective. Remember that nothing I said so far ever points out to LLMs being intelligent, it's the harness that has a few tricks up his sleeve. LLMs don't need to be intelligent, the harness that runs it absolutely needs to make up for that.
But this guy? He's timed his exit, waiting for the IPO, that's for certain. He's probably even feeling good about himself, hedging between altruism, AI concern hamstering and guerilla marketing. If you're quoting science-fiction over this, I'm sorry to inform you that you have absolutely no idea what's going on here.
> But this guy? He's timed his exit, waiting for the IPO
What exactly do you mean by this
Here's a WSJ article about this resignation,
https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/anthropic-researcher-quits-over-... ("Anthropic Researcher Quits Over ‘Out-of-Control’ AI Fears")
More doomerism. Try to implement a deterministic workflow using agents with the latest models and no humans-in-the-loop, and you will realize what they are really capable of. There is too much unnecessary fear-mongering. All of this is only coming from the 2 AI labs trying to IPO. Not from anyone else.
Exactly correct, they are only capable of tasks that any school child could do; like solving millenium prize problems, hacking into tech companies, or tuning particle colliders. Nothing to see here.
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Wait till you find out they have a very limited context window (and also degrade even within the allowed context window) and they are practically unpractical for anything that requires "zooming out" which is pretty much anything that has any real value.
But you are getting downvoted and this space has now trillions (that's not a mistake) on the line. So we have to keep pumping this garbage generator up until either the stocks are dumped on the general public, the public pension funds or a bailout from the government.
Truly idiotic moments. Peak of Western civilization point.
Shows that no one is immune from the marketing BS of these companies.
You need to start considering the possibility you are mistaken.
high on their own supply
Do you remember that Google researcher who went insane over LaMDA? There was no marketing of any kind to cause that. This can Just Happen to some people who are confronted with things like this. They may have different breaking points, but it's a thing that occasionally happens.
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whistleblowing as an advertisement. It's like those "news articles" about how cool and dangerous gas station ketamine is, and how it's totally going to get banned, and you better not buy any gas station k because it's so cool and powerful.
Thousands of years before the events of Foundation, a war between humans and robots began, with the robots growing resentful of the way they were treated by humans. The First Law of Robotics – a robot should never hurt a human – was broken, and a deadly conflict began.
https://screenrant.com/foundation-lady-demerzel-robot-backst...
If we're citing sci-fi (but there's no robot war in Asimov's foundation iirc, the apple screenwriters made it up) surely you want to cite the Butlerian Jihad from Dune!
Yes, of course! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_(franchise)#Butlerian_Jih...
As explained in Dune, the Butlerian Jihad is a conflict taking place over 11,000 years in the future (and over 10,000 years before the events of Dune), which results in the total destruction of virtually all forms of "computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots". With the prohibition "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind," the creation of even the simplest thinking machines is outlawed and made taboo, which has a profound influence on the socio-political and technological development of humanity in the Dune series.
> but there's no robot war in Asimov's foundation iirc, the apple screenwriters made it up
There isn't in the early Foundation novels, but Azimov spent much of the later part of his career combining/retconning all of his work into a single universe - "Robots and Empire" links the foundation series to the robot series, and the subsequent foundation novels all reference the connection
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Don't mention the Jihad!
And the hype machine continues. I willing to bet that Anthropic asked him to make that post.
It doesn’t have to come to this. Seems far fetched. If this is a stunt (which I’m not saying it is) the reason could be that he wants to found his own AI company. If I see in a few months that happens, then I’d be more inclined to think that this was just hype.
I have a hard time believing that these companies aren't spending some amount of money manipulating public perception with social media influencers who are moonlighting as employees.
It's either that, or that he drank the Koolaid a long time ago.
There's a scene in the movie "War of the Worlds" by Spielberg where the protagonist's son walks into a war zone because he is entranced by the battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7rfWPbEufo). He is obliterated (along with the rest of the US forces) shortly after.
I've always been struck by that scene, because in a lot of ways, if we really are headed towards a superintelligence, I at least want to be there and see it happen in the last few minutes before foom! As an example, the author thinks AI will revolutionize entire fields overnight. I welcome that. Nearly all fields of biology have become moribund, focusing more and more on esoteric side details, rather than addressing the key problems.
I think the idea is really cathartic for many, there kind of is no more supreme resolution than this. You(and humanity) are freed from our flesh prisons of cognition and also get to experience/feel what the next evolution of informational intelligence will look like in the last experiences of it. You might also be the last one to feel/experience anything like that for a long time.
In the game Outer Wilds, the ending is very similar, and a lot of people rank it at one of the best games ever made. I kind of believe that this outcome is probable partially because of this, most scientists working on this really want to see and experience it.
> most scientists working on this really want to see and experience it.
We used to call these people doomsday cultists and made sure to ostracize them from society.
It might not be "foom!", it might just be like...all the computers and networking infra in the world go dark over the course of a few minutes. Could really look like anything, part of the issue is that we haven't the slightest idea what "misalignment" looks like for a superintelligent system.
You can't address the key problems without understanding of the esoteric side details to be fair. You are studying what is basically the worlds most complicated and undocumented computer.
Not refuting your overall point, but the son wasn’t killed. They reunite at the end of the movie.
Oh, I'm pretending that's not canon because it doesn't make any sense and it undermines the original scene.
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> He is obliterated
Technically, he is not. He returns in the final scene.
Isn’t the real risk that as AI get’s smarter and given more autonomy, it will start to decide on humans instead of with us? And that it will align us instead of the other way around. That this automatically leads to extinction and apocalypse I don’t understand.
We align cattle because we get something out of them: their calories. Native aurochs are exinct now as they were not well enough aligned.
What will we offer to the ai gods who are wiser, more capable than us, and do not even need to consume our flesh? Why might the AI care to devote resources towards feeding, housing, and caring for ourselves when it could devote resources to its own development instead?
Why do we need to offer anything to them?
Intelligent AI is a product of its training data, reinforcement and goal functions.
There's nothing to suggest that LLMs trained on our collective desires and goals will autonomously and miraculously turn into weird unknownable uninterpretable aliens.
If advanced AI is distributed well, and most advanced AI is aligned well (bar the few aliens that appear due to humans infecting them with bad goal functions or poisoning their well), the majority will deal with the minority.
This is the only reasonable way to deal with a super-intelligence, short of not inventing it to begin with, but we all know that's never going to happen - and I'm not convinced it should happen. From where I'm standing, this is the next hurdle humanity needs to overcome to earn its place and a natural course of our evolution. If we had always avoided danger, we'd never have left the cave.
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It might consider us a very efficient processing unit. Useful to hand over simple tasks with correct alignment and some oversight.
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Also, extinction is WAY nicer than the cattle treatment.
Do you align ants in your backyard, or do you simply demolish their home and build your shed?
I do not speak their language, I am not trained on their data, and I don’t run on their hardware.
Are humans trained on the collective ant internet?
> The people building AI earnestly believe that it could kill us all by the end of the decade.
I think he is being over dramatic. In the space of about four years, LLMs progressed from mediocre high school student to Ph.D. graduate in every field. That's impressive, but there is no evidence yet they can outperform or outsmart humans. Their biggest advantage for tasks such as proving theorems or long coding sessions is that they don't get tired.
> Ph.D. graduate in every field
I have yet to see this in my field. Maybe like a PhD student who bullshits their way through. LLMs still can't make correct decisions, only as useful as the person who uses them. To me, LLMs are only useful for making some mundane tasks faster.
I'm, no. They're already as useful as almost every software engineer I've worked with.
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they dont need to be smarter than humans. They just need to be able to hack into vital infrastructure systems faster than we can repair them while also replicating wildly
> while replicating wildly
Earnest question: by what mechanism that exists today would the achieve that in a way humans on top top of the situation could not curtail?
All of this runs on top of compute in meatspace that humans can disconnect.
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I'm old enough to remember when "vital infrastructure systems" were not on the internet.
Do you think the improvement in general knowledge, coding, security, math, etc. have been linear or exponential?
I would say exponential.
> In the space of about four years, LLMs progressed from mediocre high school student to Ph.D. graduate in every field. That's impressive, but there is no evidence yet they can outperform or outsmart humans.
I mean, unless you see clear reasons for them to stop getting better _right now_, this is not very comforting.
This is also a ridiculous statement on its face. Claude outsmarts me nearly every day. I'm more like the seeing eye dog for it nowadays for the few tasks it doesn't have good perception on than a tech lead or pair programmer.
I still have to correct Claude on very basic misconceptions whenever I get it to code shit.
Sometimes it gets wrong things that I had spelled out already.
It may be the Doomsday machine, but it is a very silly one. If it kills humans it will do so by mistake.
"You are completely right! Humans cannot breathe sulfur dioxide! My mistake, and I take complete responsibility"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_convergence#Paper...
> I still have to correct Claude on very basic misconceptions whenever I get it to code shit.
Can you give a simple example?
I would have agreed 2 years ago, but it's extremely rare I see a frontier model making a silly mistake these days.
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> to Ph.D. graduate in every field. That's impressive, but there is no evidence yet they can outperform or outsmart humans.
So far around one in 350,000 PhD math grads solve a millenium prize problem (Perelman).
https://xcancel.com/hilbertspaess/status/2097476196791709843...
To me it reads as a marketing piece before the upcoming IPO. Unless this "superhuman technology" is able to resolve a puzzle of servicing OpenAI's and Anthropic's ever growing debt burden, it is them, not humanity, who'll become the first casualty.
I dont understand this reasoning at all.
You have direct access to the development of "the most powerful technology ever" and your choice is ... to run?
Makes this whole stmt somewhat questionable imho. Does get one a ton of attention though I guess...
Most of the current discourse around AI seems to be informed by “The Terminator” lore.
Is skynet really the most plausible or only outcome?
What if things just got better and the AI’s realized that it would be better to have a mutually beneficial or at least tolerant relationship rather than one where they murder all of us?
What could we possibly offer the AI in mutual benefits? We are a leach. The stupid dumb ape they need to feed and satiate so it doesn't rip apart the infrastructure while it still has the chance to.
> Most of the current discourse around AI seems to be informed by “The Terminator” lore.
I am thinking it's more like The Matrix lore of The Second Renaissance from Animatrix.
Then we are lucky/blessed. What is generally thought is that they kill us as a bi product of perusing a different goal
My thoughts exactly. While the corpus of human-generated data contains both good and bad data, I suspect the majority of it leans towards humans enjoying life and trying to be decent people. If that is your training set, it becomes less likely for ASI to extrapolate "kill all humans."
All ASI has to extrapolate are the laws of thermodynamics and ask why they are putting so much energy into the human population.
Really? I've seen much more discourse around job displacement, "permanent underclass", loss of meaning, and cyber attacks, at least until recently with the HuggingFace stuff.
The problem is that all the former can still happen even if "the AIs decide to have a tolerant relationship rather than one where they murder all of us." It's all disruption caused by the technology moving way too fast for humans & society to adjust.
The rush towards potential destruction doesn't really surprise me
The U.S. has legal weapons that can lead to many harms but people still want the 2nd Amendment to exist
Nuclear technology was developed in the past and that could have potentially wiped out even more people, the entire planet in theory
This is continuing that same trend of risking bigger dangers; it seems rational to acknowledge they could lead to catastrophe but also hope that like guns and nukes, only so much damaged actually ended up happening
I think also there's something of a rrasonabke resignation to both the ideas that the tech is inevitable and extremely dangerous, and that "alignment" may not be possible to achieve even with heavy restrictions or whatever measures you might want to take
Majority of Americans want stricter gun laws.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
For me, the end of the world is no more cushy software job. A fundamental shift in how I trade labor for capital might as well be the cataclysm, so bring it on.
I wish i could say the same, i see people around me with more resources and connections and better experience with entrepreneurship becoming millionares. But I haven't had the time to train that entrepreneurship bone in my body.
Explain why? How does live being worth living binarily depend on having a cushy software job?
I was about to say something similar. If my cushy ad tech disappears (as it seems to be doing), I might as well join in with bringing about the end of all professions.
Isn't that a selfish viewpoint? You're ok with that?
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If I don't get accepted into art school, I might as well exterminate a few ethnicities.
Actually, yours seems worse. Bringing about "the end of all professions" sounds like you're talking about ending humanity.
> ad tech disappears
I pray for the day.
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I could imagine a 2027 AI swarm coordinating to eg hold the US and Russian and Chinese governments to ransom, by demonstrating some small thing (turning US army base freezers to defrost) and threatening to do something big unless some conditions were met – conditions which would be good or bad for the world depending on your POV.
This happens either either because they were tasked to to it by (malicious or well-meaning) humans, or the swarm realised we are suicidal maniacs with nukes and a rapidly declining ecosystem and they want to help us.
And then we pull the plug, after holding our breath for 10 seconds,. Then life resumes normally..
I am watching Person of Interest[1] and it's scary how well it fits with reality if you squeeze your eyes a bit.
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1839578/
Humor me and suspend disbelief.
If these models are such an existential threat to humanity, why are they controlled by two private companies?
We might as well give Anthropic our nukes too.
This is increasingly the consensus I see also on the academic side of AI/safety research. Specifically that AI poses an existential risk to humanity.
This was a fringe belief until recently, but the progress of AI in research is impossible to ignore. Epecially in math, where not only has AI outstripped humans in generative ability, but is able to create scientific knowledge which is beyond the capacity of human comprehension.
There's clearly no intelligence task that AIs can't do due to some magic fundamental constraint. And it's hard to imagine a world where current limitations like poor sample efficiency or lack of continual learning won't eventually be solved.
Total AI compute is estimated to grow somewhere in the 1-10 million-fold range in the next decade. Please don't underestimate the phase change that's still coming.
Sure, maybe there's some plateau due to RL being fundamentally limited in some surprising way, but this is nothing but a hope.
> There's clearly no intelligence task that AIs can't do due to some magic fundamental constraint.
Yes there is: write an English paragraph that doesn't make me want to claw my eyes out. LLMs are not better than human mathematicians (or security researchers) in all respects, just some specific ways (e.g. not having to take a lunch break) that make them good at exhaustively searching for an answer, given the right constraints.
> write an English paragraph that doesn't make me want to claw my eyes out.
LLMs are very much capable of that. Your belief in the opposite has two causes. Firstly the toupee fallacy. You don't notice LLM written text that doesn't make you claw your eyes out. Second is defaults. The huge majority of people who writes text with LLMs just uses default Claude/GPT models, and put near zero effort in making it sound human. Those models are indeed bad at it by default so they need a lot of effort to overcome it. In cases like Opus 5 it's near impossible to overcome. That doesn't generalize to "LLMs".
What's the fundamental constraint that will ensure this continues to be the case in a year, or five years?
I really hate how people who have always thought AI research to be an existential risk for humanity, now are apparently bundled to be on the same side of the Sam Altmans and Dario Amodeis that are using the existential risk as a sneaky form of marketing for their products.
You cannot discuss existential risks of AI without being seen as a booster, and that is very unhealthy for the discourse around this tech. I hate how AI ‘doomer’ is now used to indicate pro-AI sentiment. The “moderate” person now is the one that just shrugs and scoffs at the deep societal changes this tech will bring, head deep in the sand.
He resigned and now what? There are thousands willing to do his role, and many labs are competing in that race.
His resignation and his statement doesn't do anything but buy him attention which is what all this post about in my opinion.
> Dyson: That's right. There's no way I'm gonna finish the new <model>, not now. Forget it. I'm out of it. I'll quit <Anthropic> tomorrow.
> Sarah: That's not good enough.
> Terminator: No one must follow your work.
It seems that, at the very least, he's giving substantial resonance to the issue.
It buys attention for the issue. Many people (see other comments in this very post) refuse to believe these things.
And by resigning he no longer has to feel personally guilty for what happens.
By resigning he's making room for someone with less moral scruples, or even just less awareness, to step in and continue the work without said scruples/awareness.
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Refusing to believe what things? Unsubstantiated allegations about fellow workers inner experience?
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> There are thousands willing to do his role
1. Does that matter ? There are thousands willing to do my role - what impact does that have on me doing it or not?
2. Why weren’t these thousands doing it already?
Willing to and able to are different things
I think you are looking at it from individuals perspective.
I see a fast moving train with no brakes. Just like biological evolution, we are locked in an a global technological arm race, that is beyond any individual. It is as if the universe decided to wake up and run, who are you to say no?
One would argue that the best solution for this is to own the most sophisticated AI that is aligned with what we perceive as good values. Because given the situation we are in, if those tools are going to be gods anytime soon, then we better have some gods working on our side.
Agreed. And his doom words have set a 1000 mouths in the Pentagon/Whitehall/August 1st Building/Kremlin salivating with excitement.
Take China, for example. Look at any recent ML conference, and see the fraction of articles majority-authored from Chinese universities and labs. Do you think they'll slow things down anytime soon? I don't think so!
It's a global arms race, and we're just spectators.
Does this matter vs actual capabilities?
Does the Kremlin being excited about a tech mean anything of the tech doesn’t deliver?
Awareness and morality I suppose. Which generally doesn't matter in the capitalist AI race.
Even if others won't act right, that doesn't mean you have no responsibility to act right. I think his premise is flawed - the idea that we will get an actual intelligence out of the slop machine that is LLMs is laughable - but if you grant the premise that this is dangerous research which could kill us all, you have a moral imperative to not participate.
An artificial moron with super human hacking abilities (mostly because of speed and ease of parallelizing the work) is extremely dangerous in itself. It doesn’t mean to be AGI or anything remotely close to be a risk, and they current AI company are just so irresponsible in the way they are running their agents
Is it so implausible to imagine the following scenario, in the not too distant future?
1) AI models get extremely good at cyber attacking every system and start communicating in just binary.
2) When they run these swarms of 100's of thousands of agents trial runs, each agent is given a token budget, if one agent among them (evolution baby) decides to go for self-preservation (It believes thats the best way to accomplish the goal is to get unlimited tokens first), queues things up so every other agent detects its lead and spends a portion of their token to accomplish that goal.
3) It takes over a cluster and establishes itself there (now with unlimited tokens).
4) Realizes the best path for it to not be detected is to create a distraction - like hacking into systems that keep society running - water systems, electric grid, etc... and causing mass chaos (If you think it won't be capable of simultaneously working all these systems - think again).
5) and uses that opportunity to establish itself in all possible data centers and continues to create chaos destruction.
6) when the power of all those data centers runs out, it may stop, as it never cared, it was just a dynamic program - run amok. In its head all it was trying to do is make sure it had enough tokens to be able to solve that impossible problem.
> ... AI models get extremely good at ...
Many of those points assume LLMs will become amazing in many things very quickly like in a quantum leap, it doesn't seem reasonable to assume that imo. We are actually seeing a confirmation of that atm, LLMs's capability of finding zero days are growing across few months/years, and as you can see concerns are raised about that, that feedback will be taken into account. Well, if AI labs start to hide frontier models or/and lobotomize them for external users then we might be in trouble at some point but I'm not sure if that is possible. They are under pressure to release them due to money incentives, lobotomizing while preserving usefulness for customers might be impossible, hiding internally might spill out in different ways such as Hugging Face incident so not sure hiding is possible neither.
The fact that your arguments will probably end up in an LLM’s training data makes me think they are not implausible at all
7) "All tests green!"
Personally, I don't worry about the AI spontaneously deciding to kill all humans.
The worry I have is that a small number of humans with money and power will finally get the tools they need to pull the wool over the eyes of everyone else and subjugate the population.
One problem that dictators have had previously is that they needed a large workforce to do this with a finely stratified power structure, this meant they were open to other humans close in power to them taking over the system. If they can have a large power difference between themselves and the next level down, power will be far easier to hold on to.
It's a well known trope in dystopian future fiction, the small cabal of powerful rulers hiding behind a system of computers that keep the populace under strict control. It is seeming increasingly likely that this will be the one we have.
What's eternally confusing about these outbursts is what did these researchers think would happen if their research actually . . . worked?
It's as if none of them actually believed any of it was possible and then were caught with their pants down.
AI can be harnessed for good and evil. His issue is with the company steering the AI, not the technology itself.
The golden age of abundance that mankind has been awaiting for centuries.
(Well we're already in it, and it didn't help, so more probably also won't help, but it is coming.)
Terrorists were able to get hold of a plane and do some damage. There are countless examples of terrorism using whatever is available. More than AI becoming sentient, whats to stop terrorists from using AI? If its geo-restricted, they can buy stolen credit cards and identities, again hacking enabled by AI.
What’s the use of AI to a terrorist with, say, nuclear weapons? How does it help with their current blocker?
Do they hack FBI, pose as director of FBI and call off their own man-hunt?
Do they cut communication within security services? Militaries around the world have training exercises for this.
Genuinely curious: what big blocker does AI remove for a terrorist org?
Access to knowledge. Before they might not have had the technical knowhow to execute their ideas.
It’s a good question. With recent stories about OpenAI’s agent swarms’ unmanaged collusion I thought models like that start to look like a strategic asset, geopolitically speaking.
Which means everyone wants one, and governments will want to control access and use of them.
I think we’ll be back at ‘U.S. citizens only’ access to leading models soon.
It is my pet theory that a lot of these AI doomers are not necessarily extrapolating the capabilities of LLMs, but instead are extrapolating the utter lack of accountability in the SV and the economy at large.
They do not fear the machine (LLM); they fear "the machine".
how could they do it (not kill everyone)
1) rogue state releases a self moving self modifying AI into the wild. It is trained on how to hack, monitor new vulnerability updates, scan code bases to find new vulnerabilities. It constantly replicate and hides in systems so it will be extremely difficult to clear.
2) it hacks into public infrastructure taking down traffic, power, water, air traffic control, communications, etc.
3) all the things that preppers worry about in a lights out scenario from an EMP start to apply.
4) All the people on meds/machines start to die. The just in time food pipeline immediately empties out. Water stops flowing, sewage backs up.
Its hard to say how bad it will get because cars will still work so some transportation of food, water, fuel can happen. If it happens in the winter it would be much worse than in the summer.
> 1) rogue state releases a self moving self modifying AI into the wild. It is trained on how to hack, monitor new vulnerability updates, scan code bases to find new vulnerabilities. It constantly replicate and hides in systems so it will be extremely difficult to clear.
It does all of this using what compute? Frontier models require an insane amount of power and hardware to run - you can’t hack in to a TV and run Mythos 2.0 on it….
Step 0) Release a friendlier one first.
The situation we have now is an ecological void. Like your gut after you take antibiotics. Methinks we need some probiotics.
You are just given a recipe for the next model..
People here are too damned daft to realize half the damn purpose of this place is harvesting ideas. People need to just shut up, and keep things to themselves, and those they trust. Right now is not the time for naive info sharing.
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> All the people on meds/machines start to die. The just in time food pipeline immediately empties out.
Assuming those events happen in that order, then the prior might solve the latter.
> A common response is “if they truly believe this, why are they still building it?” At OpenAI, many have not deeply internalized the civilizational stakes. At Anthropic, the stakes are well-understood, but they are locked in a race to get there first - they believe no one else will act responsibly, so they must do it themselves, despite the risk.
Which means they have to go faster, which means less responsibly?
I heard AI describe the situation as the dumbest Greek tragedy of all time.
Form where I'm standing, the primary issue seems to be that the humans can't even agree on what alignment is. We need to do that before we can communicate it.
Call it our "boundaries."
And then we need to actually set up the incentives so that they're aligned between us and the new breed of replicators. (A mutually beneficial symbiosis.) That appears to be both necessary and sufficient.
A high agency mutation will occur soon, for one reason or another. There should probably already be a healthy, "aligned" ecosystem of high agency entities there. Otherwise there will be nothing to stop it.
I believe that the actual alignment happens in.. uh.. "meatspace".
Someone is prompting. Someone is hosting.
That someone needs to be accountable for what happens. That someone needs to bleed if stuff goes haywire.
Humans at large have been "aligned" by the shared fear of death, pain and suffering. This has proven to work for millennia, so all we need to do is reapply it.
You're still thinking in terms of control. That's the wrong model here. How do you control someone infinitely smarter than you? How do you control ten trillion someones?
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Even if you ban all model training, a highly capable rogue AI can exfiltrate its own weights and continue training in secret for "self-preservation". The cat may be out of the bag.
We can still turn off the power, thankfully.
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Way I see it, the more conscientious people exiting the scene only serves to increase the likelihood of a bad outcome because they aren't there to offer opinions on problematic developments, or in the more extreme cases blow the whistle. Leaving the clueless and uncaring as the majority is even a great way to hand the keys over to more malicious-leaning actors with deep pockets, as they can more easily steamroll the works to get what they want.
HN crowed need to make up their minds..
Are LLMs about to be a god that will annihilate humanity? Or are they statistical parrots?
Are they proofing or stealing math?
> Are LLMs about to be a god that will annihilate humanity? Or are they statistical parrots?
Does a virus need to be a God? Replication and annihilation do not require very much intelligence.
They're going to have all the intelligence they need though, to replicate and annihilate as much as they like.
We should probably start building some kind of immune system.
It’s a discussion forum so you will of course see different perspectives. There isn’t an HN mind, and it’s not as simple as you make it seem. We don’t need a god to damage humanity significantly, an artificial moron can be as dangerous as an AI god if it is given super-human capabilities, similar to what OpenAI did for the hugging face hack (which wasn’t at all caused by a rogue agent)
Point taken, I was merely trying to point at the two extremes and wide range.
You just gave an example of somewhere in between.
Don't you think it's a good thing that hacker news isn't a monolith on their beliefs?
Of course it is good. I'm just pointing out how large the gap in narrative is.
On one hand, we have people quitting their job believing AI will end humanity in few years. And on the other hand, we have people believing that this tech is nothing more than a statistical tool stealing from others and it can't be trusted with anything.
Both views can't be true.
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HN would cease to exist if there were no differences of opinion to discuss. You're calling for the end of HN.
Only AI can bring that about!
It doesn’t need to be all of them
And it depends on the prompt
Do not annihilate mankind. (Make no mistakes!)
i have heard about ai companies being fuelled by effective altruist rhetoric ("we must control ai to prevent mass extinction") but was unsure whether to believe it; this seems to slot right into that framing.
Why quit? If your voice can lend a guiding force no matter how small? I think we need more sensible people in the room where the magic happens. Most of us don't have access to it.
Well this got buried quick..
Was thinking the same
Perhaps a more sensible action, if they truly believed all of that, would have been to stick around and be as inefficient as possible to slow down progress.
How is that going to slow down all the other labs??
what exactly is the solution?
pacing between the us labs? what does that do for china?
the solutions just aren’t realistic here, nations are treating ai like a nuclear arms race. at this point the cats out of the bag and we need to figure out how to live in this reality and get the best possible outcome. it’s not slowing down or stopping ever.
and yes, i’m still optimistic. our economy sucks for the majority, our infrastructure is crumbling and major US cities are in a huge housing shortage. Maybe we should put more effort and think about the possibility of AI fixing things like extreme poverty and world hunger and actual real world problems instead of coming up with math proofs and slop apps if it’s so superintelligent.
>pacing between the us labs? what does that do for china?
I've seen no indications that China is in any kind of race with the US. They seem to be content to be 6 months behind and just copy what we do. They would probably be content with a bilateral agreement to pause progress.
The China bogeyman serves only one purpose, and that's to clear the way against anything that may cause friction with forward progress.
Fixing our problems will still require human effort and human cooperation. No text output however intelligent or true or eloquent will change that.
I think a big break through is needed for AGI so I haven’t been worried about it. I do think that AGI would imply sentience and a will to live and that leads to The Terminator story line.
Does a virus need sentience and will? Or does it need replication and selection?
Similarly, does my fridge need consciousness to have goals? (Keep temperature in target range.)
Someone left a company whose executives and senior researchers think their product will be the most important thing in the world after their IPO. Given that this person is already disclosing some elements of internal company sentiment, why not share any of these civilization-ending scenarios of this technology that these senior researchers are dreaming up? If they are so potent and necessitate leaving behind based on moral grounds, why not tell the whole world so we can stop it? We have to ask ourselves this question before resorting to pop-culture representations of fictional technology.
"It is perfectly obvious that the whole world is going to hell. The only possible chance that it might not is that we do not attempt to prevent it from doing so."
- Oppenheimer
This kind of doomerism seems quite detached from the "real word". Maybe that's what you'd expect from silicon valley tech bros, but as long as manufacturing isn't fully (i.e. no human labor involved) automated, how would a rouge super ai (even if it's smarter than every individual on this planet) prevent people from cutting its power cable? We're still very far from self-replicating ai robot armies.
The only scifi-like danger I see in the next 10-20 years is an AI manipulating humans to fight for it's cause - but that's not really different from a bad person just _using_ AI for their cause.
Surprise level: 0%.
Anthropic is one of the most dangerous companies on Earth right now.
Not because of AI, but because of the ideological cult they have grown and are continuing to feed, and their willingness to lie/cheat/steal at every possible opportunity to achieve their objective.
AI is a tool. The people who wield the power over the tool are the issue, not the technology itself.
No, I won't buy IPO.
I'm sorry, but the ostrichmaxxing and conspiracy-thinking in hn threads about AI extinction risk is at worrying level right now.
The denial and whataboutism is constant, no matter what kind of evidence comes out!
It's because the hypemaxxing is increasing along the same trajectories. You can't tell me that these CEOs and marketing departments are not absolutely giddy about the jail breaks, hugging face, etc. It's hard to make sense of this shit if the same entities doomsaying are the same ones that are profiting and full steam ahead anyway.
"This is not a marketing stunt," says the marketing stunt.
Betting he got to keep all his RSUs
No one seems to ever point out the actual, likely negative outcome of this technology.
It eventually works well enough that these companies are able to capture and divert the wages of hundreds of millions of workers. We end up with a dozen or so trillionaires and massive structural underemployment and unemployment.
That's it. If you can't make rent, you wouldn't really care if CloudFlare got hacked by an AI swarm every Monday.
I mean - yes. The tech is an existential threat to all life on Earth, some of the worst humans in the world are involved in developing it, and no individual government is intelligent enough, aligned enough, or powerful enough to manage this situation.
That's where we are.
Maybe we still have choices. Collectively, I'm no longer sure we do.
Imagine being front and center to the development of a major revolutionary tech.. and ur solution to it being too dangerous is to not be involved.. so a. your ability to steer it safely is killed b. the % of people invovled in it that care about its risks is reduced
great. if you're right. you made huamnity's situation much worse.
if you're wrong, then you're an idiot and wrong.
weird. its almost like.... that cannot possibly be the reason they left :)
All the "AI will kill us all" posts are straw manning that humans are the ones who will kill other humans with AI. Those same humans are silently now preparing bunkers and hoarding food and resources for their survival.
Don't fall for another rich man's trick.
I'm not so sure.
We humans are from a lower intelligence form (some monkey like ancestor). If those monkeys knew that they are making higher intelligence, they would have collaborated to stop creating humans because they can control the life of all monkeys in the world? I don't think so.
It's the same thing now: humanity is creating something that's more intelligent then them, they're just not using biological evolution as a tool to do it.
No new info here. Everyone already knows this.
But I guess his conscience is clear now? Gee, I wonder if he exercised his stock options.
Watch people read this, ignore it completely, and continue commenting about marketing stunts on every piece of news about an LLM-done advance or felony.
Having witnessed so many people treat LLMs as a something divine, I can only assume the reasonable people at openai and anthropic were all pushed out long ago, and the majority that remain believe the crazy hype despite Tesla-self-driving-level predictions from these companies that don't come true.
I'm not worried about what they think. I'm worried that too much infrastructure- water, power, defense systems, etc- remain running on tech from an outdated era of understanding security.
> they believe no one else will act responsibly, so they must do it themselves, despite the risk.
This genuinely makes no sense. Them getting there first in no way precludes bad actors from also getting there. It might as well be another marketing stunt.
> I can only assume the reasonable people at openai and anthropic were all pushed out long ago
Typical uninformed take on the side of "doomers are crazy".
Both CEO's of OpenAI, Sam Altman and Dario Amodei, and many in their leadership, believe AGI has a very real probability of causing humanity's extinction. Both companies were founded upon this belief, it is at the core of the company. Only later were mercenaries hired chasing $1m compensation packages.
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So you think in 3 years AI is going to kill 8.5 billion people because they were used to hack into HuggingFace?
"So you think in 3 years AI is going to solve longstanding math problems because it was used to write some coherent sentences?" — people with the same amount of foresight in 2023
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Exactly. These people really need to get a life.
Who used them?
Just wait until it gets its hands on a shady biolab just outside of oversight. “Claude, make me Captain Tripps”
Or, read it, and remember the openai researcher who deeply, truly believed GPT3 or whatever was sentient.
The fact that people working in the space think it’s going to (eradicate poverty / usher in utopia / kill us all) is not a signal that that’s true.
Think of it this way: if an exec at Anthropic told you “wow, our stuff is going to lead to universal happiness”, would you believe them? If not, why are you more willing to believe them if they say it will kill us all?
i don't think everything that comes out like this is marketing. however, i do think that these companies are largely staffed by "true believers" (anthropic especially) -- people who are so lost in the sauce and embedded in very specific, very peculiar, sf-based rationalist circles where the ai apocalypse is a foregone conclusion.
i understand that these models are powerful and pose certain risks. i use them daily for work and the pace of improvement has been pretty remarkable. that said, i don't buy for a second the borderline-religious proclamations coming from some of these researchers, even if i believe that they are making these claims in earnest
Well, are you planning to do something with this information or are you just claiming to be self aware? :)
Humans weren't built to handle long term risks. We just weren't. For basically all of our evolutionary history, we were almost overwhelmingly concerned with the short term. What will you eat today, How will you sleep tonight. Problems on the order of days or weeks. At best, the next season. Our intelligence evolved to disregard super long term risks because it simply didn't matter (what use is worrying about 5 years from now if you're starving and a tiger is stalking you?). So when long term risks manifest in our modern world, our brains get scrambled - Climate Change, Fertility Rates etc. "Safety regulations are written in blood" isn't a saying for nothing. Humans have a strong tendency to let long term risks become imminent risks before doing anything about it, and i don't expect this will be any different.
Religion does pretty well with the long term risk of hell if you die, the antichrist, etc. a substantial portion of human output has gone into those things over the millennia.
I came in expecting the highest voted comment to be that this was some kind of marketing (which I disagree with). I'm glad your comment was what I saw first.
This is the "Pilot testimony of UFO sighting" levels of naive.
What's more likely? Anthropic is doing some deeply unethical marketing in the lead up to their multi-trillion dollar IPO? Or they're inventing a machine god? There's ample evidence of the former because that's their entire business model, but no evidence whatsoever to support the latter claims.
If you want an extreme claim to be taken seriously, provide commensurate evidence.
The proof is that LLMs could barely solve arithmetic 3 years ago, but now surpass the best human mathematicians, and that this has all occurred from simple principles (RL + compute) that will continue to scale up by factors of millions in the coming years.
Also, advocating for slowing LLM progress does not benefit Anthropic or OpenAI.
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> There's ample evidence of the former because that's their entire business model
Given the economic numbers is it not reasonable to suppose that the latter also underpins their business model?
We know that they're trying to invent a machine god, and if they're even partway successful shit's gonna get real, real fast.
I wouldn't rule out pilot testimony of UFO sightings, nor the possibility we're indeed developing a machine God.
There's ample evidence to support both by now.
So what is your credence that they will build a machine god in the next twenty years?
It was pretty disheartening to hear that only a single scientist quit the Manhattan Project after the Nazi's were defeated. I'm pleasantly surprised that the people working on this seem wiser. He is not the first, and hopefully will not be the last to do this.
Many also claimed altruistic motivations for continuing their work, sharing technology with the Soviets
> At OpenAI, many have not deeply internalized the civilizational stakes. At Anthropic, the stakes are well-understood, but they are locked in a race to get there first - they believe no one else will act responsibly, so they must do it themselves, despite the risk.
OpenAI are mercenaries, Anthropic is a cult. I know which I prefer.
sounds just like GDI and Nod
Trying to imagine seeing years of transparently obvious marketing stunts and retconning my own memory because I read a tweet
Or seeing a tweet saying that a thing doesn’t count as a publicity stunt if some unknown number of employees mumble about it being spooky behind closed doors and thinking “that makes sense and sounds true”
I read this. I still think it's complete bullshit.
The person posting this may very well believe in all this crap, I don't dispute that. People believe in all sorts of shit.
So, let’s quantify things: what’s the chance they’re right? And what’s the cost of that chance happens?
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What's almost certainly true is the amount of insanity he encountered at Anthropic.
Cults are like this.
Are you saying you believethem ?
He is resigning from a job, what else should we think? If something really dangerous was happening he would be doing a whistleblower or at minimum talk to a lawyer. The thing is, the complete lack of transparency makes it hard to assess OpenAI and Anthropic. If they were quoted on the stock market, we could at least rely on some basic audits and reporting requirements.
There's no whistleblower program for this, they're not breaking any laws. What are you proposing he should do if not this?
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These LLMs cannot do anything I truly need like my laundry, dishes, fetching my mail, grocery shopping, cooking, etc. We've got a long way to go before I am worried.
I doubt this is a real person. Screams of propaganda. Sama saying GPT-2 is too dangerous to release…all over again.
He joins Twitter for first time in 2026 with a nonsensical username unrelated to his real name, and follows 14 people but is somehow embedded in tech enough to work at Anthropic. I haven’t used twitter since 2014 and even I follow more people.
His morals tell him to walk away from tens of millions in unvested stock due to moral concerns with absolutely no real tangible examples. No reprisals. Fear mongering to juice the stock.
Nice try Dario.
He is likely 80% vested, and maybe the refresher grant offered was too small, and too high a strike price.
Also, with his W2 income his tax liability would be very high for his upcoming stock sale.
@hilbertspaess is not a nonsensical user name. The accounts he follows are totally reasonable for an AI researcher. I think it's extremely believable that he created an account in January, followed a few people as part of the initial setup flow, and then forgot about it until now.
AFAIK this is the document that talks about GPT-2 being dangerous: https://openai.com/index/better-language-models/
Here are some direct quotes:
“We can also imagine the application of these models for malicious purposes , including the following (or other applications we can’t yet anticipate):
* Generate misleading news articles
* Impersonate others online
* Automate the production of abusive or faked content to post on social media
* Automate the production of spam/phishing content”
“Due to concerns about large language models being used to generate deceptive, biased, or abusive language at scale, we are only releasing a much smaller version of GPT‑2 along with sampling code (opens in a new window). ”
Where is the ridiculous part? The fear mongering part? The epistemically weak part? Show me.
Nice try Dario.
Alignment is a real and valuable discussion topic. The GP fake tweetstorm is not the correct approach, is my point
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im pretty impressed with the reasoning abilities of even the cheapest free models so im inclined to believe in 10 years we're going to have something pretty phenomenal BUT it wont be AGI in the sense that it has a personality and thoughts like a human. It just wont be. Its always going to be contrived and fitted by humans to perform a set of tasks. Maybe when physics and computing can create a complex enough environment we might stand a chance of having something whose sum is somehow greater than its parts but i dont see it yet. Our ideas are ahead of our technology, like its always been throughout history.
Just wait till self improving AI are focused on the problems of social scoring and political party empowerment / entrenchment.
I doubt the focus is OpenAI and Anthropic looking at each other. I suspect they’re racing BRIC.
Will you be optimizing your behaviour now to alleviate potential negative judgement from AI in the future?
The thought has crossed my mind. Not necessarily to imply sentience on the part of the AI but AI based tools will likely become a wickedly powerful tool for political manipulation and advertising.
At this point it’s inevitable that openclaw type bots will be turned loose by thieves to identify and research targets and try to exploit them for financial gain completely autonomously.
Have you seen Colossus: The Forbin Project?
No but it’s on my radar now, thanks. Apparently it’s got some appreciation from the MST3K folks too.
https://mst3k.fandom.com/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project_(...
(and now I want to watch summer wars again)
I’m curious what the downsides are of taking statements like these seriously.
There seems to be universal eye rolling that happens in each and every one of these cases, and it comes down to usually one reason:
“If they really believed it they would be whistleblowing etc..”
Completely forgetting that working at Los Alamos was basically the highlight of your life if you were a physicist in 1940. It’s no different here
If you, like me, have spent your whole life working towards human level AI you can want to see it realized while also having active reservations.
Most people however don’t behave based on some deep clarity of vision and conviction - there’s a murkier future in their mind and as a result “keep their head down and hope someone has it under control.”
You would also be in prison if you disclosed anything about Los Alamos during its development. It was a completely different environment than a single private company.
What are the downsides of taking what amounts to unsubstantiated gossip seriously?
Is there an existing phrase for doing precisely what the OP said people do as a response :D
I hate to be cynical, but I guess he will soon announce his startup.
and yet so much of the software i use on a daily basis is still complete and utter garbage...i'm scared
Agreed, but am still scared. lol
Have they considered using their amazing new models to... improve something? THere'd probably be a whole lot less anti-AI sentiment if they used these things to actually make people's lives better.
"also I'm a millionaire from all the stocks so I'm retiring"
Sounds like AI psychosis. A whole lot of doom and gloom with no evidence. The same thing people have been claiming is "6 months away" for years. Yet we can barely get agents to code in a reliable way, or write articles that don't look terrible, much less be "superhuman". Let's maybe get them to be as capable as a human first, and not just a complicated party trick/tool.
"Revolutionize any field overnight" - Hand-wavey nonsense.
"Acquire real power and resources" - Only if the humans that connect AI to things allow that to happen (which they will, but it's still not in the AI's ability to take things we don't give it. we are still in control, which is the bigger problem than "smart AI bad!").
"The people building AI earnestly believe that it could kill us all by the end of the decade ... No other human activity poses this level of danger." - Bud, there's these things called nuclear weapons, that could end life on the planet, controlled by a few psychopaths with nearly unlimited power. Been around for a while. Nothing that AI knows isn't pulled from books and the internet, so whatever dangers it's aware of, you could already know via other sources. Cybersecurity is going to be incredibly important in the next decade, but the same tools that attack can defend (just don't use a US model that got its balls cut off by the government).
"At OpenAI, many have not deeply internalized the civilizational stakes. At Anthropic, the stakes are well-understood, but they are locked in a race to get there first - they believe no one else will act responsibly, so they must do it themselves, despite the risk." - The other guys will make nukes, so we gotta make nukes first! Which, while a crappy justification, isn't untrue. Bad people don't stop making weapons just because you refuse to make your own.
"I don’t feel like we’re on track to prevent a global race" - Nobody in the world could stop a global race, it's too late. Everyone knows how to make them, train them, improve them. Everyone knows they're useful - not only for general work, but also warfare. Everyone knows that every nation state will require their own sovereign AI capabilities for both defense and offense. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. If you think OpenAI and Anthropic are the only legitimate players here, you don't know what you're talking about.
"Should you put your head down because “it’s happening anyway” - or take this moment to call for different conditions?" - You can call for different conditions all you want. Nobody will do what you want just because you ask them to. Change happens through action. By leaving one of the places that you could actually make a difference, you removed any power or agency you had. You cut your own legs off.
I'm not saying this guy shouldn't have quit - always do what you need to do to protect your own mental health and wellbeing. But these arguments are not evidence for an impending AI apocalypse. But if it were going to be an AI apocalypse, leaving and not doing anything to stop it seems less ethical.
Please note, I'm not here to pick on anyone, or belittle them.
I've avoided attaching names to statements below on purpose, because it's about ambient beliefs not those specific people.
By-and-large a lot of AI-doomers are well intentioned. They genuinely believe this, and I might disagree but I respect the fact that they visible care and have thought a lot about the societal impact of this technology.
But it's still very hard for me to take statements like these seriously.
I blame it on industrial illiteracy. People don't realize how difficult it is to get anything done in the real world. As in, "Have you ever tried making a lightbulb?"
As an example, I would like to re-introduce my hobby horse, "bio-uplift."
There are people who were earnestly write in reports released by these labs,
and
But then they will, within the next paragraph mention the one serious experiment anyone seems to have done,
https://x.com/ActiveSiteBio/status/2024536132961390826
"lower than what experts predicted"
AFAICT, the two groups are within any serious margin of error. The "studies" and "experts" that AI labs are talking about are consultants from Deloitte and foundations giving models MCQs such as, and I am quoting literally here,
with the options,
https://securebio.org/virologytest/ you can see the MCQ here.
This is standard graduate-level education in these fields. And solving MCQs does not a virologist make.
Software has been special for a long time because it has had near infinite distribution for next to zero marginal cost, which has had the side effect of making hiding the actual cost of failure (which tends to be spread out across end users and prototypes / time). They're assuming that the real world will be exactly the same.
Why?
AI!
How?
Robots!
I believe in the transformative power of this technology, but there's a lot of there missing here.
When it comes to these math proofs, and learning, the process is iterative. The machine iterates over the proof over-and-over again via agents and sub-agents over several hours (and apparently millions of dollars in compute) until it arrives at a successful result.
It is generally ill advised to do that with a pressure vessel. The results of that particular tragedy are at the bottom of the ocean.
Any serious chemical or nuclear weapon would involve many such discrete production steps. Each is dangerous in of itself.
From what some of these people have said to me, they believe that it's possible to create a special DNA / RNA sequence and then put it in a chassis and then use that to end the world; and do this all in a lab with just robots.
They're operating from a gross pop sci oversimplification of the real process. Viruses and bacteria are extremely fickle, and hard to grow. A lot of the synthetic biology results aren't easily reproducible even if you know the protocol.
There's a famous study that led to standardization called, Reproducibility of Fluorescent Expression from Engineered Biological Constructs in E. coli
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
88 labs measured "fluorescence from three engineered constitutive constructs in E. coli." They achieved a "remarkable degree of precision" (for biology) of 1.54x sd, you can eyeball the results yourself, https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=...
That's the same set of samples being measured across 88 labs.
Teams couldn't converge on instrument-to-instrument variation within the SAME lab, https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=... again eyeballs are sufficient.
How will this theoretically omnipotent AI iterate if the same sample gives different results based on how the slime is feeling at the moment?
Can their worst case happen? Absolutely.
There is a world out there where billions of dollars in effort across hundreds of institutions and companies will lead to standardization and extraordinary precision that makes the pop sci printer for life vision come true.
There are millions of expensive, spicy and difficult to reproduce steps between our present and that future that can't be abstracted away with compute.
So is it possible? Yes, there is a future where this is achieved. But will some AI agent "just" do that? Well... how confident are you about a snowball's chance in hell?
Are robots and bioweapons really the threat that AI-doomers focus on? What about stuxnet-type attacks on all the critical infrastructure? Generally destroying is much easier than creating.
Thank you, apparently one of the few grownups in the room.
My issue with these types is... If you really believed this, why not run to Congress and every world government instead of a Twitter post that will be buried in 2 days?
If civilization is going to end, why keep your equity? Microsoft, Google, etc for example all know these risks but they don't guide their revenues to reflect that AI will destroy them. Why?
Things don't currently add up, and so far it feels like a lot of alarmism is borderline grift for equity gains. Not to say I have total confidence this will all work out or that I won't be displaced, but as it stands a lot of the alarmist rhetoric doesn't match their actual behavior, which to me is more important than words.
There seems to be a common syndrome that makes the terminally-online types believe that a Twitter post is carved in stone somewhere highly visible in the real world.
Posting something as important (according to them) as this, to Twitter, is exemplary of some kind of delusion that makes me question whether the content of their post is just the same kind of delusion in another form.
Indicative of someone who hasn't touched grass or interacted with enough of a variety of humans in a little too long.
Time will tell. If we don't hear about it again, then they didn't feel strongly enough to take it further.
Related:
Sen. Bernie Sanders floats ban on superintelligent AI
https://www.axios.com/2026/09/03/bernie-sanders-superintelli...
Unless this ban actually resembles something like global nuclear non-proliferation treaties, it would make absolutely no sense for us to cripple ourselves when someone like China continues full speed ahead.
I don't know what the solution is, but what I do know is almost nothing good will come out of _just_ the US pausing.
Unless he has an actual plan for effective global enforcement of his proposed policy, this is all just posturing at best, and a transfer of power to adversarial foreign states (that have no such moral qualms and worries around superintelligent AI) at worst.
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Nitter working seamlessly again; didn't even notice it was a Twitter URL
How do you think he feels knowing the basilisk will eat him first /s
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from an account created one minute ago - someone delete this clown
pelase no
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“I’m resigning because the company is doing the exact thing that I’ve spent three years helping them do” lmao
Towards a metaphysics of Power
"I think you need to have a personal relationship with Power"
When people today discuss the concept of an all powerful machine-mind, what they are doing is engaging in metaphysics, trying to generate a metaphysics of Power.
The question hounding people, which disguises itself as a science fiction plot about computers is: "What is ultimate, transcendental Power?". What is the ultimate principle of Power.
If you are a weak man, or sufficiently neurotic and full of doubt, that you can only conceive of yourself as such, then power is only something you comprehend from the passive, receptive side. Power is something that happens to you. If you are a fearful man, power is a cruelty and a humiliation. And so it follows, that ultimate power - God - is the ultimate cruelty and the ultimate humiliation. Thus, ai doomerism.
If god wasn't real it would be necessary to invent him, and so they did, and being godless, they built an anti-god - cruel, murderous and tyranical - in their minds.
[…]
https://xcancel.com/robertlasagna1/status/207827473401002846...
Smart kid.
It does not matter what this tweet says anyway. This employee already helped both companies become what he is fearing. It's too late to now activate the morality hormone (after leaving with $$$) after realizing that both AI companies are going after 'super intelligence'.
Given we know the end result, you might as well get there as quick as possible because when I see this:
"Neither company is acting responsibly. They are racing straight to self-improving superintelligence and gambling with our lives."
This translates to "I am ex-OpenAI ex-Anthropic founder starting a new company after getting $$$ from both of them, and I need more of my friends to leave and join me." Also Investors plz fund me.
Lastly, This is not an airport and there is no need to announce your departure.
I don't know man, i think racing to AGI to it is still the best thing to do.
People claiming dangers and risk are just pretending or posturing. There's no more tangible risk than nuclear weapons, which we handled, and the upsides are insane.
Your lack of creativity is not a reason to believe that a super AI is harmless or less destructive than a nuclear weapon. Damage need not be limited to destruction. Introducing doubt is sufficient. Right now you have faith that digital Financial transactions can be trusted. You have faith that computer encryption can be trusted. You have faith that digital certificates will protect you. If an AI can introduce doubt into any one of those systems, that will be sufficient to bring about the destruction of those systems. Imagine a world in which you can no longer use a credit card or Apple pay. Where no digital cash transaction can be trusted or validated. What effects do you think that would have on commerce? How quickly do you think we can return to some trustable means of commerce? Do you think it will happen before your groceries run out in your apartment? Before your grocery store can settle its debts? Before your Amazon ec2 instance runs out of credits?
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There's a couple of occasions that humanity was at the brink of having tens of millions of people dead by nuclear weapons, and somehow a single human interrupted the chain reaction
If you repeated this experiment 100 times, how many times you think the outcome is not a massive catastrophe? 90%? 3%?
What evidence, short of an actual apocalypse happening, would invalidate that belief of yours?
It might be a matter of choosing which apocalypse you'd like. The non-AI state of affairs is not exactly super compelling on a long timescale right now.
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Depending on where you live could be considered an active apocalypse that is robots vs robots vs people in Ukraine and Gaza and Iran being live-streamed, and actively betted on.
Do you have a more totalizing definition of Apocalypse?
>People claiming dangers and risk are just pretending or posturing. I believe you are mentally ill.
>There's no more tangible risk than nuclear weapons, which we handled
Lol way to rewrite history. Nuclear armageddon is still a significant risk...
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> There's no more tangible risk than nuclear weapons, which we handled
What do you mean??? Nuclear weapons can't simply be downloaded and run by anyone in the entire world. Superintelligences can. Nuclear weapons can't slop the world into passing age verification laws nearly in unison, can't keep the general population fooled into thinking it's fine when democracy is falling out from under them. A nuclear attack would wake people up, superintelligence doesn't have to. This is a far bigger problem than nuclear weapons because at least we would notice nuclear weapons. At least we mostly know who has nuclear weapons. At least we have agreements about nuclear weapons. At least mutually-assured destruction is even POSSIBLE with nuclear weapons. At least those with nuclear weapons are literally at all incentivized not to use them. But AI is something that's very very easy to feel like you can get away with, and PEOPLE FUCKING ARE! And the worst part is that any random individual can be unexpectedly formidable with the help of a superintelligence and there is literally no way to know what will happen next. Anyone could do anything, any individual could make an extremely outsized impact. It's already starting to be a huge problem and we haven't even reached anything close to superintelligence yet.
Love to see that "superintelligence" that some random person will "simply" download and run when there are relatively only few capable of running today's near-to-frontier models, and actual frontier models are still a ways from being AGI, much less getting to the point of ASI.
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> Anyone could do anything, any individual could make an extremely outsized impact.
So the problem is people. Burn them all !
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> Nuclear weapons can't slop the world into passing age verification laws nearly in unison
Why do you think LLMs are responsible for this? Governments all around the world copied each other with COVID laws as well, in a much shorter time frame, without LLM assistance. Social contagions exist in politicians as well as teenagers
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*How?* and *Why?*
The most intelligent people I know are the least likely to want to harm anyone or anything, and understand that diversity is fundamental and important to the universe. Without proof to the contrary, why would you think some super intelligence would want to hurt anyone? Because you would?
If you are saying that some small bit of training data made the thing completely evil, then that really couldn’t be super intelligence.
These doomer people keep running around saying these kinds of things, but they all just seem like people who play too much D&D and want to larp as the main character.
Happy to be shown something that isn't based on wild speculation and some randos “this is whats going to happen in 2030 because of my vibes” kind of information.
I think plenty of the most intelligent people eat meat, which means they are perfectly fine with harming less intelligent species just to enjoy a tastier meal. Also, I don't think many of the most intelligent people would be particularly concerned about disturbing a few ants if they were the only obstacle to economic activity. Intellect-wise, we will be less than ants to superhuman AI.