Those interested in this may find the following articles of interest:
Microsoft goals [edit: err, Microsoft hiring manager vision-casting goal ] to convert 1 billion lines of code to rust by 2030 via automated tooling enabling "1 engineer, 1 month, 1 million lines of code":
https://thenewstack.io/microsofts-bold-goal-replace-1b-lines...
It's less one guy's plan and more one Microsoft Research team's research goal to investigate technologies that might enable that in a few years. So probably more institutional support than just some guy, but less actually planning on succeeding in the full ambitious goal.
A headwind makes it harder to advance in the direction you're going. I think you might have meant to say "there is a strong tailwind towards memory safety".
The recommendation is qualified for typical apps that do not have extreme performance or scale requirements. They use Java for many, many things.
C++ is still indicated for systems that are optimizing for performance and scalability characteristics, since it intrinsically requires a lot of "unsafe" constructs.
LLMs are unusually good at Rust; it's an optimization target. And the constraints provided by "successfully compile with the Rust compiler" make it work well for agent iteration.
(I have mixed feelings about that, but empirically it holds true.)
Most people it's good at syntax and the error messages give you a good loop. But the domains rust actually makes sense in tend to be quite punishing on slop both culturally and technically.
It would be possible for me to give a more nuanced take, but the upshot is: none of that shit is going to work 100%.
One may get local maxima like an unsafe bonanza, or something that introduces a custom runtime memory management discipline at the cost of performance etc. Fully equivalent C++ to Rust in full generality is mainly wishful thinking. Of course that does not mean one should not try it.
Oh, I 100% agree. The question is how much you can reduce the effort of the port/migration, and in particular the validation effort.
I've worked on projects where the core bits of code were "90%" converted by some automated tool, and in my view the overall benefit to the project timeline was probably only 20-30% because of the Amdahl's-law-type overheads of validation and bits of code not supported by the automation/conversion process. Nice, but no silver bullet.
Non-idiomatic porting also isn't super-helpful if the resulting code isn't maintainable.
As I pointed out in a sibling comment, the plan isn't for it to work. This is a job posting for a researcher at MSR to investigate what it might look like someday.
There is no way they can re-write everything in Rust by 2030. No way. Even new projects are modern C++ at MSFT. Some teams are creating their Rust/C++ binding but that's a very small fraction.
I hope announcements like this show that Rust is not a fledgling little language that moves fast and breaks things anymore. It's a mature, serious competitor to well established languages like C++ and C#. This is particularly important when trying to compare the experience of using Rust to other languages in the "better C/C++" space like Zig and Odin -- these are much newer and have more rough edges than Rust.
Rust 1.0 was in 2015. Most of these languages you're thinking of out of the Handmade Community didn't even start development until around the point Rust 1.0 shipped.
In theory Odin 2027, the 1.0 release of Bill's Odin language, is scheduled for, as the name suggests, early 2027. Zig does not have an announced 1.0 schedule, and who knows for the other two famous Handmade languages.
From the rash of "C++ successor" languages a few years ago, Carbon is still being worked on, Herb Sutter's "Cpp2" seems dead or at least in a coma, Hylo is probably also in a coma, it has several "Write this text" type blog posts, dated 2025 for example...
As an embedded dev, it still feels a decade away, at least. Rust is perfectly usable as a lang to make a little module that links into your main project as a .a file. But, as the language for your whole embedded codebase? Forget it. I have a litany of complaints including Cargo fuckery, ecosystem neglect, lack of first-party support, excessive code size, bad documentation, and bad IR that wastes stack by creating copies on immutable moves.
Don't get me wrong, Rust is lightyears ahead of any other alleged C/C++ successor. But I work in a space where C and C++ have been the only option for the last 30 years with absolutely no production-ready alternative. It looks like that won't be changing anytime soon, which is disappointing.
From what I could understand regarding Sean Parent's last interview at ADSP, Hylo is most likely not happening at all, given the raise of AI tooling, with Dave Abrahams re-focusing into non-computing related work going forward,
Google is still quite keen in having Carbon, for the purpose of migrating existing C++ codebases, for new code there is Rust, Go, Kotlin, Java, Swift and co.
"Carbon: graduating from the experiment - NDC Toronto 2026"
>I hope announcements like this show that Rust is not a fledgling little language that moves fast and breaks things anymore
I see this on here a lot on this site, but Rust hasn't been that in over a decade. Rust's devotion to post 1.0 stability is massive and has involved some interesting design choices. I started writing run in 2015(?) and only hit one breaking change in the language. It was a niche bug in a macro that was fixed later in a later release.
Just watching hackernews you see lots of news about it, but these are additive and not breaking things. I was still writing lots of mio-style async code after async await was out. You don't have to adapt new style or libraries. I used to have a joke that you could tell a codebase's age based on the error handling libraries used, but even with that it was additive. Often multiple would exist in different parts of the same code base. "Oh wow, I've gone deep on this refactor.... I'm starting to see error_chain"
Hah, I remember error_chain. One of my projects during an internship was upgrading a bunch of the old error handling libraries to the new things. I'm glad that corner of the ecosystem has stabilized now.
At that same job we hit a pretty nasty breaking change where mem::uninitialized() was deprecated and this turned out to cause a lot of critical async libraries to explode at runtime. But these sorts of things don't really happen anymore. The editions system is an excellent design and a big contributor to making the language and stdlib reliable.
I'm personally a big fan of garbage collected languages. It's just unfortunate that Microsoft chose C# not to be Ahead-of-Time (AOT) compiled but running on a virtual machine like Java (after which it was modeled after).
Alas, that ship has sailed and Rust has many interesting features so I'm comfy with it taking over the role of C/C++ over the next decades.
I thought it got pushed back out? Wasn't there a big drama about this and Linus weighed in?
Linus is a wise operator at this point. I often see him come in like a hammer to bash down squabbling, but then he allows the situation to evolve once things quiet down. I only saw the hammer so I'm not sure what the current state is now.
I expect that using Rust is in some years just the sign for vibe coded shit that only doesn't crashes every two minutes because the compiler is stopping the AI from doing the really dumb things.
I was making the same argument just a moment before, using TIOBE. Now TIOBE
is awful, but Rust is at rank #10 right now. I think this settles the older discussion as to whether Rust will prevail or not.
This is very big news, all major OS vendors that also have a role in C and C++ language tooling, now have diversified their options in systems programming languages for greenfield development.
Additionally we finally get some public news about the MSVC integration rumors regarding Rust.
I'm totally disgusted that my Visual Studio 2022 instance uses 2 Gigabytes (!!) of RAM to run. What the hell is it doing that it's using that kind of memory?
How about those morons solving that first before moving towards Rust. An IDE shouldn't have to use more than a 100MB of RAM tops. Anything more is inexcusable or needs a detailed explanation.
BTW Firefox uses 1.1GB RAM so it's not immune from criticism either.
COM and WinRT (basically COM Next) are the way to do cross language Interoperability in Windows since VB 5 replaced VBX with OCX, it was a key feature in .NET Framework design, and revamped on Windows 8, when WinRT was introduced as the original design for .NET (Ext-VOS).
Conversion of legacy nontrivial C++ code bases into Rust (or anything else for that matter) feels like it should be one of the "Millenium problems" for AGI. That and full self driving - including the nuances of gesturing to a human about who's going to reverse in a single lane in a snowstorm.
But if 50% of code can be converted automatically to safe idiomatic Rust? Great. Doesn't sound too far fetched. But yes, there's certainly a long tail here.
> Conversion of legacy nontrivial C++ code bases into Rust (or anything else for that matter) feels like it should be one of the "Millenium problems" for AGI.
Whilst I have no doubt that LLMs will be useful here, I still have reservations about validation. I think experience tells us that test coverage is generally insufficient to ensure functional equivalence, and not all components are well specified.
This is from rustconf. A lot of the focus at Rustconf this year has been C++ interop, Python Interop, Javascript interop -- it's no longer about "rewrite it in rust", it's about being part of the ecosystem.
Good. As a C+++ programmer Rust has some things that intrigue me. However I have no desire to rewrite everything in rust and so interoperability has been what is holding me back.
We rewrote everything a few years back, completing in 2014 (Rust 1.0 came in 2015) - it costs nearly a billion dollars! I cannot in good conscience go back to management and ask for another billion dollars to rewrite again (Rust might be more productive, but inflation will eat that up, so I expect a rewrite to be more expensive). If Rust can work with my existing code though - I know of a number of small places where there is reason to rewrite anyway because the code is bad (or sometimes was good but not nicely flexible for the features we have added since).
... but why? The MSVC backend has been falling far behind LLVM with every release. I understand they want uniformity but IMHO either they catch up or they switch fully to LLVM, if they can
Codegen was still done via LLVM. LLVM supports the MSVC _runtime_, here they're talking about using their (arguably worse) backend directly to generate code and do optimisations
What’s the story for Rust-C++ interoperability these days? That’s what kills adoption. Most C++ devs I know like the idea of Rust, but no one is going to go rewrite 30 years of working code. It needs to be something you can incorporate gradually.
There's an interop initiative by the Rust Foundation, there is a project goal to map the problem space, there was an effort to introduce an attribute (`#[rustc_splat]`) to allow calling overloaded functions, and there are various community-generated tools for more or less automated bindings generation.
There's a huge push for this from the big companies adopting Rust. Google has been developing https://github.com/google/crubit. The older cbdingen is still usable if more limited (it's what Firefox uses for some pretty involved interop).
Rust's raison d'être is to improve the confidence of the security-critical parts of your system. You don't need to rewrite all 30M lines of code to benefit from it, you just need to identify the 1% of your codebase with the greatest attack surface (e.g. any internet-facing string parser), cordon that part of the codebase off with a C ABI, and then convert that part to Rust. This is similar to how Firefox incorporates bits of Rust into its own C++ codebase over time (e.g. for parsing URLs).
Because it takes time. Even with coding agents, to add the capability. Then, there is the question on whether Rust developers who like to engage with Microsoft tools, would really consider Visual Studio as their IDE, instead of something like VS Code, VS Code Agent Mode, GitHub Copilot App, or GitHub Copilot CLI with simpler editors.
I'd be curious to know whether Rust developers believe Visual Studio is the right place for Microsoft to invest Rust specific coding capabilities.
There's two ways to approach this — build tooling for existing Rust developers to get them to adopt the Microsoft stack, or build tooling for existing Microsoft stack developers to get them to adopt Rust.
I'd argue that the former is less important than the latter, and my understanding is that Visual Studio is still the IDE for Windows-centric development, so for those MS-first developers, Rust missing from VS means Rust is poorly supported, end of story.
1. Rust's memory safety design will help Microsoft improve a gigantic portfolios of products that have been known to have lots of CVEs and 70% of them are memory safety issues, according to Azure CTO Mark Russinovich's talk at RustCon last year.[1]
2. Windows 11's forceful push to retire millions of legacy PC hardware by putting Windows 10 EOL last October was absurd for millions of consumers and businesses. I was literrally helping a S&B having to replace the entire fleet of working PCs simply because Windows 10 of EOL and Windows 11 refused to run on those legacy hardware. Quite honestly those PCs ran just fine! That's why some has been migrated to Linux, in particular to Google's ChromeOS Flex.[2]
3. RAM shortage due to AI boom exhausted the memory chip manufacturers' production pipepline for at least the next 5 years. This means the mainstream PCs sold today will actually have a diminishing RAM size configurations than last year's in order for the PC manufacturers to not drastically raise the product price (or raise prices drastically for high RAM configurations like Apple does). This requires the Windows 11 operating system to be more conservative about RAM usage, Rust can be a part of that.
I'm quite skeptical of rust usage leading to anything that helps consumers. Microsoft managed to add arbitrary code execution to Notepad. And it all points to a total disregard of the end-user, not lack of talent or capacity.
> Microsoft managed to add arbitrary code execution to Notepad.
You write as though this was an intentional feature. Not, it was a CVE. I had to Google about it. For anyone else who didn't know about this CVE: "Microsoft added Markdown (.md) support and interactive hyperlink parsing to the modern Windows 11 version of Notepad. Improper validation of links meant that clicking a crafted hyperlink inside a Markdown file could cause Notepad to launch unverified protocol handlers without proper warnings." This CVE has already been patched.
> And it all points to a total disregard of the end-user
I don't understand this part. Are you trying to say that because they had a security flaw in a new feature that this demonstrates "total disregard of the end-user"? It seems like quite a reach.
Aight! Fable 5.1 summary says this is about Microsoft built, self-hosts, and runs in production a proprietary-backend codegen for rustc that bypasses LLVM on Windows. The vehicle is rustc_codegen_utc, an alternative rustc backend in the same family as the LLVM, GCC, and Cranelift backends, wired to the MSVC backend ("UTC").
IDK about "tier 1" but I'll note I've used VS for debugging and profiling Rust binaries. I even wrote a tool to auto-generate a wrapper .sln so I can easily launch from VS: https://github.com/MaulingMonkey/cargo-vs
Optimistic to assume that modern day programmers even know what a debugger is, or if they do, consider it as anything else than some weird ancient shibboleth only used by the greybeards ;)
To be fair, even before LLMs could spot my bugs in an instant I really only regularly used debuggers in C because it can't display arbitrary types in debug print statements.
You have it already on VSCode, which isn't quite the same, however nowadays it is an open question which one is more relevant for Microsoft's management, especially given that VS isn't cross platform (see Azure), and is stuck with WPF/.NET Framework.
println!() already works, who needs more than that?
Kidding aside, VS Code has excellent debugging support already. Unless you need to share your Rust code base with a legacy C/C++ code base, I don't think VS is the best environment for Rust programming.
There are good use cases for staying within full-fat VS's capability set (drivers, among other things), but I don't think Microsoft needs to add Rust to VS in this much of a hurry.
I've been writing Rust professionally for the last 5 years (where my first decade of professional experience started in frontend, then moved down the stack TypeScript/Node, Go, C# and so on).
From the perspective of high level application development, I can't see a technical use case for a language other than Rust these days. If wasm worked (and MacOS/Windows/Android/iOS native UI support existed), I would write my backends and frontends exclusively in Rust.
From a low level programming perspective, the high performance of Rust combined with the self-describing type system makes it very ergonomic to use (trying to figure out how a C function signature translates to behavior is a frustrating experience for me).
The thing I have been most saddened about is the lack of professional opportunities for Rust, particularly in Sydney (where I live). I considered moving to the US for the higher salaries and access to Rust roles but recently landed a role here.
> From the perspective of high level application development, I can't see a technical use case for a language other than Rust these days.
What is wrong with C# and WinForms/WPF? It is an excellent platform to write enterprise desktop apps. Also, developer efficiency is way higher in C# compared to Rust. The language is much simpler, and the VM supports garbage collection. Again: For enterprise apps this is a big win.
I know, haha. It's a bit of an absolute statement but as far as all of the features I look for in the context of creating scalable and maintainable software (especially in the age of agent-assisted coding) - Rust has been the most productive, least frustrating language I have worked with.
It's basically TypeScript but runtime exceptions are impossible. If it compiles, it works - so the _only_ thing you worry about is how you organised your code (abstractions, domains, etc) and if the logic is correct.
It saves a lot of time in PR reviews because you only really complain about logic or code organization.
By contrast, C#, Go, Java all have runtime exceptions for things like null pointers and race conditions. That means, when reviewing code, you have to be on the lookout for those things in addition to the logic and structure.
On the single threaded side, TypeScript is great, but JavaScript runtime performance and resource utilization is obscene. With Rust basically being TypeScript but without those limitations (and also natively supporting more frontend frameworks without transpilers), what is the use case for TypeScript (other than legacy software already being written in JavaScript or TypeScript)?
You can write Rust with your eyes closed and it'll probably work.
Interesting perspective. I toyed with rust a bit from the perspective of a c# background (and a bit of java, php, classic asp, JavaScript, typescript, etc) .
I like rust, but I've come to still prefer c#'s object oriented features. Perhaps it's my naivety, but I've found c# AOT compilation to do plenty of trimming and startup performance optimization that I don't see it as a bad option.
Have you made a personal comparison on Rust vs Object Oriented Languages like c#?
From a software design standpoint, it certainly takes some adjustment going from OOP to the compositional architecture and structural trait system used by Rust, but it's not that big a shift.
The biggest downsides are the poor standard library that ships with Rust and the non prescriptive project structure which puts too much authority on the writer to figure out.
The biggest wins are that runtime exceptions and concurrency bugs are impossible. So you can basically write Rust with your eyes closed and, if it compiles, it's probably right.
Due to the high level of trust the compiler gives you, PR reviews (and reviewing AI generated code) is limited to design decisions and logic implementations.
I only really think about architectural decisions, like "this code belongs to X domain, so I should put it in X crate" or "my project should use a hexagonal architecture, does this change violate that? Should I create a package/crate to contain this logic?"
If you don't care about optimisations, a naive implementation in Rust will effortlessly outperform C# and use orders of magnitude less resources, but optionally, the pay off for optimisation is high.
Yes, that contributes to the "if it actually worked" sentiment.
It doesn't have to be slow, if the browser exposed C-like ABI for DOM access and web APIs like LocalStorage, the FileSystem API, ServiceWorker, etc - Rust bindings can be made and that boundary could be well optimised.
I feel like the weather app makes a lot of sense from a corporate politics point of view.
A 1mb weather app would have a significantly less impressive pie chart associated with it come "here are our improvements" presentation.
Also if times get tough and you're told to reduce headcount by 10%, who do you want to get rid of. Sally who knows the USB driver end to end or Todd who wrote the bloated 1gb weather app. (Don't feel bad for Todd, he knew what he was getting himself into.)
Did Todd just know or did his PO tell him to add telemetry tool number 24 while he was protesting and begged to be allowed to migrate to a newer rendering library but got shot down promptly because "KPI line must go up"? :)
Based on windows bloat Sally got fired because she was an old timer and cost to much so all the Sally's are gone and they're all Todd's now and windows is an unstable bloated mess.
The corporate dilemma between "I hired some less competent engineers and they're dragging the team down" and "I hired only highly capable engineers and now I have to give 10% of them bad reviews in stack ranking and later let them go"
Not to mention, they have 1 GB of headroom in their back pocket if/when they need to make Windows more efficient. Quick rewrite of that app or just scrap it and they've saved months of optimization.
I think it's less about pie charts and more that weather apps can be very eyecandy-heavy. This sort of marketing works well for both consumers and board members.
That's less because of what it's implemented in - and more to do with all the tracking and libraries they want to reuse...
BigCo apps will take up lots of space and memory for BigCo reasons - obviously less if it's in Rust vs Go vs Python, but you could easily write Go apps that use far less memory than Rust apps written at BigCo due to BigCo reasons.
It's just not really that much of a priority for them to have their weather app use less than 1GB of memory. It's a far bigger priority for someone to insist that somebody else uses some bloated framework so they can get promoted.
I've been having _a lot of fun_ writing Go apps that don't allocate anything and that use small, preallocated buffers to stream through requests/etc. Basically TigerStyle for Go. I don't use arenas, I just size everything for the worst case (or make the sizes configurable at startup) and still end up using much less memory.
This is really only possible because I told Fable to build the underlying allocation-free HTTP, JSON, etc libraries and consequently I'm not building anything serious yet (although the libraries are well-tested using pre-existing corpuses from reputable projects e.g. curl as well as fuzz tested).
Most "outputs" are passed as out parameters for the function to fill in, and results are Rust-like enums (a Go tagged union containing only small data). I could also have returned (T, error) but I would have to take care that the thing I pushed into the error argument doesn't allocate--not sure if I made the right decision or not, but for now it feels nice. The worst part is that I don't really have a good way to communicate detailed error information, but that hasn't bitten me yet.
This has also been a lot less effort than writing Rust, although Rust would have real checks for lifetimes and im/mutable and enum exhaustiveness and so on--so far I haven't been bitten, and I suspect things like enum exhaustiveness can be addressed via linter if necessary.
This argument applies regardless of how you feel about vibecoding. Lately people have been asking for x64 machine language and getting reasonable results.
Reminds me of how they allow OEMs to install bloatware through Windows update now. I believe LG did something that leads to various app installs when you connect their monitors via HDMI.
I haven't made a full switch yet, at this point I'm experimenting more heavily in Rust.
First I built a wrapper for a very simple text editor based on KDEs KTextEditor (basically bindings around Qt C++) then a wasm wrapper around Canvas/WebGL for a basic 2d display list that currently supports sprites and gradient masking.
So far I've been getting away with it just as pure vibe code.
However, the bulk of my primary application is written in Typescript (both client, server and workers). I watched a recent podcast with Anders Hejlsberg (creator of C# and Typescript) where he made a strong argument for why they chose Go over Rust for the updated Typescript compiler. Due to similarities between Typescript and Go, partially based around them both being GC languages, it was just a better fit for a port.
So I am on the fence a bit here but still leaning towards Rust. I'm going to see how far I can push my two personal experiments. I'd really like to get the significant majority of the code I write into two languages (Typescript for anything web-ish and Rust for everything server-ish).
In my time in VC++ and .NET teams, there was only one 1st tier language at MS. It was the one that existed to be whatever Windows wanted - VC++. I've not been there for about 10 years but I haven't heard that anything changed and the blog pretty much confirms that sentiment.
My advice to the Rust team: you're going to get shoved so I hope you're good at shoving back. At least you don't have to worry about stevesi (unless you're with a16z or have kids).
Yeah I'd written some rust ~ 10 years ago when the language was very different and that led me to believe that it was a 'great within it's niche' sort of thing for a long time, but after spending the last couple of years with it as a daily driver I think it's a pretty great general-purpose language.
The one really common gotcha with rust is that when trying to write concurrent code, newbies tend to throw Arc<RwLock<T>> goo around everywhere, and they end up with the world's shittiest garbage collector.
jdcasale you are right that Arc<RwLock<T>> is a code smell but I would take that a bit further that locking immutable data is even more of a smell. The real bad guy in this case is the RwLock not Arc. For anything that you hydrated once and never mutate you do not need the RwLock. Arc just clones the pointer so it is safe to share for concurrent reads so something like Arc<T> is fine and if you need initialization locking then LazyLock<Arc<T>> lets you lock the initialization but then everything else is just a pointer copy.
I hit this recently while building a url unfurl social card renderer for a project which ended up being something like LazyLock<Arc<Database>>
It is interesting to see the different patterns used due to different cases and tastes. For example, my concurrency patterns rarely use locks, and are instead usually one of:
- Dedicated hardware via DMA, multiple cores/MCUs etc
- Thread pools (e.g rayon)
- GPU
- SIMD
- Atomics
- Interrupts and their ISRs
- Event loops
- std::sync Thread and MPSC (My Std rust default for not blocking the GUI etc)
Rust's async can be very lightweight depending on the runtime implementation. tokio and embassy are both runtimes but former is a throughput-optimized heavily multi-threaded while latter is a simple cooperative multitasking for embedded. We use both at my day job. Even 64k flash and 16k ram is enough for embassy.
I've said for a while that the main reason Rust is so popular is that it has a lot of effort put into the developer experience, with the low-level safety honestly not being all that important to a large portion of the programmers who would be fine with a garbage collector. I used to think that maybe a "Rust with garbage collector" would come along, but at this point it honestly seems more likely that an optional garbage collector would be added to Rust (probably with just the primitives in std and leaving it up to libraries to provide a more full experience, like with async runtimes).
Oh, its good at doing desktop applications these days? Which GUI libraries are good these days? Some native win32 binding? Are there good equivalents for Qt?
I'm interested in getting back to native application development; the job is on Electron right now and it's… meh.
Rapid prototyping is almost a meme at this point. If you are hand rolling code old school, you will waste more time shoehorning JavaScript and python semantics into rust code and end up with worse quality that takes more time rather than writing it from rust.
People did this a lot when rust was not as popular but there are plenty of very good rust programmers now who understand the language and can make programs that are significantly more performance for a marginal development cost.
Script ability can also be done in rust, Notably Zed (rust ide/vscode whatevers) is written in rust, and all the plugins are compiled to WASM, sandboxed and loaded.
Go is pretty nice for server-side API but if your application share types between boundries then rust is better
Rust is great for rapid protoyping, IMO. Or, at least the subset of rapid prototyping that involves massive rewrites to try out different approaches. Rust has a saying "if it compiles, it works", the compiler really ensures that you don't miss something when doing that rewrite.
My employer company go through JavaScript, Java, Golang and at the end landed on Rust for srver side and don't want to change anything. Everything is Rust now, regardless of traffic.
I don't know why you think it's only usable but this is your right.
It’s interesting how things have changed in 25 years.
Around 2001, Microsoft was crusading against open source and facing an antitrust lawsuit with Netscape.
Now 25 years later, MS runs its cloud businesses with Linux, and their development in Rust.
That grin will soon be wiped off their faces when Linux Mint takes over the desktop and wipes another one or two Trillion dollars off their market cap.
They've changed business model from selling software (windows, office, terminal server) to selling services (cloud services, user surveillance/exfil, advertising). The OS is just a vehicle to drive those service streams: maybe it's even a loss leader?
I remember an other 1 tier language ms once had. Anyone remember Visual-J?
On the other hand if we could code in rust and get windows.forms as a ui it might make sense. MS is burning UI layer faster than one can train on
While literally true, the phrasing of this title will certainly and (IMO) purposefully confuse some headline scanners vs: “Rust Is a Tier-1 Language at Microsoft”.
It’s cool to see rust join C++, C#, and typescript as primary engineering languages. Confusingly there are no tier 2 or 3 languages, just tier 1 at Microsoft
It could as well be the opposite, but Rust does not need a proof of quality today, certainly not from Microsoft. Still, becoming Tier 1 in major trillion-dollar corporations (Microsoft, Meta, Amazon, and I know Google also has efforts in that direction) is something.
I love how World of Warcraft "gear tier" jargon has expanded into the rest of the world. Pre-Y2K, the pseudo-formal usage of "tier-N" wasn't widespread in the US.
Tier 1 is the summit of summits - the summum bonum of languages, the highest order to which a language can aspire. Very few ever attain it. Non multa, sed multum: not many, but only those of extraordinary quality. Most languages remain forever in Tier 3, never passing beyond its gates. Of these, scarcely 1% ascend to Tier 2. And from that already distinguished company, a mere 0.1% possess the refinement, depth, and excellence required to cross the final threshold into Tier 1.
Consider what that means: Tier 1 represents roughly the top 0.001% of languages. Pauci sed electi - few, but chosen. The crème de la crème. The aristocracy of languages. Primus inter pares, yet standing at the very edge of what programming language greatness can be.
Ad astra per aspera. Through hardship, to the stars. Tier 1 is not merely another rank: it is the ultima Thule, the farthest frontier, the crown, the apotheosis.
This “Tier-1 language” engineering status for Rust means giving internal teams a paved path from local development to production: secure toolchain builds, productive developer tooling, quality workflows, deep platform integration, and compliance with the SDL requirements Microsoft software must meet.
Specifically, it joins a list of existing Tier 1 languages (C++, C#, and TypeScript), as "one of the best-supported languages for internal development at Microsoft"
Yes, about as good as a language that is 40 years old, and was also (like Rust) 10 years old when becoming Tier 1 inside Microsoft, while there were far less alternatives.
Rust is now in the Top Ten of TIOBE. Now, TIOBE sucks, but
I found that as a general trend plotted over years, it is
not that bad. So Rust is definitely having solid demonstrated
use cases in the "real" world.
Having previously led Rust at Google, I remember several great cross-company discussions with Microsoft engineers on interop.
Companies with massive C++ codebases use Rust as a pragmatic hedge. C++ as we know it is unlikely to ever become fully memory safe, and unlike C++ standard committee voices who dispute the urgency, major industry players need actionable solutions today.
Because these existing codebases are so vast, Rust must have a viable C++ interop story. However, defining what "good interop" means remains tricky. C++ routinely tolerates aliasing and relies on patterns that violate Rust's aliasing rules. Shared backend infrastructure (like connecting rustc directly to MSVC backends) helps with ABI layout, cross-language inlining, and toolchain parity, but it doesn't solve the core type system divergence.
The fundamental obstacle is type systems:
* Boundaries remain unsafe: Compilers cannot statically verify C++ safety invariants. Crossing the boundary stays in unsafe territory.
* Idiomatic C++ structures often cannot map cleanly into Rust idioms. This forces developers into onerous safety comments or heavy wrapper layers. At some point, application writers will consider serialization / in-process RPC or a full rewrite as a cheaper or cleaner option of getting interop.
Bridging this gap on the ABI level is pragmatic, but pushing Rust's semantics to accommodate C++ edge cases risks compromising "pure Rust" goals. I doubt the broader Rust community will favor complicating Rust's safety model just to smooth over legacy C++ patterns.
To be clear: practical interop is a worthwhile investment, but "seamless interop" needs serious qualification. It will always have hard limits. There will always be friction at the boundary and it will always be a tough sell.
I hope this kind of thing means Rust stops making so many rapid breaking changes in th compiler. I've tried it twice, once in early 2021 once 2025. Both times I tried to compile a few random projects I found on the web, stuff like a wordpress fanfic scraper, a software defined radio program, etc.
In 2021 my linux distro I was using had just been released 3 months prior but it's rustc already could not compile 2 of 3 projects due to the use of new features added to rustc in those 3 months. In the SDR case I knew the author and he was able to re-write it in more general rust code and it worked great. In 2025 my linux distro had been out for a couple years. None of the rust projects I tried would compile with my rustc.
Rust, in the past, seemed a very bleeding edge, move fast and break things community. I hope that with more people using it in more places the demographics change and people won't always target latest and greatest. A lifetime for the compiler of at least a few years would make it a very useable language. Adoption at microsoft might help this.
You can compile any old code with newer rustc as long as old project does not use unstable features that have changed/went away. What are you on? I recently recompiled project from 2015 with latest stable rust just fine.
All breaking changesin rust done via editions and you can mix-and-match editions.
I suspect GP is using system rustc to build random projects off of github and doesn't use one of the distros that actually updates rustc, like Fedora, SuSE or Arch.
Then the conversation is about forward compatibility, whether developers should wait X amount of time before using new std APIs or features, and whether the ease of using rustup and project expectation of it being accessible is reasonable or not.
It sounds like you are not running into breaking changes, you are just running into projects that like to use new features that are not available in your older compiler.
This is great! Hope this trend will continue in the future; using a memory-safe language should be a top priority imo in context of the coming rogue AI swarms.
You gotta have balls or be receiving tons of money to publicly celebrate the sloppiest software company of the decade making your programming language Tier 1 internally.
Those interested in this may find the following articles of interest:
Microsoft goals [edit: err, Microsoft hiring manager vision-casting goal ] to convert 1 billion lines of code to rust by 2030 via automated tooling enabling "1 engineer, 1 month, 1 million lines of code": https://thenewstack.io/microsofts-bold-goal-replace-1b-lines...
DARPA work towards automating converting C code to Rust using a mix of 6 different teams using different approaches: https://www.darpa.mil/research/programs/translating-all-c-to... Feb 2026 Progress report: https://github.com/DARPA-TRACTOR-Program/Reports/blob/main/F...
That is not "Microsoft goals", that is "one employee's LinkedIn comment of his personal goal".
It's less one guy's plan and more one Microsoft Research team's research goal to investigate technologies that might enable that in a few years. So probably more institutional support than just some guy, but less actually planning on succeeding in the full ambitious goal.
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what's your point?
There have also been repeated statements from NSA & CISA that they recommend all development should be done in memory safe languages.
It's abundantly clear that there is a strong headwind towards memory safety, whether that's Rust or GC'd languages.
A headwind makes it harder to advance in the direction you're going. I think you might have meant to say "there is a strong tailwind towards memory safety".
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The recommendation is qualified for typical apps that do not have extreme performance or scale requirements. They use Java for many, many things.
C++ is still indicated for systems that are optimizing for performance and scalability characteristics, since it intrinsically requires a lot of "unsafe" constructs.
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What with this llms not so good in rust mantra? Something changed? In my experience they are pretty good, but haters gonna hate.
LLMs are unusually good at Rust; it's an optimization target. And the constraints provided by "successfully compile with the Rust compiler" make it work well for agent iteration.
(I have mixed feelings about that, but empirically it holds true.)
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Most people it's good at syntax and the error messages give you a good loop. But the domains rust actually makes sense in tend to be quite punishing on slop both culturally and technically.
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It would be possible for me to give a more nuanced take, but the upshot is: none of that shit is going to work 100%.
One may get local maxima like an unsafe bonanza, or something that introduces a custom runtime memory management discipline at the cost of performance etc. Fully equivalent C++ to Rust in full generality is mainly wishful thinking. Of course that does not mean one should not try it.
See also my other comment.
Oh, I 100% agree. The question is how much you can reduce the effort of the port/migration, and in particular the validation effort.
I've worked on projects where the core bits of code were "90%" converted by some automated tool, and in my view the overall benefit to the project timeline was probably only 20-30% because of the Amdahl's-law-type overheads of validation and bits of code not supported by the automation/conversion process. Nice, but no silver bullet.
Non-idiomatic porting also isn't super-helpful if the resulting code isn't maintainable.
As I pointed out in a sibling comment, the plan isn't for it to work. This is a job posting for a researcher at MSR to investigate what it might look like someday.
There is no way they can re-write everything in Rust by 2030. No way. Even new projects are modern C++ at MSFT. Some teams are creating their Rust/C++ binding but that's a very small fraction.
Just in case slop is not strong enough.
These kinds of sanitized corporate, feel-good articles are anything but interesting.
A disgruntled former Azure employee posting what a clusterfuck their SW, including their Rust effort is? That’s both rare and interesting.
I hope announcements like this show that Rust is not a fledgling little language that moves fast and breaks things anymore. It's a mature, serious competitor to well established languages like C++ and C#. This is particularly important when trying to compare the experience of using Rust to other languages in the "better C/C++" space like Zig and Odin -- these are much newer and have more rough edges than Rust.
Rust 1.0 was in 2015. Most of these languages you're thinking of out of the Handmade Community didn't even start development until around the point Rust 1.0 shipped.
In theory Odin 2027, the 1.0 release of Bill's Odin language, is scheduled for, as the name suggests, early 2027. Zig does not have an announced 1.0 schedule, and who knows for the other two famous Handmade languages.
From the rash of "C++ successor" languages a few years ago, Carbon is still being worked on, Herb Sutter's "Cpp2" seems dead or at least in a coma, Hylo is probably also in a coma, it has several "Write this text" type blog posts, dated 2025 for example...
As an embedded dev, it still feels a decade away, at least. Rust is perfectly usable as a lang to make a little module that links into your main project as a .a file. But, as the language for your whole embedded codebase? Forget it. I have a litany of complaints including Cargo fuckery, ecosystem neglect, lack of first-party support, excessive code size, bad documentation, and bad IR that wastes stack by creating copies on immutable moves.
Don't get me wrong, Rust is lightyears ahead of any other alleged C/C++ successor. But I work in a space where C and C++ have been the only option for the last 30 years with absolutely no production-ready alternative. It looks like that won't be changing anytime soon, which is disappointing.
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From what I could understand regarding Sean Parent's last interview at ADSP, Hylo is most likely not happening at all, given the raise of AI tooling, with Dave Abrahams re-focusing into non-computing related work going forward,
https://adspthepodcast.com/2026/08/21/Episode-300.html
Cpp2 was Herb's experiment and doesn't seem to be developed much further now,
https://github.com/hsutter/cppfront/discussions/1450
Google is still quite keen in having Carbon, for the purpose of migrating existing C++ codebases, for new code there is Rust, Go, Kotlin, Java, Swift and co.
"Carbon: graduating from the experiment - NDC Toronto 2026"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJl4ftb5Fxg&t=9
> other two famous Handmade languages
Jai and... C3? FilC?
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To Odin's credit, it is used for production software that _isn't_ a toy (by the language's own authors). It is probably 1.0 quality already.
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>I hope announcements like this show that Rust is not a fledgling little language that moves fast and breaks things anymore
I see this on here a lot on this site, but Rust hasn't been that in over a decade. Rust's devotion to post 1.0 stability is massive and has involved some interesting design choices. I started writing run in 2015(?) and only hit one breaking change in the language. It was a niche bug in a macro that was fixed later in a later release.
Just watching hackernews you see lots of news about it, but these are additive and not breaking things. I was still writing lots of mio-style async code after async await was out. You don't have to adapt new style or libraries. I used to have a joke that you could tell a codebase's age based on the error handling libraries used, but even with that it was additive. Often multiple would exist in different parts of the same code base. "Oh wow, I've gone deep on this refactor.... I'm starting to see error_chain"
Hah, I remember error_chain. One of my projects during an internship was upgrading a bunch of the old error handling libraries to the new things. I'm glad that corner of the ecosystem has stabilized now.
At that same job we hit a pretty nasty breaking change where mem::uninitialized() was deprecated and this turned out to cause a lot of critical async libraries to explode at runtime. But these sorts of things don't really happen anymore. The editions system is an excellent design and a big contributor to making the language and stdlib reliable.
Rust is a serious contender for the next mainstream, widely adopted low level language.
Indeed, unless you're using Safari, you're almost certainly using Rust code to read this webpage.
Allegedly, there is Rust in macOS (but maybe not in iOS), so maybe it's true even if you're using Safari.
I'm personally a big fan of garbage collected languages. It's just unfortunate that Microsoft chose C# not to be Ahead-of-Time (AOT) compiled but running on a virtual machine like Java (after which it was modeled after).
Alas, that ship has sailed and Rust has many interesting features so I'm comfy with it taking over the role of C/C++ over the next decades.
Native AOT with C#/.net has come a long way, fwiw.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/deploying/nati...
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For me it was the inclusion in the kernel. That locks it in as here to stay
I thought it got pushed back out? Wasn't there a big drama about this and Linus weighed in?
Linus is a wise operator at this point. I often see him come in like a hammer to bash down squabbling, but then he allows the situation to evolve once things quiet down. I only saw the hammer so I'm not sure what the current state is now.
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I expect that using Rust is in some years just the sign for vibe coded shit that only doesn't crashes every two minutes because the compiler is stopping the AI from doing the really dumb things.
I was making the same argument just a moment before, using TIOBE. Now TIOBE is awful, but Rust is at rank #10 right now. I think this settles the older discussion as to whether Rust will prevail or not.
Meh, I don't really trust TIOBE. It's at best a very noisy signal. And languages can end up on there for unusual reasons.
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This is very big news, all major OS vendors that also have a role in C and C++ language tooling, now have diversified their options in systems programming languages for greenfield development.
Additionally we finally get some public news about the MSVC integration rumors regarding Rust.
I'm totally disgusted that my Visual Studio 2022 instance uses 2 Gigabytes (!!) of RAM to run. What the hell is it doing that it's using that kind of memory?
How about those morons solving that first before moving towards Rust. An IDE shouldn't have to use more than a 100MB of RAM tops. Anything more is inexcusable or needs a detailed explanation.
BTW Firefox uses 1.1GB RAM so it's not immune from criticism either.
The complaint can be applied to any modern software, unfortunately.
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Are you thinking this augurs more interoperability features in C?
Why should it?
COM and WinRT (basically COM Next) are the way to do cross language Interoperability in Windows since VB 5 replaced VBX with OCX, it was a key feature in .NET Framework design, and revamped on Windows 8, when WinRT was introduced as the original design for .NET (Ext-VOS).
https://arstechnica.com/features/2012/10/windows-8-and-winrt...
See windows-rs crate.
Conversion of legacy nontrivial C++ code bases into Rust (or anything else for that matter) feels like it should be one of the "Millenium problems" for AGI. That and full self driving - including the nuances of gesturing to a human about who's going to reverse in a single lane in a snowstorm.
But if 50% of code can be converted automatically to safe idiomatic Rust? Great. Doesn't sound too far fetched. But yes, there's certainly a long tail here.
> Conversion of legacy nontrivial C++ code bases into Rust (or anything else for that matter) feels like it should be one of the "Millenium problems" for AGI.
Whilst I have no doubt that LLMs will be useful here, I still have reservations about validation. I think experience tells us that test coverage is generally insufficient to ensure functional equivalence, and not all components are well specified.
ProgramBench was published recently where agents have to reconstruct a program given just the binary and documentation.
https://programbench.com/
If we have AGI, it can just solve all the memory issues in the existing codebase instead of rewriting it all.
But then we'd still be left with a C or C++ codebase.
This is from rustconf. A lot of the focus at Rustconf this year has been C++ interop, Python Interop, Javascript interop -- it's no longer about "rewrite it in rust", it's about being part of the ecosystem.
Rewrite it in Rust has always been more a fantasy of the C++ community than a goal of the Rust ecosystem.
Good. As a C+++ programmer Rust has some things that intrigue me. However I have no desire to rewrite everything in rust and so interoperability has been what is holding me back.
We rewrote everything a few years back, completing in 2014 (Rust 1.0 came in 2015) - it costs nearly a billion dollars! I cannot in good conscience go back to management and ask for another billion dollars to rewrite again (Rust might be more productive, but inflation will eat that up, so I expect a rewrite to be more expensive). If Rust can work with my existing code though - I know of a number of small places where there is reason to rewrite anyway because the code is bad (or sometimes was good but not nicely flexible for the features we have added since).
What were you working on that cost a billion dollars to rewrite? Or was that hyperbole?
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The big news here is they've replaced LLVM with MSVC's backend.
... but why? The MSVC backend has been falling far behind LLVM with every release. I understand they want uniformity but IMHO either they catch up or they switch fully to LLVM, if they can
I'm sure that's a requirement for being a "Tier-1" language.
Eh, they call TypeScript a tier 1 language too.
MSVC always was the default backend for Windows platforms.
Codegen was still done via LLVM. LLVM supports the MSVC _runtime_, here they're talking about using their (arguably worse) backend directly to generate code and do optimisations
What’s the story for Rust-C++ interoperability these days? That’s what kills adoption. Most C++ devs I know like the idea of Rust, but no one is going to go rewrite 30 years of working code. It needs to be something you can incorporate gradually.
There's an interop initiative by the Rust Foundation, there is a project goal to map the problem space, there was an effort to introduce an attribute (`#[rustc_splat]`) to allow calling overloaded functions, and there are various community-generated tools for more or less automated bindings generation.
What we do at work is defined a clear boundary and use extern "C" functions in Rust to make them callable from C++, and the same for callbacks.
Required some effort but we're happy with the result.
There's a huge push for this from the big companies adopting Rust. Google has been developing https://github.com/google/crubit. The older cbdingen is still usable if more limited (it's what Firefox uses for some pretty involved interop).
You might want to take a look at https://github.com/hkalbasi/zngur
Calling Rust from C++ seems to be more technically straightforward than the reverse.
Rust's raison d'être is to improve the confidence of the security-critical parts of your system. You don't need to rewrite all 30M lines of code to benefit from it, you just need to identify the 1% of your codebase with the greatest attack surface (e.g. any internet-facing string parser), cordon that part of the codebase off with a C ABI, and then convert that part to Rust. This is similar to how Firefox incorporates bits of Rust into its own C++ codebase over time (e.g. for parsing URLs).
ya our codebase is 30m lines of c++
If it is a tier-1 language why isn't it supported in Visual Studio?
Because it takes time. Even with coding agents, to add the capability. Then, there is the question on whether Rust developers who like to engage with Microsoft tools, would really consider Visual Studio as their IDE, instead of something like VS Code, VS Code Agent Mode, GitHub Copilot App, or GitHub Copilot CLI with simpler editors.
I'd be curious to know whether Rust developers believe Visual Studio is the right place for Microsoft to invest Rust specific coding capabilities.
There's two ways to approach this — build tooling for existing Rust developers to get them to adopt the Microsoft stack, or build tooling for existing Microsoft stack developers to get them to adopt Rust.
I'd argue that the former is less important than the latter, and my understanding is that Visual Studio is still the IDE for Windows-centric development, so for those MS-first developers, Rust missing from VS means Rust is poorly supported, end of story.
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Visual Studio does have a really nice C++ debugger - one would imagine the C++ debugging capabilities should translate to Rust.
> Because it takes time.
That's an excuse, not the reason.
IntelliJ RustRover has been around for years.
Similarly, VS Code has had Rust plugins written by the community in their spare time years ago.
> Even with coding agents
Because of coding agents? :D
Microsoft doesn’t use Visual Studio internally for many of its products such as Windows.
This is a shocking news to me. Can you elaborate with sources?
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Given how long it took visual studio to get 64bit support, I wouldn't hold your breath!
( Edit: I should probably inform the layperson: It was Visual Studio 2022 )
It's only tier-1 for internal Microsoft use.
And for all we know, it might be officially supported in their internal builds of Visual Studio.
Because it is already supported in VS Code.
I don't think this is a hot take, but I'm predicting Microsoft will gradually phase out Visual Studio in favor of VS Code.
Agreed but I think you need to pry Visual Studio from VB.NET developers' cold dead hands.
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It is, with extensions (using rust-analyzer of course). I don't know what's the status inside Microsoft.
This makes strategic sense in multiple ways:
1. Rust's memory safety design will help Microsoft improve a gigantic portfolios of products that have been known to have lots of CVEs and 70% of them are memory safety issues, according to Azure CTO Mark Russinovich's talk at RustCon last year.[1]
2. Windows 11's forceful push to retire millions of legacy PC hardware by putting Windows 10 EOL last October was absurd for millions of consumers and businesses. I was literrally helping a S&B having to replace the entire fleet of working PCs simply because Windows 10 of EOL and Windows 11 refused to run on those legacy hardware. Quite honestly those PCs ran just fine! That's why some has been migrated to Linux, in particular to Google's ChromeOS Flex.[2]
3. RAM shortage due to AI boom exhausted the memory chip manufacturers' production pipepline for at least the next 5 years. This means the mainstream PCs sold today will actually have a diminishing RAM size configurations than last year's in order for the PC manufacturers to not drastically raise the product price (or raise prices drastically for high RAM configurations like Apple does). This requires the Windows 11 operating system to be more conservative about RAM usage, Rust can be a part of that.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDtMuS7BExE
[2] https://chromeos.google/products/chromeos-flex/
Most of Windows is written in C and C++. How would Rust help to reduce RAM usage?
I'm quite skeptical of rust usage leading to anything that helps consumers. Microsoft managed to add arbitrary code execution to Notepad. And it all points to a total disregard of the end-user, not lack of talent or capacity.
You write as though this was an intentional feature. Not, it was a CVE. I had to Google about it. For anyone else who didn't know about this CVE: "Microsoft added Markdown (.md) support and interactive hyperlink parsing to the modern Windows 11 version of Notepad. Improper validation of links meant that clicking a crafted hyperlink inside a Markdown file could cause Notepad to launch unverified protocol handlers without proper warnings." This CVE has already been patched.
I don't understand this part. Are you trying to say that because they had a security flaw in a new feature that this demonstrates "total disregard of the end-user"? It seems like quite a reach.
At least 67% of your comment has nothing to do with this article.
Aight! Fable 5.1 summary says this is about Microsoft built, self-hosts, and runs in production a proprietary-backend codegen for rustc that bypasses LLVM on Windows. The vehicle is rustc_codegen_utc, an alternative rustc backend in the same family as the LLVM, GCC, and Cranelift backends, wired to the MSVC backend ("UTC").
How does Rust help with 2 at all? IIUC the main requirements were not memory or performance related but TPM and instruction set minimums.
> Windows 11 refused to run on those legacy hardware
What legacy hardware was this?
So when will we get tier 1 debugging support in Visual Studio?
IDK about "tier 1" but I'll note I've used VS for debugging and profiling Rust binaries. I even wrote a tool to auto-generate a wrapper .sln so I can easily launch from VS: https://github.com/MaulingMonkey/cargo-vs
The main pain point IME was poor debugger visualizers for standard containers and enums. I fixed some of that for the standard containers by writing some natvis files for std: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues?q=state%3Aclosed%20... . Admittedly, they broke a few times. They also weren't automatically included in the pdbs, so I wrote a crate for that: https://github.com/MaulingMonkey/natvis-pdbs . And then someone crated and stabilized #[debugger_visualizer] for rust itself, which can do the same job: https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/attributes/debugger.html .
(...I should check on enum visualization, but I suspect it's still poor.)
Optimistic to assume that modern day programmers even know what a debugger is, or if they do, consider it as anything else than some weird ancient shibboleth only used by the greybeards ;)
The greybeards rarely used debuggers, and then only to see the stack trace of a core file. They found printf better.
I can't find my copy of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Practice_of_Programming but that is what I recall it says. Those authors are the best known greybeards.
To be fair, even before LLMs could spot my bugs in an instant I really only regularly used debuggers in C because it can't display arbitrary types in debug print statements.
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Debugger MCP better
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You have it already on VSCode, which isn't quite the same, however nowadays it is an open question which one is more relevant for Microsoft's management, especially given that VS isn't cross platform (see Azure), and is stuck with WPF/.NET Framework.
println!() already works, who needs more than that?
Kidding aside, VS Code has excellent debugging support already. Unless you need to share your Rust code base with a legacy C/C++ code base, I don't think VS is the best environment for Rust programming.
There are good use cases for staying within full-fat VS's capability set (drivers, among other things), but I don't think Microsoft needs to add Rust to VS in this much of a hurry.
I'd also love to see MS sponsoring Windows support for a modern linker like mold or wild.
lld-link is already a big step up from link.exe. Although the latter has incremental linking, which none of the Unix-like linkers have.
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Works already in Visual Studio Code, even seamlessly between C++ and Rust
RustRover, my friend.
I thought rover forced you to use their horrible new UI?
u dont debug rust mate if it compiles it works
I've been writing Rust professionally for the last 5 years (where my first decade of professional experience started in frontend, then moved down the stack TypeScript/Node, Go, C# and so on).
From the perspective of high level application development, I can't see a technical use case for a language other than Rust these days. If wasm worked (and MacOS/Windows/Android/iOS native UI support existed), I would write my backends and frontends exclusively in Rust.
From a low level programming perspective, the high performance of Rust combined with the self-describing type system makes it very ergonomic to use (trying to figure out how a C function signature translates to behavior is a frustrating experience for me).
The thing I have been most saddened about is the lack of professional opportunities for Rust, particularly in Sydney (where I live). I considered moving to the US for the higher salaries and access to Rust roles but recently landed a role here.
What is wrong with C# and WinForms/WPF? It is an excellent platform to write enterprise desktop apps. Also, developer efficiency is way higher in C# compared to Rust. The language is much simpler, and the VM supports garbage collection. Again: For enterprise apps this is a big win.
> From the perspective of high level application development, I can't see a technical use case for a language other than Rust.
Bit of a red flag if you really can't.
I know, haha. It's a bit of an absolute statement but as far as all of the features I look for in the context of creating scalable and maintainable software (especially in the age of agent-assisted coding) - Rust has been the most productive, least frustrating language I have worked with.
It's basically TypeScript but runtime exceptions are impossible. If it compiles, it works - so the _only_ thing you worry about is how you organised your code (abstractions, domains, etc) and if the logic is correct.
It saves a lot of time in PR reviews because you only really complain about logic or code organization.
By contrast, C#, Go, Java all have runtime exceptions for things like null pointers and race conditions. That means, when reviewing code, you have to be on the lookout for those things in addition to the logic and structure.
On the single threaded side, TypeScript is great, but JavaScript runtime performance and resource utilization is obscene. With Rust basically being TypeScript but without those limitations (and also natively supporting more frontend frameworks without transpilers), what is the use case for TypeScript (other than legacy software already being written in JavaScript or TypeScript)?
You can write Rust with your eyes closed and it'll probably work.
Interesting perspective. I toyed with rust a bit from the perspective of a c# background (and a bit of java, php, classic asp, JavaScript, typescript, etc) .
I like rust, but I've come to still prefer c#'s object oriented features. Perhaps it's my naivety, but I've found c# AOT compilation to do plenty of trimming and startup performance optimization that I don't see it as a bad option.
Have you made a personal comparison on Rust vs Object Oriented Languages like c#?
From a software design standpoint, it certainly takes some adjustment going from OOP to the compositional architecture and structural trait system used by Rust, but it's not that big a shift.
The biggest downsides are the poor standard library that ships with Rust and the non prescriptive project structure which puts too much authority on the writer to figure out.
The biggest wins are that runtime exceptions and concurrency bugs are impossible. So you can basically write Rust with your eyes closed and, if it compiles, it's probably right.
Due to the high level of trust the compiler gives you, PR reviews (and reviewing AI generated code) is limited to design decisions and logic implementations.
I only really think about architectural decisions, like "this code belongs to X domain, so I should put it in X crate" or "my project should use a hexagonal architecture, does this change violate that? Should I create a package/crate to contain this logic?"
If you don't care about optimisations, a naive implementation in Rust will effortlessly outperform C# and use orders of magnitude less resources, but optionally, the pay off for optimisation is high.
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If wasm worked is a pretty big caveat still. DOM APIs are still significantly slower in rust using wasm than pure js last I checked.
Yes, that contributes to the "if it actually worked" sentiment.
It doesn't have to be slow, if the browser exposed C-like ABI for DOM access and web APIs like LocalStorage, the FileSystem API, ServiceWorker, etc - Rust bindings can be made and that boundary could be well optimised.
All we need is;
<script type="application/wasm" src="./main.wasm"></script>
The rest is just browser optimisations.
Good news they adopted Rust as Tier-1 language. I hope their Weather app stop consuming more than 1GB RAM https://www.notebookcheck.net/Windows-11-s-built-in-Weather-...
I feel like the weather app makes a lot of sense from a corporate politics point of view.
A 1mb weather app would have a significantly less impressive pie chart associated with it come "here are our improvements" presentation.
Also if times get tough and you're told to reduce headcount by 10%, who do you want to get rid of. Sally who knows the USB driver end to end or Todd who wrote the bloated 1gb weather app. (Don't feel bad for Todd, he knew what he was getting himself into.)
Also, showing the weather is a great excuse to ask permissions for the user location.
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Did Todd just know or did his PO tell him to add telemetry tool number 24 while he was protesting and begged to be allowed to migrate to a newer rendering library but got shot down promptly because "KPI line must go up"? :)
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Based on windows bloat Sally got fired because she was an old timer and cost to much so all the Sally's are gone and they're all Todd's now and windows is an unstable bloated mess.
The corporate dilemma between "I hired some less competent engineers and they're dragging the team down" and "I hired only highly capable engineers and now I have to give 10% of them bad reviews in stack ranking and later let them go"
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Not to mention, they have 1 GB of headroom in their back pocket if/when they need to make Windows more efficient. Quick rewrite of that app or just scrap it and they've saved months of optimization.
I think it's less about pie charts and more that weather apps can be very eyecandy-heavy. This sort of marketing works well for both consumers and board members.
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Sally, obviously. Todd is much more likely to have a perfect haircut and immaculate fluency in corpotalk
In this day and age, both Sally and Todd are expendable. Both have been silently training their replacement by feeding the data models.
Replaced by LLM and an offshore contractor. CaPiTaLiSm, right?
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Calling the Weather app an 'app' is doing all the Win32, WPF, WinForms and WinUI developers a huge disservice.
It is essentially an entire Chromium instance around msn.com/weather.
Outlook, Teams, and other all show up as msedgewebview2.exe, so you also don't know which app is consuming gigs of memory doing nothing.
That is how apps work in 2016 onwards (the last decade).
The problem is the Webview2 prevalence, and note many Rust projects love their webviews as well.
Not the ones made with iced <3
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That's less because of what it's implemented in - and more to do with all the tracking and libraries they want to reuse...
BigCo apps will take up lots of space and memory for BigCo reasons - obviously less if it's in Rust vs Go vs Python, but you could easily write Go apps that use far less memory than Rust apps written at BigCo due to BigCo reasons.
It's just not really that much of a priority for them to have their weather app use less than 1GB of memory. It's a far bigger priority for someone to insist that somebody else uses some bloated framework so they can get promoted.
I've been having _a lot of fun_ writing Go apps that don't allocate anything and that use small, preallocated buffers to stream through requests/etc. Basically TigerStyle for Go. I don't use arenas, I just size everything for the worst case (or make the sizes configurable at startup) and still end up using much less memory.
This is really only possible because I told Fable to build the underlying allocation-free HTTP, JSON, etc libraries and consequently I'm not building anything serious yet (although the libraries are well-tested using pre-existing corpuses from reputable projects e.g. curl as well as fuzz tested).
Most "outputs" are passed as out parameters for the function to fill in, and results are Rust-like enums (a Go tagged union containing only small data). I could also have returned (T, error) but I would have to take care that the thing I pushed into the error argument doesn't allocate--not sure if I made the right decision or not, but for now it feels nice. The worst part is that I don't really have a good way to communicate detailed error information, but that hasn't bitten me yet.
This has also been a lot less effort than writing Rust, although Rust would have real checks for lifetimes and im/mutable and enum exhaustiveness and so on--so far I haven't been bitten, and I suspect things like enum exhaustiveness can be addressed via linter if necessary.
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Whether vibecoded Rust will be better than whatever they are doing now remains to be seen.
The question in terms of memory is, will vibe coded rust get around ownership issues by .clone()-ing everything.
Maybe this has changed since I wrote Rust, but that was a classic beginner fix. Just throw memory at it.
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Instead of leaking memory it'll just clone the whole heap over and over.
I seriously do not think things could be any worse.
If it's vibecoded, who GAF what language is used?
This argument applies regardless of how you feel about vibecoding. Lately people have been asking for x64 machine language and getting reasonable results.
But Tier-1 app consuming Tier-1 RAM seems officially approved.
I can't comprehend why 250 MB for a weather app on macOS is considered normal.
It won't, that 1GB+ belongs to Microsoft's advertisers and their many video ads
Reminds me of how they allow OEMs to install bloatware through Windows update now. I believe LG did something that leads to various app installs when you connect their monitors via HDMI.
And that the calculator does not take 5 seconds to load
are they launching for the graphics in the background the whole MS Office and PowerPoint?
If they can't do it with infinity budget and infinity AI, they're not going to be able to do it with that plus Rust.
Hilarious that the article is like "Apple's weather app is only 200MB!"
The day that OS vendors started abandoning native apps was a hilarious day.
Does it matter when one embeds web browser into their app?
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From the linked Zulip thread (https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/channel/131828-t-com...):
> We are running different workloads including rustc perf suite. In general the runtime performance is on par with llvm.
Not what I would've expected!
I don't know why I feel the entire software world is going to switch to Rust (more than the others), C++, and Assembly soon.
Especially after the successful Bun 1.4 runtime migration to Rust.
I guess the big question is whether they are going to open up rustc_codegen_utc for use outside of Microsoft?
They responded in the Zulip threads that yes, this is the plan, although they don't know if and what things will be open-source yet.
The best C++ interop is just writing C++. Anything else is just wasting time and energy.
Is Microsoft still trying to embrace, extend, extinguish Netscape after all those years? :-)
You’ll know when they publish Visual R++ or Rust.NET.
Don't forget about R#
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you jest but F# already does the ocamlness of Rust, no? and you don't need a borrow checker.
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What a cursed comment haha
I guess we should watch for contributions to Servo
I haven't made a full switch yet, at this point I'm experimenting more heavily in Rust.
First I built a wrapper for a very simple text editor based on KDEs KTextEditor (basically bindings around Qt C++) then a wasm wrapper around Canvas/WebGL for a basic 2d display list that currently supports sprites and gradient masking.
So far I've been getting away with it just as pure vibe code.
However, the bulk of my primary application is written in Typescript (both client, server and workers). I watched a recent podcast with Anders Hejlsberg (creator of C# and Typescript) where he made a strong argument for why they chose Go over Rust for the updated Typescript compiler. Due to similarities between Typescript and Go, partially based around them both being GC languages, it was just a better fit for a port.
So I am on the fence a bit here but still leaning towards Rust. I'm going to see how far I can push my two personal experiments. I'd really like to get the significant majority of the code I write into two languages (Typescript for anything web-ish and Rust for everything server-ish).
Microsoft is a tier-0 company.
In my time in VC++ and .NET teams, there was only one 1st tier language at MS. It was the one that existed to be whatever Windows wanted - VC++. I've not been there for about 10 years but I haven't heard that anything changed and the blog pretty much confirms that sentiment.
My advice to the Rust team: you're going to get shoved so I hope you're good at shoving back. At least you don't have to worry about stevesi (unless you're with a16z or have kids).
But which GUI toolkit will they use for all their new rust applications?
WinUI (3) via Windows Reactor
Visual Rust sounds like a defect but I'm looking forward to it.
What other langs do they consider tier 1? What’s in tier 2?
With certain rough edges like complex traits and Async aside, rust is an S-tier lang in several domains. Of interest:
It's not a memory-safety one-trick pony; it's a well-rounded lang which has learned from its predecessors.
Yeah I'd written some rust ~ 10 years ago when the language was very different and that led me to believe that it was a 'great within it's niche' sort of thing for a long time, but after spending the last couple of years with it as a daily driver I think it's a pretty great general-purpose language.
The one really common gotcha with rust is that when trying to write concurrent code, newbies tend to throw Arc<RwLock<T>> goo around everywhere, and they end up with the world's shittiest garbage collector.
jdcasale you are right that Arc<RwLock<T>> is a code smell but I would take that a bit further that locking immutable data is even more of a smell. The real bad guy in this case is the RwLock not Arc. For anything that you hydrated once and never mutate you do not need the RwLock. Arc just clones the pointer so it is safe to share for concurrent reads so something like Arc<T> is fine and if you need initialization locking then LazyLock<Arc<T>> lets you lock the initialization but then everything else is just a pointer copy.
I hit this recently while building a url unfurl social card renderer for a project which ended up being something like LazyLock<Arc<Database>>
Give me something like boost.multiindex for Rust, and maybe I could think of trying some experiments.
I think C++ is an excellent choice due to its volubility actually. Bc when I want safety, I mostly have it (but I have done a lot of C++, admittedly).
yeah, locks are expensive.
It is interesting to see the different patterns used due to different cases and tastes. For example, my concurrency patterns rarely use locks, and are instead usually one of:
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All those applications area sensitive to asynchronous programming.
Rust's async can be very lightweight depending on the runtime implementation. tokio and embassy are both runtimes but former is a throughput-optimized heavily multi-threaded while latter is a simple cooperative multitasking for embedded. We use both at my day job. Even 64k flash and 16k ram is enough for embassy.
Yeah, I primarily use rust because it's got algebraic data types, pattern matching, and cargo.
If ocaml had a cargo like experience, then I would migrate there.
I've said for a while that the main reason Rust is so popular is that it has a lot of effort put into the developer experience, with the low-level safety honestly not being all that important to a large portion of the programmers who would be fine with a garbage collector. I used to think that maybe a "Rust with garbage collector" would come along, but at this point it honestly seems more likely that an optional garbage collector would be added to Rust (probably with just the primitives in std and leaving it up to libraries to provide a more full experience, like with async runtimes).
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Oh, its good at doing desktop applications these days? Which GUI libraries are good these days? Some native win32 binding? Are there good equivalents for Qt?
I'm interested in getting back to native application development; the job is on Electron right now and it's… meh.
Honestly, the only domains that I think rust isn't suitable for are:
* rapid-prototyping, where javascript and python are still top-tier
* adding scriptability to existing programs, where lua and scheme (and python) are popular
* Server-side API implementation (rust is usable here, but I think Go fits the slot better)
Rapid prototyping is almost a meme at this point. If you are hand rolling code old school, you will waste more time shoehorning JavaScript and python semantics into rust code and end up with worse quality that takes more time rather than writing it from rust.
People did this a lot when rust was not as popular but there are plenty of very good rust programmers now who understand the language and can make programs that are significantly more performance for a marginal development cost.
Script ability can also be done in rust, Notably Zed (rust ide/vscode whatevers) is written in rust, and all the plugins are compiled to WASM, sandboxed and loaded.
Go is pretty nice for server-side API but if your application share types between boundries then rust is better
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Rust is great for rapid protoyping, IMO. Or, at least the subset of rapid prototyping that involves massive rewrites to try out different approaches. Rust has a saying "if it compiles, it works", the compiler really ensures that you don't miss something when doing that rewrite.
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My employer company go through JavaScript, Java, Golang and at the end landed on Rust for srver side and don't want to change anything. Everything is Rust now, regardless of traffic.
I don't know why you think it's only usable but this is your right.
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GPU programming?
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Calculate ackermann(4,4), make no mistakes.
It’s interesting how things have changed in 25 years. Around 2001, Microsoft was crusading against open source and facing an antitrust lawsuit with Netscape.
Now 25 years later, MS runs its cloud businesses with Linux, and their development in Rust.
That grin will soon be wiped off their faces when Linux Mint takes over the desktop and wipes another one or two Trillion dollars off their market cap.
They've changed business model from selling software (windows, office, terminal server) to selling services (cloud services, user surveillance/exfil, advertising). The OS is just a vehicle to drive those service streams: maybe it's even a loss leader?
New CEOs can do that to a company.
I remember an other 1 tier language ms once had. Anyone remember Visual-J? On the other hand if we could code in rust and get windows.forms as a ui it might make sense. MS is burning UI layer faster than one can train on
While literally true, the phrasing of this title will certainly and (IMO) purposefully confuse some headline scanners vs: “Rust Is a Tier-1 Language at Microsoft”.
Fable migrated a Go/Wails project for me to Rust/GPUI and it's so much faster, there is the possibility of Rust to gobble up many more projects.
How the open source turn tables have open source turned
A MSVC-backend? At this time of year! At this time of day! In this part of the country! Localized entirely within Microsoft?!?
Yes.
May I see it?
No.
Site down, maybe they need port it to use Rust...
They use wordpress
What is wrong with wordpress exactly?
there are a lot of really bad plugins that are used. Also there are a lot of really bad admins who have out of date versions that are misconfigured.
Matt Mullenweg
wordpress
A lot of infrastructure is going to be ported to Rust.
It's fantastic for websites and servers, and LLMs are very good at generating it.
The primary downside of Rust is the long compile times, especially with macros (serde, etc.) If that can be fixed, it will be sublime.
I like Rust a lot but I'm not sure it would come very high up my list for web applications.
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First compile. Every another will be significantly faster since compiler is incremental
So, Rust.NET?
VisualRust.NET Copilot
The text is mostly about rustc_codegen_utc; maybe this should be reflected in the title?
Also the use of italics there is rather jarring.
It’s cool to see rust join C++, C#, and typescript as primary engineering languages. Confusingly there are no tier 2 or 3 languages, just tier 1 at Microsoft
I'm wondering how they deal with long compilation times
Being technically approved by Microsoft is not a proof of quality...
It could as well be the opposite, but Rust does not need a proof of quality today, certainly not from Microsoft. Still, becoming Tier 1 in major trillion-dollar corporations (Microsoft, Meta, Amazon, and I know Google also has efforts in that direction) is something.
Google announced that Android contains 5 million lines of Rust last year; sounds Tier-1 to me.
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I love how World of Warcraft "gear tier" jargon has expanded into the rest of the world. Pre-Y2K, the pseudo-formal usage of "tier-N" wasn't widespread in the US.
In World of Warcraft, gear tier is an ordinal representing the raid tier the gear was made accessible in, not an indication of its importance/power.
We don't learn Rust at school at all(both undergratuate and gratuate student)
i've never seen such a damning indictment of a language.
started learning rust using the rust programming language book last month!
NT kernel rewrite when?
As much as I like Rust. Still sad that F# didn't get this much support from their own mother.
ermm... which are the rust-native libs which enable winrt3.0 native apps?
Do you mean winui3?
windows-rs
winui3, yes. but afaik windows-rs is the generic crate, right? not something ms released as rust-first approach to winui3?
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Link doesn’t work.
What’s a Tier 1 language?
Tier 1 is the summit of summits - the summum bonum of languages, the highest order to which a language can aspire. Very few ever attain it. Non multa, sed multum: not many, but only those of extraordinary quality. Most languages remain forever in Tier 3, never passing beyond its gates. Of these, scarcely 1% ascend to Tier 2. And from that already distinguished company, a mere 0.1% possess the refinement, depth, and excellence required to cross the final threshold into Tier 1.
Consider what that means: Tier 1 represents roughly the top 0.001% of languages. Pauci sed electi - few, but chosen. The crème de la crème. The aristocracy of languages. Primus inter pares, yet standing at the very edge of what programming language greatness can be.
Ad astra per aspera. Through hardship, to the stars. Tier 1 is not merely another rank: it is the ultima Thule, the farthest frontier, the crown, the apotheosis.
The answer I deserved!
(Link worked for me ...)
This “Tier-1 language” engineering status for Rust means giving internal teams a paved path from local development to production: secure toolchain builds, productive developer tooling, quality workflows, deep platform integration, and compliance with the SDL requirements Microsoft software must meet.
Specifically, it joins a list of existing Tier 1 languages (C++, C#, and TypeScript), as "one of the best-supported languages for internal development at Microsoft"
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It means it's about as good as C++ ;)
Yes, about as good as a language that is 40 years old, and was also (like Rust) 10 years old when becoming Tier 1 inside Microsoft, while there were far less alternatives.
Seems pretty good to me ;)
(I know you're joking).
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It means a language for the very elite special force unit. In MSFT, that means the Ads teams will be able to serve you Ads in excel very quickly. /s
… and they proved you can still write tier-10 software with it
LOL!
So do we observe overall Microsoft software quality improvement so far?
VisualRust#
who cares. AI will translate brain waves to binary within 5 years.
It is a decompiled language.
This thread deserves a meme
If I were the Rust foundation I'd be keeping this to myself right now.
Why?
does it mean there is a rust.net?
There is a rustc_codegen_clr which transpiles to .NET
https://github.com/fractalfir/rustc_codegen_clr
> This project is still early in its developement. Bugs, crashes and miscompilations are expected. DO NOT USE IT FOR ANYTHING SERIOUS.
how can one claim it is tier-1?
Also random student, nothing official from Microsoft.
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Just had a PTSD flashback...
The year was 2002, VB6 had just been retired for VB.NET which had 0 backward compatibility.
And then we all became Flash/AS3 developers.
The End
Cold Fusion 1,000 mile gaze says hello
Waiting for the deluge of Rust cultists....
Now their broken slop code is at least memory safe.
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Rust is now in the Top Ten of TIOBE. Now, TIOBE sucks, but I found that as a general trend plotted over years, it is not that bad. So Rust is definitely having solid demonstrated use cases in the "real" world.
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Yet another good reason for me to steer clear of the language.
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Congrats to the folks involved!
Having previously led Rust at Google, I remember several great cross-company discussions with Microsoft engineers on interop.
Companies with massive C++ codebases use Rust as a pragmatic hedge. C++ as we know it is unlikely to ever become fully memory safe, and unlike C++ standard committee voices who dispute the urgency, major industry players need actionable solutions today.
Because these existing codebases are so vast, Rust must have a viable C++ interop story. However, defining what "good interop" means remains tricky. C++ routinely tolerates aliasing and relies on patterns that violate Rust's aliasing rules. Shared backend infrastructure (like connecting rustc directly to MSVC backends) helps with ABI layout, cross-language inlining, and toolchain parity, but it doesn't solve the core type system divergence.
The fundamental obstacle is type systems:
* Boundaries remain unsafe: Compilers cannot statically verify C++ safety invariants. Crossing the boundary stays in unsafe territory.
* Idiomatic C++ structures often cannot map cleanly into Rust idioms. This forces developers into onerous safety comments or heavy wrapper layers. At some point, application writers will consider serialization / in-process RPC or a full rewrite as a cheaper or cleaner option of getting interop.
Bridging this gap on the ABI level is pragmatic, but pushing Rust's semantics to accommodate C++ edge cases risks compromising "pure Rust" goals. I doubt the broader Rust community will favor complicating Rust's safety model just to smooth over legacy C++ patterns.
To be clear: practical interop is a worthwhile investment, but "seamless interop" needs serious qualification. It will always have hard limits. There will always be friction at the boundary and it will always be a tough sell.
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crazy i like that
I hope this kind of thing means Rust stops making so many rapid breaking changes in th compiler. I've tried it twice, once in early 2021 once 2025. Both times I tried to compile a few random projects I found on the web, stuff like a wordpress fanfic scraper, a software defined radio program, etc.
In 2021 my linux distro I was using had just been released 3 months prior but it's rustc already could not compile 2 of 3 projects due to the use of new features added to rustc in those 3 months. In the SDR case I knew the author and he was able to re-write it in more general rust code and it worked great. In 2025 my linux distro had been out for a couple years. None of the rust projects I tried would compile with my rustc.
Rust, in the past, seemed a very bleeding edge, move fast and break things community. I hope that with more people using it in more places the demographics change and people won't always target latest and greatest. A lifetime for the compiler of at least a few years would make it a very useable language. Adoption at microsoft might help this.
You can compile any old code with newer rustc as long as old project does not use unstable features that have changed/went away. What are you on? I recently recompiled project from 2015 with latest stable rust just fine.
All breaking changesin rust done via editions and you can mix-and-match editions.
I suspect GP is using system rustc to build random projects off of github and doesn't use one of the distros that actually updates rustc, like Fedora, SuSE or Arch.
Then the conversation is about forward compatibility, whether developers should wait X amount of time before using new std APIs or features, and whether the ease of using rustup and project expectation of it being accessible is reasonable or not.
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It sounds like you are not running into breaking changes, you are just running into projects that like to use new features that are not available in your older compiler.
Good, C# is one of the worst languages there is, hopefully they turn it in to tier 18
Sephora is tier-1 at the Clown convention
This is great! Hope this trend will continue in the future; using a memory-safe language should be a top priority imo in context of the coming rogue AI swarms.
M$ choosing Rust might be the strongest argument for picking Go instead
They strike different balances.
Rust is absolute performance, similar to C++. Go is deliver fast and get a very good performance to effort ratio.
It was meant as sarcasm, but judging by the downvotes, I clearly didn’t land it :)
You gotta have balls or be receiving tons of money to publicly celebrate the sloppiest software company of the decade making your programming language Tier 1 internally.
Probably the fact they're a $3.7tn company has something to do with it.
We may never actually reach Extinguish. That won't be by Microsoft's choice, though.