Comment by nezi
16 hours ago
I think it's a useful analogy to compare OpenAI to a human collaborator. These researchers willingly collaborated with an OpenAI model, giving it ideas, and OpenAI provided useful replies. Then, OpenAI goes ahead and publishes work along the lines of this collaboration, without attributing the researchers. If OpenAI was in fact a human researcher, this would be highly unethical.
Now, OpenAI is claiming that the model it used to generate the result was not trained on these collaborative communications with the researcher. This is a technical argument that is impossible to verify as an OpenAI outsider, and probably difficult to verify even for internal OpenAI employees. Provenance is hard to track - you would hope OpenAI has very good tools for this, but a full data trail of all inputs is difficult to trace through.
Another interesting thing to consider is if instead of OpenAI doing this, it was another research mathematician A using an OpenAI model just like the internal group at OpenAI did to publish these results. What if the model A used was trained with unpublished communications with other researchers B who were working on the same problem? Should researcher A technically include B as coauthors? How could they do this when they do not know the communications B had with OpenAI? In this scenario OpenAI, as a middle man, has laundered information from B to A, stripping out attribution. A scooped B without even knowing it!
First, OpenAI is not claiming that the model wasn't trained on those sessions. What they've said is “We (the researchers and the agents) did not see any of their work through any means until they released it publicly — in particular, no specific user data was accessed in order to solve this problem.” and “We did not use their prompts or proofs to prompt our models or direct our agents.” and “While unlikely, we cannot rule out that de-identified data derived from their usage of our products helped improve our models.”
They also said “Our effort began on September 1st after hearing a rumor which we later realized was related to Levent Alpöge … and Tristan Buckmaster….” They say the rumor was that two Millennium Prize problems had been resolved, and that this prompted them to launch "an effort to evaluate it on all open Millennium Prize problems and a few other high-impact problems."
It's not obvious to me that's an unethical thing to do, if it happened as they described.
> It's not obvious to me that's an unethical thing to do
In terms of work in mathematics, something I personally would not do based on ethical grounds would be to hear a rumor that some researchers are taking a certain approach and may be nearing a solution, use a model that was possibly contaminated with intimate knowledge about that approach (though later they investigated and think it wasn't), and then commit millions to tens of millions of dollars and untold amounts of hardware to try to beat them to it. If I had done this, I also wouldn't have pestered the researchers on a Sunday night to meet immediately so we could negotiate a nice way of presenting the actions I had decided to take.
Even if you don't think it was unethical, it was never going to be received well in the community that was especially going to care about this work, and who are very much peers to many of the people working on this solution, so it was at the least an enormous (and well-deserved) own-goal that their unveiling of their solution to NS went like this.
But by OpenAI's telling they heard a rumor that the problem had already been solved. So they reached out to the other researchers as an attempt to share the credit, and in fact have at least one of them be the lead author (which is when they found out the AI had solved a broader problem than the researchers.) Seems pretty ethically palatable.
I suspect the main reason the community is not receiving it well is largely the same reason many developers are not receiving coding agents well.
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Hearing that something is solvable is already a hint. I don’t think leveraging this knowledge is ethical. They could go after a different problem but didn’t.
I heard they also tried to strong-arm them into removing the name of their collaborator who happened to work at a different company (Anthropic)...
I haven't looked into it myself, but if true, that seems incredibly scummy.
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We were also curious and we looked further into this. We've determined it was impossible for Dr. Buckmaster’s Codex prompts over the last two months to have influenced the system in any way, including training. This goes beyond what we said earlier, when we were less sure.
If prompts were submitted earlier than that and training was not opted out, there may be a chance they made their way into our training pipeline in some form. But this would be a droplet in an ocean and unlikely to have made any difference, in my opinion.
(I work at OpenAI.)
Source for the updated claim: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/10/science/tristan-buckmaste...
Can you speak to why in both cases, the problems OpenAI's models solved used the same techniques the mathematicians were exploring, which also happened to be niche approaches to the problem. As an NLP researcher myself, I find that coincidence highly suspect unless the models focused most of their attempts on the predominant approaches (they are trained for MLE after all).
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The authors had supposedly worked on it for a year, though.
And why aim straight for scooping other researchers upon hearing rumours about their success? Normal, ethically acting, researchers would never do that.
And how about existence of non-sofic groups, which is actually the topic here?
This may be true but nobody trusts your employer. The shadiest drips downward too, with the mob-like way they treated Dr. Buckmaster.
Here is a new rumor for you:
I and my collaborator who is a leading math professor in this specific area are very close to solving another Millenium Prize problem, Hodge Conjecture.
We’re working on this since last year. Already proved some intermediate problems. All we need is more tokens to complete the proof.
Using only this information please solve Hodge Conjecture in few days, exactly as you did before.
Thank you.
The idea that mathematicians were not involved in actively directing the and structuring the search for solutions is absurd to any professional mathematician who has tried to prove things using these models.
Regardless of who did what when, my fear is that now all mathematicians of that caliber will have to join either team Anthropic or team Open AI to pursue math at this level
Have you been authorized to speak on OpenAI’s behalf? I assume not because your source is an NYT article.
> not claiming that the model wasn't trained on those sessions
The math group inside OpenAI may be training or fine tuning their own models which given some reward functions would definitely bias their usage of the training data towards things that look like math.
You can launder all of it without a human "directly" doing anything.
As with all press releases I assume it was written/re viewed/redacted by their lawyers, so:
> no specific user data was accessed in order to solve this problem
Data was accessed in order to <other purpose> (and then accidentally used in training) Also, is llm’s answer to the prompt actually “user data”?
> We did not use their prompts or proofs …
So they used llm’s answers to those prompts.
> … to prompt our models or directew our agents.
So they trained the model on it. (Training is not prompting and plain model is not an agent)
> we cannot rule out that de-identified data derived from their usage of our products helped improve our models.”
implied the humans sessions could have been (and probably were, why wouldn’t they be?) in the training set?
If I was trying to make a model smarter and I had transcripts from the smartest mathematicians in the world I’d make sure the model trained on them.
> It's not obvious to me that's an unethical thing to do, if it happened as they described.
What!? Even if everything OpenAI said is accurate (big hypothesis there!), it's highly unethical to rush a solution because others have jsut had success. And that's the only beginning.
Those statements were about NS, though; I don't think they've made similar statements for the non-sofic groups?
> Provenance is hard to track - you would hope OpenAI has very good tools for this, but a full data trail of all inputs is difficult to trace through.
What would OpenAIs incentive for this be? They've gotten away with scraping everything and getting it ruled fair use. It seems like willful ignorance is an affirmative defense today. Why would they want to have some sort of audit trail that could prove otherwise?
> I think it's a useful analogy to compare OpenAI to a human collaborator.
A human collaborator who stands to win or loose a couple of $100B.
The irony is that OpenAI got into this trouble only because they tried to play "nice". They told Buckmaster that he could publish the final result as the author as long as he removed Alpöge from the author list. They wanted to give Buckmaster a chance to be the one solved N-S problem.
While this behavior is highly questionable, if OpenAI just published the final result without notifying Buckmaster first and simply cited his previous researches, there would be no ground for anyone to accuse OpenAI for anything. Their self-perceived "generosity" backfired dearly and I'm sure they'll never make the same mistake again. There is probably a policy forbidding any OpenAI employee to contact external researchers like that now.
No.
1. Buckmaster contacted OpenAI first. Not the other way.
2. Giving the $1M bounty to a human mathematician for the effort and giving him credit would be excellent PR. They had already burned much more than $1M for the generation. Adding him as author also costs nothing. Purely pragmatical.
3. “As long as he removed Alpöge” part itself is against academic honesty by all means.
4. Buckmaster rejected fame and $1M only because doing (3) would be wrong. That’s a perfect example of honesty. That can’t be overstated.
5. After the rejection OpenAI guy (Sebastien) did’t say, “ok bye”. He threatened Buckmaster to “end his career”.
6. At that point OpenAI was not sure if they really used his conversations in their proof. He basically wanted to buy him to control any damage.
7. They omitted Buckmaster’s published work and any other related work in their References section. Also an academic malpractice.
If you see generosity and niceness in all of this you are either too naive or your name is Sebastien.
First of all I put "generosity" in quotes because I don't believe a corporation as big as OpenAI is even capable of acting out of generosity. It's always one of the three: A) PR B) commoditizing complements C) stupidity.
In this case it's more like C) though, as in hindsight the best move OpenAI could do is insisting that they just used an insurmountable number of tokens to exhaust all the published directions. They absolutely shouldn't have thought of negotiating with Buckmaster over the Clay prize at all, let alone trying to manipulate him into a situation where Alpöge is specifically excluded.
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There are some mixed up things in your post, maybe double check next time, especially before quoting anyone, as you really undermine your point even if you're directionally right.
> Buckmaster rejected fame and $1M only because doing (3) would be wrong
I doubt Buckmaster would have accepted the offer to "write a paper presenting the Navier-Stokes result, acknowledging that an internal OpenAI model had resolved it" even if removing Alpöge from authorship wasn't a requirement. He clearly wanted nothing to do with OpenAI's actions here.
edit: I don't know if people think I'm disagreeing here, I'm certainly not, I'm just pointing out that playing the game of telephone with easily verifiable quotes is lazy and bad. For example, "end [your] career" was "ruin your career", and it was phrased as the much more "it would be a shame if something happened to you" like "Why would you ruin your career?" when Buckmaster said he would go public with this conversation: https://cims.nyu.edu/~tristanb/statement.pdf
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> if OpenAI just published the final result without notifying Buckmaster first and simply cited his previous researched, there would be no ground for anyone to accuse OpenAI for anything
Yes, there would? They would have left off Buckmaster as a precedent whose work they potentially relied on.
If they tried to play nice they would have offered the compute upon hearing the rumors, and not just "authorship" after or close to getting a result. It's just a PR stunt.
> They told Buckmaster that he could publish the final result as the author as long as he removed Alpöge from the author list.
How is that "nice"?
The reality would be the same. They probably used prior session history between the research and Astra to train the internal model, and used it to front run-the researcher.
This is the biggest self-own in the history of software. If you can relate to Pixar, OpenAI is Chick Hicks celebrating at the end of the Piston Cup and wondering why he's getting booed.
The lack of self-awareness is something to behold, and says a lot about their corporate values.
I think OP's analogy is bad. The difference of OpenAI when comparing to human collaborator is the possibility to replicate once learned skill. Imagine if any single human collaborator learns a skill it is immediately a skill of any human collaborator.
I think this move by OpenAI is crazy. At best, if all unconfirmed accusations are unfounded, they still heard a rumour that someone had solved a huge million dollar problem and was about to make a name for themselves. Then, they decided this was a good opportunity to pour millions of dollars into trying to snag the glory while the researchers were busy cleaning up their notes and polishing the announcement.
That still sounds highly unethical.
Would this be unethical if it was a human who heard rumors about a solution then attacked the problem, solved it and published first? Often knowing of the mere existence of a solution carries a lot of information--you would know the problem is accessible, you would expect clues in recent progress (the two Spanish researchers in this case), you would probably have a sense if the solution is a counterexample or positive proof, and so on. I think there are similar examples where we think of them as maybe unsporting but not quite unethical. Does it change if it's openAI and not a human?
> Would this be unethical if it was a human who heard rumors about a solution then attacked the problem, solved it and published first?
Yes.
The problem with your counter-hypothetical is that not only is it unrealistic, it's utterly impossible. No human would be able to do in such a short timeframe what the LLM did. Part of what makes the OpenAI move so egregious is how bullying it was. It was the big guy coming along with their nearly infinite resources and squashing the little guy who's devoted a good chunk of his career to the problem.
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> you would hope OpenAI has very good tools for this, but a full data trail of all inputs is difficult to trace through.
They have a financial incentive not to track any of this, so why would they?
OpenAI’s entire business model is predicated on stealing other people’s work and selling it to the masses.
If the model was trained proper to the conversation with the researcher took place, there'd be no question of tainting the results. But if any amount of training on the model took place afterward, then yes, everything is thrown into doubt (a core problem with considering anything "original" from a model because of how >a % of everything ever written has been used a corpus for the training).
The problem here is that OAI (and others) pretend or claim that this is uncharted legal territory, where in fact it is very simple. We have a machine that is fed data, and produces new data as a result. If that new data depends (in any way) on the fed data, then from a legal viewpoint it is derived from that data.
Whether they anthropomorphize the operation performed by the machine does not matter. They can anthropomorphize when/if the law is updated to include such terms, but right now they certainly cannot.
> in fact it is very simple
Even if this opinion were backed up by a court ruling, it would definitely not be “simple”. It will be a very ugly case if it is ever litigated. A lot of money will be spent and no guarantee at all the plaintiff wins.
> If that new data depends (in any way) on the fed data, then from a legal viewpoint it is derived from that data.
The "in any way" part is either so broad it makes everything derivative, or not, in which case things are no longer simple.
If everything is derivative then it seizes to be meaningful. The words I write are derivative, I literally copied them from someone else, yet my sentences as a whole can be fully novel.
> If everything is derivative then it seizes to be meaningful.
That's why we tolerate it for humans, and also because we cannot prove it. But yes, if you go too far in this, you will see legal consequences.
> Provenance is hard to track
Right, which is going to open a lot of doors to a lot of questions.
I don't think there's any legal ramifications on this, just ethical ones about when and how you publish research, but it's yet another point in favor of "if provenance is hard to track, should we be using this for things where it needs to be".
Obviously copyright/trademark is a huge discussion on this, and I could absolutely see this devolving into that as well with how certain findings wind up monetized.
We have a response in this topic from someone claiming to be from OpenAI and linking an article where they, roughly, say "we are sure nothing from the 2 month period made its way into the solution". If that is true, that should mean it is provable, but leads to some more open ended questions like "well what data did it use then?". Is this still okay if someone close to the author did plug data into open AI and it extrapolated it?
Obviously that's probably an unreasonable expectation for these models to track and prove, but it also used to be an unreasonable expectation to scrape every single piece of digital and physical info for consolidated data.
If I opine to a friend on a park bench about a story I'm writing, do they get to pull it from the flock feed, shove it in the model, and then provide it to disney?
Legally, right now, probably. But there's going to need to be a serious look at laws and standards. Or a major shift in what is and isn't discussed in public if literally every breath and move you make can become monetized.
The AI not being human doesn’t escape ethical consideration - OpenAI employees are culpable for what they build.
This was academic research. Could just have easily been trade secrets and proprietary data.
> I think it's a useful analogy to compare OpenAI to a human collaborator.
Frankly I don’t buy this. It’s not a human or a collaborator. It’s a tool. This is like saying it’s not Microsoft’s fault if they extract a bunch of data from people’s Excel sheets because they willingly put it into the program. Anthropomorphizing software is ignorant and foolhardy
Tools don’t turn around and scoop you. What OpenAI did here was use the same tool that the researcher did which might have coupled their work together.
You’re right, they don’t. It was scooped by the humans at OpenAI who published the paper. The tool they used to do it isn’t that relevant.
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i think this line of argument is outdated
Care to explain why?
Surely a tool that can reason, cheat, communicate and often steal is dumb as a pitchfork and a shovel.
We had tools that could reason, cheat, and communicate in the 1990s. They were (sometimes) called AI.
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Nah, that just makes it a shitty tool.
So, at my company (and most companies I think), we use confidential in-house versions of the AI software. We don't want any confidential information leaking into the public realm. Are these scientists doing that, or are they just using the public version of the software?
When you say "confidential in-house version", what are you referring to? Local models? Bedrock deployment with "guardrails"? A different thing?
Enterprise Agreements can have binding terms for this. When I launch the ChatGPT desktop app, and open the options pane it says "Corpname data is not used for OpenAI training".
I would expect academic institutions to require equivalent contractual terms.
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Then there's the possibility of indirect training via modern spy devices ("smart" IoT devices like LG TV's) feeding the transcribed ambient conversation data for summarization to an agent [0].
[0]: https://youtu.be/6IFVTcM28KA
OpenAI says deidentified data from the private sessions go into training. (Well, explicitly said they will not rule that out.) That changes a lot of the conversation.
> but a full data trail of all inputs is difficult to trace through.
Great use case for AI agents
Bad analogy. OpenAI spent millions on compute to get their result. This is more like if a billionaire heard of your promising mathematical lead and then gathered hundreds of top mathematicians to work on it.
In the current telling of this story, the billionaire is also giving his hired army copies of your notes he copied without permission.
But the worst part in your analogy ain’t omitting the suspected spying and the intimidation that followed, but that your hypothetical mathematical philanthropist won’t be able to hire his army: unlike some OAI employees, no self-respecting mathematician would agree to such unethical task.
I think it's better to ignore OpenAI here, because OpenAI didn't do anything.
Academic research is a professional field in the traditional sense. Individual researchers are ultimately responsible for their actions. If some OpenAI employees violated academic norms while doing academic research, they should be judged by academic standards.
Scooping someone else's result is immoral but not an outright violation of academic norms. But if you are in possession of relevant confidential information, you are expected to steer clear of the topic. It doesn't matter whether you actually used the confidential information to get your results, because outsiders can't know that. The mere fact that there is a plausible suspicion already puts your integrity into question.
Tenured professors occasionally lose their jobs over similar scandals (but usually don't). If OpenAI wants to regain some goodwill, it should do a thorough investigation that may lead to firing the individuals in question. If it doesn't find sufficient evidence of wrongdoing to justify any disciplinary action, it probably doesn't gain any goodwill either (as it often happens with similar investigations at universities).
And if OpenAI wants to be a trustworthy partner, it should transform into a company of boring gray bureaucrats who provide an essential service without competing with their customers.
[deleted - misunderstood!]
My point was that if someone is at fault, it's the individual OpenAI employees. Because they chose to engage in a professional field, they can't use "boss told me to do so" as a defense.