Comment by verdverm
4 hours ago
> For these reasons a large share of the industry holds out against the device
This is where I stop agreeing, there are some, not large parts any more; not because they were forced to adopt it, but because it has finally become useful and an ROI. This is most evident in pull request reviews and root-cause analysis, both tasks they accel at without the generated code some people bemoan. If you aren't using it for this, you are doing a disservice to yourself and the quality of your code. Because more of industry feels this way, I do not believe the 'unfair' part (compelled to use it or lose your trade) will hold up, we want to use it because it makes us better at our trade
But hang on. None of this argument is about companies or people using AI being unfair in their practices. It is about companies and people training models and building AI products being unfair in their practice. (By forcing others to choose between adopting unscrupulous practices or dying.)
I don't think I said anything about people using ai being unfair in their practices, the unfair part being that people are forced to adopt products they find unscrupulous. It's hard to argue you find a thing "unscrupulous" (1934 case) when you use it while also liking the outcomes.
> It is about companies and people training models and building AI products being unfair in their practice.
Khan's argument is tied to an "unfair" definition in a 1934 law, not the colloquial usage today about unfair around copyright usage, which is also debated. The "unfair" there is about any activity which leads into a spiral of decreasing public good. The dark patterns of social media are another place we ought to use this law to hold companies and execs accountable. It's "unfair" because others feel compelled to adopt the practice or lose their business. The News Media industry is another example where this has played out. It is arguable that developers feel "unfairly" compelled to adopt Ai or lose their trade. Certainly many in the field have openly expressed this anxiety. While not exactly the same situation as the case (companies in competition with each other), it is developers in competition with each other in the (perceived to be taken by ai) job market. This was the analogy I was making, which is closer to the 1934 case than the "unfair" copyright around Ai that is widely debated.
“If you aren't using it for this, you are doing a disservice to yourself and the quality of your code”
I bow reluctantly to this device I consider unscrupulous.
When it consistently and regularly catches bugs that humans and other review agents miss, the benefit is quite clear and it becomes obvious there are more defects in your code than you realize, might be much more than that 1:90 rule of thumb. It's often less bugs and more about edge case handling, we all skimp on those exhaustive cases because it is exhausting while the agents never tire and are more than happy to work through them.
It's comment wall is uncovering enough that we are going to brave the burnout fodder while we work on a second agent to make the adjustments after we leave our own comments on the clanker comments. It's weird writing that sentence, I've generally been against the hype train, but they have become good enough there are real wins on the code review side. So yes, I will maintain you are doing a disservice to yourself, your code, and your users by not using a thing that catches bugs before you publish them. I still care about the quality when I'm putting it in other people's hands. Ai is now clearly facilitating improved code quality - when used on the review side.