Comment by gf000
8 hours ago
How is gnome "for the worse"?
Gnome 3 just works. It takes up reasonably small visual space, shows windows, has multiple desktops, I can do everything with either just a keyboard or with just a mouse. The "explode" overview is fast and I can actually find the stuff I'm looking for even with many windows.
I much prefer it to a Mac or a Windows machine, where stuff like super+left/right click doesn't work to move/resize windows, has some idiotic model that your app can run with no windows, only apparent by peeking at the top left corner's text, has 2 different maximize/full screen that messes up the virtual desktop order for no reason, and you literally have to get a better alt tab extension because the native is that useless. All this by a company considered to be "good at design".
Let's not even get started with modern windows's idiosyncrasies.
Gnome 2 was really good for it's time. Gnome 3 is a dumbed down disaster, removing settings I care about (such as font antialiasing settings, which I need to change to not get literal headaches, subpixel AA is awful as is anything blurry).
And that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Gnome. I went to Xfce, MATE and then Cinnamon for some years, but I'm now back on KDE and it been good for several years (I left KDE when KDE 4 came out and went to Gnome 2).
But each to their own, use what makes you happy. But Gnome has a history of messing with your desktop, KDE less so in recent years.
> Gnome 3 [...] removing settings I care about (such as font antialiasing settings, which I need to change to not get literal headaches, subpixel AA is awful as is anything blurry).
1) That setting still exists, it's just less prominent.
2) Subpixel AA is no longer the default; the default is grayscale, because it works well on all screens in all orientations.
Last I checked I couldn't set full hinting. And for GTK4 programs I even had to set a hidden variable in a ini file[1] to make it respect my fontconfig setting for hinting.
Apparently it is supposed to be on for low DPI screens. I would count mine as low DPI (even my laptop is only around 150 DPI) but I still need to set that manually.
So no, GTK didn't keep the font rendering settings I care about, and is actively hostile in trying to ignore them even.
[1]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/GTK#Text_in_GTK_4_applicati...
Any system that is missing a task bar/dock/whatever you call it is a non-starter for serious work. That's a major regression that completely kills default Gnome, and shows just how incompetent their UX designers are. Even the Windows 8 designers knew better than that, and that's saying something.
Why would I want a "task bar/dock/whatever you call it" taking up space on my screen when I have more interesting things to do and look at?
It is one of the "interesting things to look at" if one is switching between apps and files regularly. It's not just an app launcher with icons (though in some environments it is and that's their UX failure). It shows important variable info, like file or directory names per program, sometimes status of the action inside app (connected/disconnected or action completion percentage etc.). Clock is useful too, as are notification badges. Taskbar is for work, not just to take space.
My LxQt task bar is 20 pixels high. A typical Gnome session wastes more than that on useless padding.
oh yeah I forgot about this but I absolutely have a grip with this.
Though I'm not 100% in line with this because in i3 I have no taskbar but it's perfect for serious work because:
1. Each app / type of app I use has its own workspace
2. The indicator of workspace only shows those which have a window on it, even if they always exist
That pretty much replicates the taskbar experience but with the added benefits that I choose exactly how I "group" those windows
Note : I come from GNOME 2 so maybe that's why I despise it because of the complete redesign they made. The app drawer is just not made for computer they just saw windows 8 ui and decided to go with it too
GTK4 decided to drop the ability to theme any apps (or are seriously going this way if its not already in place) but that's my computer and the lack of customization is litterally one of the main reason i left windows 15 years ago.
Renaming the apps to something totally generic is also weird like i want to install eye-of-gnome now called "photos" i have no clue what the package name is, same for engrampa or the file explorer.
The new design guideline is not to my taste but that's not the point here.
But it's a lot of small stuff like you copy / extract a file then no more window just a small indicator in the corner of the file explorer which cannot stay on screen so i can track the progress easily, and what happen if I close the explorer ? Does it continue in the background or stop because everything is closed i'll never know.
I also had a grip with the picture viewer which forced me to stay on eog until I finally took the dip and went to eye-of-mate but I don't remember it, just that it was enough for me to stop using it
To be fair my experience is more or less a year old since I've not used GTK software in a while but that's just a few exemple on how it clearly isn't as good as it used to be.
> Renaming the apps to something totally generic is also weird like i want to install eye-of-gnome now called "photos" i have no clue what the package name is, same for engrampa or the file explorer.
That one actually seems good. Windows got this right from the start - your files were in File Manager, not Kzdrhnoyr. Your programs were in program manager. You got to the internet with Internet Explorer not Metabird, you changed settings in the Control Panel not in WinGadgets. You write in Notepad or Wordpad or Word, not in Phantom Song 3. Of course they had some exceptions, like Outlook Express which really should have been called Email.
It should be gnome-photos though not just photos.
"But it's a lot of small stuff like you copy / extract a file then no more window just a small indicator in the corner of the file explorer which cannot stay on screen so i can track the progress easily, and what happen if I close the explorer ? Does it continue in the background or stop because everything is closed i'll never know."
This is Hacker News. You can just try and see what happens.
None of these are problems with Gnome shell though, it's just as happy running thunar or kde programs.
For file copy, I swear I have yet to see a variant of this that I actually liked. Not sure why it's so hard to properly solve.
No but I never claimed that the shell itself was the main issue (though the app drawer is definetly part of it). It's the gnome ecosystem in general that took this approach. Of course I can use a different app each time one changes the way they do stuff but that's the point I shouldn't have to learn a new app because an update broke what I used to use
Exactly what I like in Gnome, it stays out of the way, it's "lightweight" enough. At the beginning, I was customizing it a lot, but learned over the years to get rid of many things.
When compared with GNOME 2.0. Mate and Cinnamon exist for a reason.
'you are used to that other thing' is not equivalent to being better.
Ok, so here are the points where GNOME 3.0 is worse:
- Basic window manager capabilities since twm and fwvm require extensions
- JavaScript all over the place, and for several years, GJS + SpiderMonkey had enough leaks and loss of performance versus the C based extensions
- Windows like registry for gsettings.
- One needs a third party app to actually edit gsettings in a comfortable way
- Multiple reboots on the IDE tooling, the new designer actually uses Web rendering tech for what are supposed to be native applications
- The way virtual monitors are managed versus traditional X Windows managers is bonkers
- No support for Windows shading, again another classical X Windows manager feature
Plenty of others I could list.
Gnome doesn't even have maximise and minimise buttons on windows without an extension. It absolutely does not 'just work'.
Even just yesterday there were comments pointing this out: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49802633
> has some idiotic model that your app can run with no windows
Sorry for wanting background programs to run in the background and get out of my way.
Well, it doesn't have a tray per se, so what would minimize actually do? That's not good criticism that it's different from win XP ergo bad.
For maximize, it's double click on the top bar, or super+up. It has a huge target for the mouse and it's super intuitive. Unlike having a 3 or how many state maximize button that just elongates my window along one axis for some reason.
For minimize, just put it on another workspace you don't use. I think it's a much better mental model, and the tray itself is absolutely not intuitive (the number of times I had to explain to elderly relatives that this tiny icon here is where your window went to. No, this another icon that looks almost the same, but doesn't have that border - how intuitive - was not running it's just pinned. Oh and yeah on this one you have to just hover over, no not click, because there are multiple windows grouped together)
> Well, it doesn't have a tray per se, so what would minimize actually do? That's not good criticism that it's different from win XP ergo bad.
It doesn't fit with workflows I have. Ergo Gnome does not 'just' work.
> For maximize, it's double click on the top bar, or super+up.
Very discoverable.
> It has a huge target for the mouse and it's super intuitive.
No, it's not intuitive. I use it, but only because I read about it on the internet.
> Unlike having a 3 or how many state maximize button that just elongates my window along one axis for some reason.
You might want to read Apple human interface guidelines for what those buttons actually do. It's even explained in the OS (although I admit, not very front and centre).
> For minimize, just put it on another workspace you don't use. I think it's a much better mental model,
I don't. I don't want the equivalent of a junk folder on my phone filled with apps I can't delete. I want to be able to delete those apps. Just the same, I want my background programs to be out of the way, not visible, in the background. I don't want to always have that one workspace that's just dead space.
> and the tray itself is absolutely not intuitive (the number of times I had to explain to elderly relatives that this tiny icon here is where your window went to.
What program even made that talk happen? Even if a program ends up in the tray, you can reopen it the normal way without issues.
> No, this another icon that looks almost the same, but doesn't have that border - how intuitive - was not running it's just pinned.
What are you even talking about here? What are you talking about when you say 'pinned'? If the icons look the same, that's a fault with the program, not the idea of a tray.
> Oh and yeah on this one you have to just hover over, no not click, because there are multiple windows grouped together)
Grouped windowed in the taskbar is a misfeature and should never have been implemented. I'll agree with you on that point.
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I just keep my windows maximized all the time. What would I need minimize and maximize buttons for? If I have need for several windows next to each other, Gnome gives me handy keyboard shortcuts.
> Sorry for wanting background programs to run in the background and get out of my way.
Sounds like those "background programs running in the background" should be user daemons instead of GUI applications.
> I just keep my windows maximized all the time. What would I need minimize and maximize buttons for?
I have too many windows open to keep them all maximised.
> If I have need for several windows next to each other, Gnome gives me handy keyboard shortcuts.
Those are undiscoverable and should not be the only option.
> Sounds like those "background programs running in the background" should be user daemons instead of GUI applications.
Shoulda, coulda, woulda. I manage with the programs that are, not the ones that could be. I'm not interested in developing my own DE, not redeveloping all the other programs surrounding it.
One isn't even a GUI application. The second sees regular use with a GUI, but only for reconfigurations that take less than 10 seconds.
My workflow works for me, and has for the past 10, probably 20 years if you include earlier programs doing the same kinds of things. Why would I want to relearn a new UI for only marginal benefits?
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That's because these buttons are useless.
I use them every day.
I use them constantly.
In the gnome file explorer there's 3 different menus, marked only by generic icons, and I always forget the one to open a new tab.
Completely fair to complain that the icons do not indicate the purpose of each menu. They do helpfully name each menu in the tooltip: the hamburger on the left is "Main Menu", the three vertical dots in the location bar is the "Current Folder Menu" and the down arrow next to the view switcher is "View Options".
The Main Menu offers global actions, and appears in the left-hand global pane of the window. The Current Folder Menu offers actions specifically related to the location named in the location bar. The View Options menu is part of a split button with the view switcher, and has additional view-related options.
You're right that the icons themselves do not explain their full and complete functionality. Fortunately, we do not need to rely on hoping for the right labels for actions (be they textual or iconographic). For software intended to be used on a regular basis, it's worth spending a bit of time internalizing the model.
If there's one thing I've learned over 2 decades of using gnome, it's that it is very much not worth internalizing whatever model they're using this 3-5 year period, because it'll be ripped out the next.
Well, use another file explorer? Just because it's also developed under the same project, how does it have any relevance here? Especially that on Linux the file browser has no special status as on e.g. windows.
That was my point to be fair, it's not the gnome DE in itself the main issue it's the ecosystem. You wouldn't tell most windows or osx user to replace explorer or finder, and yes that can be a solution just like changing the whole DE can. Software update should not get me this passionate about it or it's clearly that something's wrong
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Ctrl-T.
Maybe you missed the controversy when it happened but Gnome 3 has been nonstop removing features since its conception. It's explicitly aiming to be an OS for low-skill users. It also insists on being incompatible with industry standards like server-side window decorations. This is because it's a Red Hat project and they sell ecosystem lock-in.
> Gnome 3 just works. It takes up reasonably small visual space, shows windows, has multiple desktops, I can do everything with either just a keyboard or with just a mouse.
And 20 extensions because by default it's borderline useless
I use zero extensions and it's perfectly fine.
Again, anything material to add?
Yeah this whole conversation is interesting to me. Linux was impenetrable to me 10-15 years ago (partially due to age but I wasn’t exactly a kid back then). Now it feels way more polished and usable. I’m hardly a power user but that’s sort of the point! I’ve got machines using bazzite, pop, and elementary. I get tripped up by permissions and stuff here and there but overall pop and Bazzite in particular have proven to be perfectly capable daily drivers.
I’m hardly an expert and maybe I’m not the target audience, but I like where things are and have been going. Now they just need to solve how circuitous installing Linux is…
Gnome haters are delusional cry babies that have been throwing a continuous fit for 20 years now. They make gimp and systemd haters seem thoughtful.