The 2 different types of datetimes encode different information and is not purely a display/presentation issue, it's also storage issue.
I happen to call them "scientific datetime" vs "cultural/political datetime". However, the software dev industry has not converged on a standard vocabulary to delineate the 2 types which is unfortunate because that means programmers are unaware that the difference exists. Concepts are more top-of-mind when there are good names to label them.
There's the meme of "store UTC everywhere" (maybe perceived as correct because of superficial similarity to "use UTF-8 everywhere") ... but storing datetimes as UTC is only unambiguous for historical events such as timestamps of activity stored in server logs.
But future datetimes can have ambiguous edge cases which causes the split into 2 different types.
But this is still different to a time someone enters into a calendar. Standard time can change its offset (to UTC) over time (e.g. DST), while a time in a calendar is fixed in the nominal sense.
"scientific datetime" is quite ambiguous, since I would consider science-level precision time to be TAI (International Atomic Time, what UTC uses as a reference), or maybe UT1, which is one variant of UT (Universal Time, unrelated to UTC), depending on the scientific field. For simple cases, UTC might be enough, so you could call this "UTC".
I think practically what matters for developers are three things:
- Standard time (dependent on timezone)
- UTC (the reference for standard times in the different timezones)
- Calendar times (seems to be called "floating time" [0]), just referring to a specific date and time, usually independent from both standard time and UTC, from the author's perspective (others viewing a foreign calendar might see times interpreted in their own timezone). Often scoped by physical location, but not necessarily.
, while a time in a calendar is fixed in the nominal sense.
The above scenario of fixed time regardless of DST/TZ changes is what I tried to call "cultural/political time". In other comments, I called it "appointment time".
What you call "calendar time", others will call it "time with calculated UTC offset". (Which then leads to more meta discussion of "no... calendar time is not UTC offset because ..." )
Both examples of our ambiguous labels causing more confusion is prime example of the industry not converging on good names to make devs aware of the difference.
>I think practically what matters for developers are three things:
That categorization is fine but is still obscuring the key issue: many developers think they can collapse all of your 3 types into one simple strategy of "always store it as UTC"
It's not only about display. If you store a user's appointment only as a UTC timestamp, you actually can't know the hour of the day (and the day itself to be precise) on which this appointment should happen, for a given calendar (probably the user's calendar, in a specific non-UTC timezone). You would have to guess by using the calendar's/user's timezone and compute some offset with UTC. But what if the user changes timezones or the timezone itself changes its value? Store without a timezone, and you know the exact hour and day the user intended. One is pointing to a day and hour in a calendar, the other is pointing at a point on the line of a linear timeline.
You're still just talking about client conversion on the write instead of the read. A Unix epoch is a UTC timestamp. That number is not time-zone-less it's just in the default computer time zone.
I'm referring to a "datetime", which should be a data type which stores a date, e.g. "2026-09-28", and a time, e.g. "16:58:18". The unix epoch is not relevant here, unless you _want_ to store a UTC timestamp. You could store a UTC timestamp also as ISO 8601, which is not a number. But this is not related to the timezone-less datetime I'm talking about. To make my points more clear, just imagine the datetime is stored as a string "2026-09-28 16:58:18" with no implied timezone whatsoever.
The 2 different types of datetimes encode different information and is not purely a display/presentation issue, it's also storage issue.
I happen to call them "scientific datetime" vs "cultural/political datetime". However, the software dev industry has not converged on a standard vocabulary to delineate the 2 types which is unfortunate because that means programmers are unaware that the difference exists. Concepts are more top-of-mind when there are good names to label them.
If a programmer doesn't understand how the 2 datetimes behave differently, they will create software bugs as I've outlined before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39418897
There's the meme of "store UTC everywhere" (maybe perceived as correct because of superficial similarity to "use UTF-8 everywhere") ... but storing datetimes as UTC is only unambiguous for historical events such as timestamps of activity stored in server logs.
But future datetimes can have ambiguous edge cases which causes the split into 2 different types.
What you call "cultural/political datetime" should be "standard time" (or maybe "civil time"):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_time
But this is still different to a time someone enters into a calendar. Standard time can change its offset (to UTC) over time (e.g. DST), while a time in a calendar is fixed in the nominal sense.
"scientific datetime" is quite ambiguous, since I would consider science-level precision time to be TAI (International Atomic Time, what UTC uses as a reference), or maybe UT1, which is one variant of UT (Universal Time, unrelated to UTC), depending on the scientific field. For simple cases, UTC might be enough, so you could call this "UTC".
I think practically what matters for developers are three things:
- Standard time (dependent on timezone)
- UTC (the reference for standard times in the different timezones)
- Calendar times (seems to be called "floating time" [0]), just referring to a specific date and time, usually independent from both standard time and UTC, from the author's perspective (others viewing a foreign calendar might see times interpreted in their own timezone). Often scoped by physical location, but not necessarily.
[0]: https://www.w3.org/TR/timezone/#floating-times
, while a time in a calendar is fixed in the nominal sense.
The above scenario of fixed time regardless of DST/TZ changes is what I tried to call "cultural/political time". In other comments, I called it "appointment time".
What you call "calendar time", others will call it "time with calculated UTC offset". (Which then leads to more meta discussion of "no... calendar time is not UTC offset because ..." )
Both examples of our ambiguous labels causing more confusion is prime example of the industry not converging on good names to make devs aware of the difference.
>I think practically what matters for developers are three things:
That categorization is fine but is still obscuring the key issue: many developers think they can collapse all of your 3 types into one simple strategy of "always store it as UTC"
It's not only about display. If you store a user's appointment only as a UTC timestamp, you actually can't know the hour of the day (and the day itself to be precise) on which this appointment should happen, for a given calendar (probably the user's calendar, in a specific non-UTC timezone). You would have to guess by using the calendar's/user's timezone and compute some offset with UTC. But what if the user changes timezones or the timezone itself changes its value? Store without a timezone, and you know the exact hour and day the user intended. One is pointing to a day and hour in a calendar, the other is pointing at a point on the line of a linear timeline.
You're still just talking about client conversion on the write instead of the read. A Unix epoch is a UTC timestamp. That number is not time-zone-less it's just in the default computer time zone.
I'm referring to a "datetime", which should be a data type which stores a date, e.g. "2026-09-28", and a time, e.g. "16:58:18". The unix epoch is not relevant here, unless you _want_ to store a UTC timestamp. You could store a UTC timestamp also as ISO 8601, which is not a number. But this is not related to the timezone-less datetime I'm talking about. To make my points more clear, just imagine the datetime is stored as a string "2026-09-28 16:58:18" with no implied timezone whatsoever.
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