Comment by microtonal
9 hours ago
As others have said, this is not the most recent status update (it depends on future Google changes in QPR1 or QPR2).
The much more interesting recent news IMO is that Google is not allowing (non-Samsung) OEMs to sell devices with GrapheneOS:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49946698
See the last paragraph.
For example, non-Samsung Android OEMs aren't allowed to directly sell devices with GrapheneOS and Google will only permit it within a quota. It can and is being worked around and there will be devices sold with GrapheneOS as the stock OS without Google restricting how many can be sold.
My guess is that the workaround is that Motorola sells them with Google-certified Android. A third-party (non-OEM) buys them in bulk and preinstalls GrapheneOS.
But this is really end-90s/begin-00s Microsoft levels of anti-competitiveness. I'm surprised that (particularly non-US) regulators are not investigating them yet.
> But this is really end-90s/begin-00s Microsoft levels of anti-competitiveness. I'm surprised that (particularly non-US) regulators are not investigating them yet.
Every company is nice until the monies they earn is not guaranteed anymore. They were closing the doors they have intentionally left open in the name of security for a couple of generations.
Now they're being more open about why they are limiting user choice. Because like Chrom(e/ium), Android is designed to be a large data sink for Google to feed The Machine.
"Because like Chrom(e/ium), Android is designed to be a large data sink for Google to feed The Machine."
Also maintaining the monopoly over the app market and getting a good cut out of every transaction within. A non google controlled device in the mass market can introduce new markets independent of google (and not paying them).
They would not like that.
Apple did the same thing. In the early days of OSX much of Darwin was open-sourced. Now, not so much.
It's all about that sweet backdoor. With Google and Samsung the NSA can just waltz in and out of your phone no matter which OS is running. But if some Chinese OEM decides that Unisoc chip & baseband would be the best choice for your GrapheneOS device the NSA will be quite unhappy.
It's the other way round.
If the device is sufficiently secure, it will be considered for the official support from GrapheneOS.
Of course, GOS can be forked by anyone, including Chinese OEM with insecure hardware.
I'm honestly a little surprised we haven't seen a Chinese OEM use grapheneOS or their own fork of it.
Graphene is a privacy focussed rom. In China there is not such a concept as privacy. In fact, it might be illegal to be distributing this, even for export.
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Why are you surprised? Since when does China care about privacy?
They already have HarmonyOS, which is much better than Android
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> The much more interesting recent news IMO is that Google is not allowing (non-Samsung) OEMs to sell devices with GrapheneOS:
how is that legal??
that sounds like a very clean cut case of thinks companies aren't allowed to do under fair market lawes
It's only illegal if the law is enforced and the US federal government gave up on anti-trust enforcement a long time ago and any attempts to re-awaken it get nerfed quick.
The US isn’t the only place Android phones are sold.
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Yeah, I don't understand this, graphene is FOSS and unaffiliated with google so if you as an oem install grapheneos on hardware you manufactured how does Google have any say at all?
Because Google will cut you off from access to the privileged Android access to Play Store, Services and everything else. So it’s basically all or nothing.
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> I'm surprised that (particularly non-US) regulators are not investigating them yet.
This is basically the reason Google lost their Play Store anti-trust lawsuit when Apple won theirs. Google did all these incriminating, behind closed doors deals to lock out competition from their “open ecosystem”, where Apple never pretended to be open to behind with.
This is just the Breaking Bad "He can't keep getting away with it" meme, for tech giants. Google has been ruling Android with an iron fist for over a decade, and they continue to do so. This came up in a different comment chain of mine [0] recently as well, and is probably more worth reading than a lot of the other comments here that are just now realizing how restrictive Google is with Android
[0] https://tildes.net/~tech/1wam/blocking_of_unverified_apps_on...
> Apple never pretended to be open
Except when Steve Jobs lied saying FaceTime would be an open standard.
"FaceTime is based on a lot of open standards: H.264 video, AAC audio, and a bunch of alphabet-soup acronyms. And we’re going to take it all away. We’re going to the standards bodies, starting tomorrow, and we’re going to make FaceTime an open industry standard." - Steve Jobs at Apple’s WWDC 2010 keynote (emphasis mine)
That was their intention but that changed after they lost a patent troll lawsuit.
> But this is really end-90s/begin-00s Microsoft levels of anti-competitiveness. I'm surprised that (particularly non-US) regulators are not investigating them yet.
You mean like the Skyhook vs Google 2014 lawsuit? (look it up) Settled before it could go any further.
You can always notify the EC anti competition whatsdpg through their wistleblower portal:)
EU is hell bent on locking "your" devices down as much as possible so they can shove their big brother spyware down your throat under the guise of "protecting the kids" [1]. They are building tons of EU and national level apps where strong Play Integrity is required [2] and will pair these up with the need to prove your identity to "make sure you are an adult" everywhere on the internet [3]. At least one EU country, Spain, has already begun to profile people based on whether they may be running phone OSes other than Google blessed ones [4]
[1] https://fightchatcontrol.eu/chat-control-overview
[2] https://waag.org/en/article/european-digital-id-wallets-are-...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Kids_Act
[4] https://www.androidauthority.com/why-i-use-grapheneos-on-pix...
Speaking of 'EU' as a single entity seems a bit like a deep state conspiracy theory. Yes l, there is lobbying around CSAM scanning, security agency, banking industry and media networks, that all work against open source and security by design. Still there is also other movements and I don't think anticompetition has the same agenda. But in the end it is politics: there needs to be enough people to care about something. For anticompetition to be active I think the problem is rather there is no European market to protect. And particularly graphene (I will get downvotes for this) is not really good in joining forces with other European businesses in this space. Activism is important, but for lobbying you need to escape the niche.
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with how EC has been behaving recently that might make things worse..
They probably know already, it's not the first time it happens. See the illegal pressure Google has made against OEM after CyanogenMod wanted to go commercial.
Google was found guilty by the EU antitrust investigation and payed a 4 billions euros fine (and Google has changed nothing since then, they only increased the pressure).
GrapheneOS is especially annoying for them as it destroys their blanket excuse that it's ""for security""
Corporations learned they have to get in bed with regulators first, and how to do it.
I saw an interview with Bill Gates once where he said that one thing he would've done differently is more quickly come around to the idea of sending people to Washington. Apparently he didn't like the idea of lobbying and that cost them when the regulators started coming for them
Source: https://www.politico.com/story/2011/04/how-microsoft-learned...
Wow, then there we go: don't hate the player, hate the game. You're telling me even Bill Gates wasn't evil until the system forced him to either become evil or get shut down.
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> My guess is that the workaround is that Motorola sells them with Google-certified Android.
Was this ever the deal with Moto? They announced something recently, but it didn't read like Moto would be distributing devices with preinstalled GOS. Just that it would be able to run GOS.
The original announcement was vague[0]. Most assumed that Motorola will be releasing a GOS phone[1], but as more information became available it seems that Motorola will release a GOS-compatible phone. At least to start. Both sides are not commenting on if a phone would eventually ship with GOS from the factory AFAIK. But I'm guessing neither wants to commit to anything right now.
[0] https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/116159602850585685
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/GrapheneOS/comments/1rik0np/motorol...
Unless they've recently changed the deal, they'll be selling GOS out of the box. That was the announcement two or so years ago, and so far as I know nothing had changed.
Well, they designed some handsets (one is announced, maybe there's another one or two) to meet Pixels / GrapheneOS level of hardware security. That alone is BIG.
Then there's expectation GOS might be sold pre-installed as well.
One obvious challenge with the distribution is: would you want to buy a phone with pre-installed GrapheneOS?
This seems similar to wanting to follow the advice of "only buy bottled water on your trip to India", but the bottle you're buying has the cap removed so they could put a straw in it for your convenience.
GrapheneOS has attempted to cover this, it comes with an Auditor app that can be used from another Android device to check for tampering.
> The Auditor app uses hardware-based security features to validate the identity of a device, along with the authenticity and integrity of the operating system. It ensures the device is running a verified operating system with a locked bootloader and that no tampering has occurred." [0]
I assume that it would be quickly discovered if Motorola were tampering with phones en masse.
[0] https://attestation.app/about
Motorola is at 5% of the world's market share. They fell really deep.
It takes EU regulators like half a decade or so to make up their minds on each issue.
The EU never sanctionned Microsoft for monopoly. They received $2bn fines in 2005 for lack of transparency on the documentation for drivers, if I remember, then a little extra for paperwork. Then Microsoft complied mostly at the last minute before being fined (even for the 6-months disappearance of the Browser Choice Dialog, it only cost them $500m).
But never, never has the EU sanctionned Microsoft for signing OEM deals that prevent companies from installing other OS than Windows.
Right. The EU still seems successful in shaping (foreign) tech to some extent. Handing out huge fines is maybe less important than effecting change. Though it would of course be good if other national/transnational regulators would join in and take care of some of these topics. Imagine for example if Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Australia and New Zealand teamed up. Together they might be able to accomplish something.
Time for US regulators to show how it's done? I'm sure Americans can show Europe how this is done properly, right?
> I'm surprised that (particularly non-US) regulators are not investigating them yet.
So that in three years (after Graphene has gone under and after Google pressured Samsung to stop working with them) Judge Mehta can rule that it is in fact illegal but not doing it would damage Google's business so he will allow it?
I regret to inform you that the manager will not save you. The manager will be doing $100K speeches on a tour of google campuses.
> end-90s/begin-00s Microsoft levels of anti-competitiveness.
Also got away with it. The only consolation prize we got was a glimpse at a bunch of documents that made clear that they knew full well what they were doing. That actually makes it worse.
So long for monopoly laws...
Also reminiscent of iirc Intel's choke hold on companies like Dell that froze out AMD
> I'm surprised that (particularly non-US) regulators are not investigating them yet.
Because corporate managed phones are required for all the id crap governance franchises intend to foist on people.
This is where governments should slam them with regulations.
Absolute anti-competitive behavior. "Android is open, but not really"
You want to lead an assault on companies that develop OSS because they don't follow your dictats on how to work?
That sounds like a brilliant idea, I'm sure it'll be amazing show of force for all the top kernel contributors as well.
No, just lead an assault on companies that abuse their market position to kneecap any possibility of OSS being deployed meaningfully.
This actually is a brilliant idea.
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> I'm surprised that (particularly non-US) regulators are not investigating them yet.
Simple reason, they're afraid of Trump bullying them into submission, just look at the oil/diesel stockpile release drama.
The US has never been shy about its politicians up to and including the President being an extended arm of the large US corporations - but Trump takes that x1000.
> The much more interesting recent news IMO is that Google is not allowing (non-Samsung) OEMs to sell devices with GrapheneOS:
To be That Guy, Apple is not allowing anyone anywhere to sell any devices with anything but MacOS/iOS.
> But this is really end-90s/begin-00s Microsoft levels of anti-competitiveness.
It's not even the most anti-competitive in the market of 2026!
iOS was never never an OS that was open to any device maker who cared to use it.
Google made the choice to announce that Android was open to all, in an attempt to take market share from Windows Phone.
Now they want to go back on their word.
That may well be true. But the upthread point was that this was "anti-competitive", not "word-breaking". And in an argument about competition, Android is and remains by far (!) the most accessible platform. The restriction here is just that you can't get a license for Google's proprietary stuff if you also sell GrapheneOS, not even that you can't run GrapheneOS.
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To be That Guy, Apple is not allowing anyone anywhere to sell any devices with anything but MacOS/iOS.
Apple doesn't allow Apple selling Apple devices with other operating systems.
Google doesn't allow other OEMs selling the OEMs' devices with other operating systems.
Big difference.
(Yes, pedantics: I know that OEMs could sell devices with other OSes, but not being able to sell GMS Android devices would lose them most of their customers.)
> Big difference.
Not from the perspective of competition, as I see it. Like, if you want to compete with Apple by using part of its platform for your own stuff, you can't at all. But you can with Google, just not all of it and in all ways.
Point being: this is just another platform flame. People with one kind of phone in their pocket are outraged at the maker of the other thing.
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Then they'll be breaching their contract with Google so they'll lose the benefits of the contract, such as being allowed to preinstall the play store or Google apps like Gmail, or to call them Android devices. They might also be required to pay Google millions or billions of dollars in compensation for lost revenue, such as the 30% play store tax Google would have received had the contract been upheld.
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> If an OEM ships grapheneos then what? There's a quota? What's the source?
The linked comment was posted a day ago by what appears to be an account used for speaking officially about GrapheneOS.
So, like, you could go ask.
Or you could also find a source and explain since the GrapeneOS dude does have a social media history full of accusations of conspiracy against them with tenuous connection to actual truth.
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If you say something about it you are accused to be a communist because you are against free market, from people that doesn't even know what the term free market means (yes, we need rules to make the market truly free, deregulation is not the way).
A free market is like an OS without memory protection. Every process can scratch in memory everywhere they want. Some may like it, but for most people it's just terrible.
That's a deregulated market. A free market is more like an android phone (minus developer ID verification) where everyone gets a space, you can do what you want in your space, you can't intrude on others' spaces without consent, and the market is formed and boundaries are enforced by some higher power who is not part of the market and is out of reach of all market participants.
Or, you know, any actual market. Where I can sell whatever I want from my stall but I can't sabotage other people's stalls.
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