Comment by ericmay
5 hours ago
Blaming the 340 million citizens of the US for Trump’s actions is repulsive too, but plenty of people enjoy doing that on the Internet.
Sorry. People are responsible for the governments they have. Everyone is, or nobody is.
Those 260 million Pakistanis can educate themselves on vaccines and make informed decisions. Vaccine denial in the US? Same thing. You can’t say Americans are responsible for anti-vax sentiments, for example, and then say other people around the world aren’t.
Or are Americans smarter and better than everyone else and so they’re more responsible? I’ll happily take you admitting we’re the best if you want to go that route.
You know, even being about to talk this much about your own government or foreign governments takes a certain level of privilege. At least 1/5th of Pakistan is in poverty.
I’m proud to be privileged and think more should be.
For example I think Iranians should be privileged to speak out against their repressive government without fear of being hung. Pakistanis aren’t privileged and can’t speak out against their government harboring Bin Laden? Someone should fix that so they are are able to speak out against that, right?
Regardless, being poor doesn’t make one stupid or uneducated. Many Americans who are anti-vax are also poor by American standards, but I don’t think it matters. You can’t have your cake and eat it too here.
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Did anyone do that in this thread? You are only the person I see projecting like this
I’m not projecting so that doesn’t make sense.
Yes you are. Case closed.
1 reply →
> Sorry. People are responsible for the governments they have. Everyone is, or nobody is.
In a democracy, yes. Pakistan however is a democracy only in distant theory, pretty much everyone sane calls it an authoritarian regime [1].
And no, in the age of guns and nuclear weapons, we can't go and blame a country's people for its government. I don't blame Gazan civilians for Hamas, I don't blame Iranian civilians for the Mullahs, I don't blame Chinese peasants for the CCP and I don't blame ordinary Russians for Putin. These people do not have a choice - either openly (e.g. China) or in practice (Pakistan, Russia, Iran).
> Those 260 million Pakistanis can educate themselves on vaccines and make informed decisions.
Pakistanis, especially in rural areas, are barely literate [2], and we're talking basic literacy here. Informed decisions require the ability to both access and understand relevant information.
> Or are Americans smarter and better than everyone else and so they’re more responsible?
Americans (as a whole) are at least better suited. On average they are far more literate, they got actual schools, they have reasonably free elections. Yes, the US democracy is flawed (FPTP and gerrymandering basically rendering the votes of swaths of people irrelevant, billionaires manipulating media coverage, ICE and other government organisations being used for voter suppression), but the US still is miles ahead of Pakistan or virtually all "third world" countries.
[1] https://statbase.org/data/pak-democracy-index/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_Pakistan
> In a democracy, yes. Pakistan however is a democracy only in distant theory, pretty much everyone sane calls it an authoritarian regime [1]
No I reject this and neo-liberal views of the world. That’s the mental model that got us into the Iraq debacle. What follows is that this becomes a problem (authoritarianism) that needs to be corrected “spread democracy”.
> These people do not have a choice - either openly (e.g. China) or in practice (Pakistan, Russia, Iran).
There is always a choice. Democracies weren’t inherent in the world but had to be fought for. They need to fight for their rights. Or not. It’s their responsibility.
> Pakistanis, especially in rural areas, are barely literate [2], and we're talking basic literacy here. Informed decisions require the ability to both access and understand relevant information.
Same was true during the age of European colonialism. “We must christianize them and educate them”. &c &c
> Americans (as a whole) are at least better suited.
As long as you agree Americans are better and exceptional I can’t really argue against you here.
> What follows is that this becomes a problem (authoritarianism) that needs to be corrected “spread democracy”.
Well for once the neoliberals were correct. In fact, the idea of "universal human rights" was a direct lesson out of 1933-1945, and Article 21 [1] directly specifies everyone's right to take part in government.
A right however is only worth more than the paper it's written on as long as it is enforced, and kleptocrats don't tend to hand over their ill-gotten power willingly.
> There is always a choice. Democracies weren’t inherent in the world but had to be fought for. They need to fight for their rights. Or not.
Which the Iranians did, and tens of thousands were slaughtered just this very year while the rest of the world watched. Or many Arab countries that had their version of "Arab Spring". Or the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine that was a direct, if late, consequence of the Maidan revolution.
> It’s their responsibility.
It's ours as well. There's this infamous line you see every time you run "sudo" in a terminal: "With great power comes great responsibility". We, us Western nations, have power, and lots of it - but we are not using it the way we should, we instead are using it mostly to make money.
> As long as you agree Americans are better and exceptional I can’t really argue against you here.
I'm German, and for what it's worth "American Exceptionalism" is a whole lot of bollocks (because guess what, objectively compared Americans are so much worse off in many metrics it isn't even funny any more, just tragic). Doesn't change my (decently sourced) facts.
[1] https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...