> It’s not sympathy so much with Russia, more of a complete distrust of US-led causes for war.
The ex-DDR folk has nothing to do with this. They literally want a tzar and claim the life was better in DDR (translate: got stuff for free, didn't have to do much).
Europe, and indeed Germany, is so much more than ex-DDR.
There are plenty of ex-DDR folks who think we should just get on with the war and start annihilating everyone from Dresden to Kamchatka, too.
Alas, the challenge for those who want peace is to get those who see only war to sit down and shut up for a while. Germans are actually good at that when they want to be.
Well, Europe East of Berlin wall is only so much. But we talk about Germany here.
> Germans are actually good at that when they want to be.
Yeah, whatever that is. They don't know themselves.
Unlike the ex-DDR folk craving for Russia to take care for them. There's a reason why that part of Germany turns right and votes AfD now. It's a mix of USSR nostalgia and dislike of the Western Germany because they believe they are still mistreated, 35 years on.
They want to see a return of peaceful relations between Europe and Russia, and unfortunately that would in fact mean addressing the injustices and crimes of the Ukrainian conflict - this cannot occur, while those crimes are still being committed.
But many Europeans don’t believe that Russia is going to be defeated, nor that the Donetsk->Crimea corridor is worth igniting the rest of Europe over. The most common refrain I hear, is that portion of Ukraine should have independence and neutrality, like Austria. How this is to be attained, of course nobody knows, but it is very definitely a common refrain.
Between the end of the Cold War and the start of the war in Ukraine, there was no peace in Afghanistan, in the Caucasus, in Syria, in Georgia, and in Crimea.
Russian misinformation and funding of far-right parties had never stopped. Every country in Russia's vicinity knew that it was coming for them. In the West relations were peaceful indeed, because all these wars were with faraway peoples.
If you're not a paid shill but genuinely believe what you're saying, you're what they call a useful idiot. This attempt at the apology of Russia, in this pretend calm tone, with emotional bits peppered throughout, is disgusting.
A lot of people who came to the West thanks to the peacefulness of Russia also want to go rebuild their countries 'Some day. Maybe.'
And lower down you say Ukraine should have some neutral autonomous territory. Maybe parts of Poland and of the Baltics and of Finland will also know the prosperity and peace that comes with 'neutrality'.
Yeah, the only problem is that you can't really establish a lasting peace with a government that is more interested in land grabbing, and turning its neighbors into vassal states.
If Europe gives in to Russia in Ukraine, anyone with basic understanding of history can see that they'll turn their attention towards Baltics, Moldova and maybe Finland and Poland. Putin doesn't want to return those "good years" between cold war and Ukraine conflict, he wants to return to the glory days of Cold War when Russia (Soviet Union) was a real superpower.
Over here in Finland, we would absolutely love to have peaceful relations with Russia, based on mutual respect and trade. But we're under no illusion about it being possible with current Russian administration.
On the other hand, if you think history is the only guide for humans to follow, Europe will self-implode before Russia gets there, anyway.
Fortunately, there are growing segments of European society who actually want to have a bright and prosperous future. This doesn’t happen with war - it happens by making sure your neighbors are well fed, too.
So, what do you suggest as a practical solution? Give Ukraine to Russia? Or maybe Baltic states too? How much land do the Russian elites need until they're satisfied and "well fed"?
I think the real issue is that Russian people consistently fail to hold their leaders accountable. It's the local rich, corrupt oligarchy stealing their prosperity, not any foreign power. They're the ones waging war as well.
I'm worried of growing segments of Western European population that are happy to make an unfair deal with Russia, as long as it's some Eastern Europeans and not them who will suffer the consequences. I guess from their viewpoint some dead Ukrainians, Estonians or Poles is acceptable if they personally get cheaper petrol and gas.
> Over here in Finland, we would absolutely love to have peaceful relations with Russia, based on mutual respect and trade. But we're under no illusion about it being possible with current Russian administration.
Russian administration is the reflection of the nature of Russian people. Look at Russian history - it is very unlikely that different administration would behave differently.
> It’s not sympathy so much with Russia, more of a complete distrust of US-led causes for war.
The ex-DDR folk has nothing to do with this. They literally want a tzar and claim the life was better in DDR (translate: got stuff for free, didn't have to do much).
Europe, and indeed Germany, is so much more than ex-DDR.
There are plenty of ex-DDR folks who think we should just get on with the war and start annihilating everyone from Dresden to Kamchatka, too.
Alas, the challenge for those who want peace is to get those who see only war to sit down and shut up for a while. Germans are actually good at that when they want to be.
Well, Europe East of Berlin wall is only so much. But we talk about Germany here.
> Germans are actually good at that when they want to be.
Yeah, whatever that is. They don't know themselves.
Unlike the ex-DDR folk craving for Russia to take care for them. There's a reason why that part of Germany turns right and votes AfD now. It's a mix of USSR nostalgia and dislike of the Western Germany because they believe they are still mistreated, 35 years on.
Do they want to let Russia keep Ukrainian land, kids, etc?
They want to see a return of peaceful relations between Europe and Russia, and unfortunately that would in fact mean addressing the injustices and crimes of the Ukrainian conflict - this cannot occur, while those crimes are still being committed.
But many Europeans don’t believe that Russia is going to be defeated, nor that the Donetsk->Crimea corridor is worth igniting the rest of Europe over. The most common refrain I hear, is that portion of Ukraine should have independence and neutrality, like Austria. How this is to be attained, of course nobody knows, but it is very definitely a common refrain.
What a load of lies.
Between the end of the Cold War and the start of the war in Ukraine, there was no peace in Afghanistan, in the Caucasus, in Syria, in Georgia, and in Crimea.
Russian misinformation and funding of far-right parties had never stopped. Every country in Russia's vicinity knew that it was coming for them. In the West relations were peaceful indeed, because all these wars were with faraway peoples.
If you're not a paid shill but genuinely believe what you're saying, you're what they call a useful idiot. This attempt at the apology of Russia, in this pretend calm tone, with emotional bits peppered throughout, is disgusting.
A lot of people who came to the West thanks to the peacefulness of Russia also want to go rebuild their countries 'Some day. Maybe.'
And lower down you say Ukraine should have some neutral autonomous territory. Maybe parts of Poland and of the Baltics and of Finland will also know the prosperity and peace that comes with 'neutrality'.
How dare you.
Yeah, the only problem is that you can't really establish a lasting peace with a government that is more interested in land grabbing, and turning its neighbors into vassal states.
If Europe gives in to Russia in Ukraine, anyone with basic understanding of history can see that they'll turn their attention towards Baltics, Moldova and maybe Finland and Poland. Putin doesn't want to return those "good years" between cold war and Ukraine conflict, he wants to return to the glory days of Cold War when Russia (Soviet Union) was a real superpower.
Over here in Finland, we would absolutely love to have peaceful relations with Russia, based on mutual respect and trade. But we're under no illusion about it being possible with current Russian administration.
On the other hand, if you think history is the only guide for humans to follow, Europe will self-implode before Russia gets there, anyway.
Fortunately, there are growing segments of European society who actually want to have a bright and prosperous future. This doesn’t happen with war - it happens by making sure your neighbors are well fed, too.
So, what do you suggest as a practical solution? Give Ukraine to Russia? Or maybe Baltic states too? How much land do the Russian elites need until they're satisfied and "well fed"?
I think the real issue is that Russian people consistently fail to hold their leaders accountable. It's the local rich, corrupt oligarchy stealing their prosperity, not any foreign power. They're the ones waging war as well.
I'm worried of growing segments of Western European population that are happy to make an unfair deal with Russia, as long as it's some Eastern Europeans and not them who will suffer the consequences. I guess from their viewpoint some dead Ukrainians, Estonians or Poles is acceptable if they personally get cheaper petrol and gas.
> Over here in Finland, we would absolutely love to have peaceful relations with Russia, based on mutual respect and trade. But we're under no illusion about it being possible with current Russian administration.
Russian administration is the reflection of the nature of Russian people. Look at Russian history - it is very unlikely that different administration would behave differently.
Putin is not a blip, he is the trend.
True, even with Putin gone it's more likely than not Russia will continue being a pain. But at least there's a chance.