Everything we have witnessed that arises also passes away. Every living thing, every dead thing - even stars and planets - arise and pass away.
I feel it’s the ultimate hubris to think we can cheat death.
Moreover, why would you want immortality?
Many books of fiction and poetry discuss the curse of immortality.
Here are a few:
The Immortal, Jorge Luis Borges (1947)
A man discovers a source of immortality, but eternity eventually destroys the significance of individual experiences. When everything can happen infinitely, nothing feels particularly important.
The Mortal Immortal — Mary Shelley (1833) - also wrote Frankenstein
A man drinks an elixir and lives for centuries without substantially aging. He watches his wife grow old and die, and becomes increasingly alienated from humanity. Shelley focuses on loneliness and the psychological weight of endless time.
All Men Are Mortal — Simone de Beauvoir (1946)
An immortal man lives through centuries of history, relationships, and political upheaval. Gradually he discovers that even extraordinary achievements seem meaningless when time is unlimited.
The Makropulos Affair — Karel Čapek (1922)
A woman lives more than 300 years through an elixir. She retains her youth but becomes emotionally exhausted, cynical, and incapable of finding pleasure.
—
There are more. Sure, these are fiction. But use your imagination. Why would you want immortality, even if you could retain perfect health indefinitely?
> Everything we have witnessed that arises also passes away. Every living thing, every dead thing - even stars and planets - arise and pass away.
The context was if biological aging and age-related death can be stopped / prevented / reversed, and I don't see in what you wrote an argument against that. Those are a set of biochemical processes, and if there exist a scientific principle which would prevent modulating them successfully, you didn't name it.
> Moreover, why would you want immortality?
First, this is an orthogonal question. Whether I don't want something to happen, doesn't mean it can't, or won't: I never wanted to be replaced by LLMs, but those got invented anyway. Anyhow, the immortality we're talking about isn't of the kind where you are unable to die no matter what, it's just you don't age. You are permanently 22 - but so is everyone around you. I don't know, maybe it gets boring after 300 years, maybe after 300.000 - but I'd rather try and take myself out when I feel like it than die feeling there's so much more to experience (which is almost certainly going to be the case).
I like Alan Watt's view on death: "it's absurd to worry about death because when you're dead, you've got nothing to worry about, so you'll be alright".
And Neil deGrasse Tyson, I think in reference to life after death: "it's the same as before you were born". Kind of mindblowing perspective - you've already experienced the state of not existing, it's the same as before you were born.
This brings it home that really it's the now you should learn to live and appreciate to the fullest instead, not some future you have no control over. Still struggling how that translates into worrying about my future health, but I suppose there is still the now of the future to worry about.
> Kind of mindblowing perspective - you've already experienced the state of not existing, it's the same as before you were born.
Your consciousness might have existed before, in another body, and it might do so again after your death.
The fact is you don't know what happens after you die. Maybe you'll cease to exist and will never again come into existence, even over all the hundreds of trillions of years yet to come in this universe, and even in any of the who-knows-how-many other universes that will ever exist.
Or maybe the physical requirements to create your specific consciousness will reoccur again and again and again.
You just don't know. Nor does Neil deGrass Tyson. Nor does, for that matter, the pope or the Dalai Lama.
You may want certainty. You may crave it, even need it. But that's too bad, as you'll never have it.
That's how I've long viewed it. As a practical matter we live "forever." Still makes me a tad nervous if I find myself thinking about it in the dark at 2am, but during the day it is a satisfactory explanation.
Or perhaps these authors could not imagine what being 100+ years of healthspan person would actually be like.
Imagine a civilization where death from biological aging would've happened at the age of 12. Would authors from such civilization be able to predict how a 45 year old would function? Or just extrapolate their (maximum 12) years old experience and come to the conclusion that being past 40 is so psychologically damaging that it would've been better to keep things the default way?
Note that I have just used my imagination, and came to different conclusions, so we are on the equal terms with said authors.
Yes, you used your imagination. But only 45/12 =3.75 times. That puts our projectiok at approximately 100*3.75=375 years. That’s quite different than living several million years or indefinitely.
Because one lifetime is not enough to experience everything the world has to offer.
If one doesn't have to watch ones spouse, friends and family grow old and die, because it is available widely, that removes some of your objections.
Personally I don't subscribe to the idea that things lose meaning in a longer life, I find it a 'just so' story of self comfort in the face of the inevitable.
> don't know about immortality, but I'd definitely like more than 80 years
You’re changing the subject; this is about immortality. I’d also like to live more than 80 years, and no book can convince me otherwise. But forever? No thanks.
Why would someone want to live 100 years? 80? 60? 40? 20? Were ultimately just saying we like living and would like to keep living until we decide we don’t want to anymore. The thought that people might like living longer than they get is pretty well supported by every dying person who doesn’t want to die rather than just some speculative fiction.
That is a really wanky, lazy, cliched, annoying trope - to a longevity advocate, of course. For the many people who inexplicably think death is friendly and wonderful, these tired old storylines are utterly insightful. (see also: Doctor Who, they did stories about immortality-seeking villains a few times.)
Everything we have witnessed that arises also passes away. Every living thing, every dead thing - even stars and planets - arise and pass away.
I feel it’s the ultimate hubris to think we can cheat death.
Moreover, why would you want immortality?
Many books of fiction and poetry discuss the curse of immortality.
Here are a few:
The Immortal, Jorge Luis Borges (1947)
A man discovers a source of immortality, but eternity eventually destroys the significance of individual experiences. When everything can happen infinitely, nothing feels particularly important.
The Mortal Immortal — Mary Shelley (1833) - also wrote Frankenstein
A man drinks an elixir and lives for centuries without substantially aging. He watches his wife grow old and die, and becomes increasingly alienated from humanity. Shelley focuses on loneliness and the psychological weight of endless time.
All Men Are Mortal — Simone de Beauvoir (1946)
An immortal man lives through centuries of history, relationships, and political upheaval. Gradually he discovers that even extraordinary achievements seem meaningless when time is unlimited.
The Makropulos Affair — Karel Čapek (1922)
A woman lives more than 300 years through an elixir. She retains her youth but becomes emotionally exhausted, cynical, and incapable of finding pleasure.
—
There are more. Sure, these are fiction. But use your imagination. Why would you want immortality, even if you could retain perfect health indefinitely?
> Everything we have witnessed that arises also passes away. Every living thing, every dead thing - even stars and planets - arise and pass away.
The context was if biological aging and age-related death can be stopped / prevented / reversed, and I don't see in what you wrote an argument against that. Those are a set of biochemical processes, and if there exist a scientific principle which would prevent modulating them successfully, you didn't name it.
> Moreover, why would you want immortality?
First, this is an orthogonal question. Whether I don't want something to happen, doesn't mean it can't, or won't: I never wanted to be replaced by LLMs, but those got invented anyway. Anyhow, the immortality we're talking about isn't of the kind where you are unable to die no matter what, it's just you don't age. You are permanently 22 - but so is everyone around you. I don't know, maybe it gets boring after 300 years, maybe after 300.000 - but I'd rather try and take myself out when I feel like it than die feeling there's so much more to experience (which is almost certainly going to be the case).
> if there exist a scientific principle which would prevent modulating them successfully, you didn't name it.
Why does such a “ scientific principle “ need to exist? So that you could finally point to a clear reason that it’s impossible?
Did Newton’s laws of motion exist before they were described by Newton?
Great list. Also, Anne Rice's Vampire stories.
I like Alan Watt's view on death: "it's absurd to worry about death because when you're dead, you've got nothing to worry about, so you'll be alright".
And Neil deGrasse Tyson, I think in reference to life after death: "it's the same as before you were born". Kind of mindblowing perspective - you've already experienced the state of not existing, it's the same as before you were born.
This brings it home that really it's the now you should learn to live and appreciate to the fullest instead, not some future you have no control over. Still struggling how that translates into worrying about my future health, but I suppose there is still the now of the future to worry about.
> Kind of mindblowing perspective - you've already experienced the state of not existing, it's the same as before you were born.
Your consciousness might have existed before, in another body, and it might do so again after your death.
The fact is you don't know what happens after you die. Maybe you'll cease to exist and will never again come into existence, even over all the hundreds of trillions of years yet to come in this universe, and even in any of the who-knows-how-many other universes that will ever exist.
Or maybe the physical requirements to create your specific consciousness will reoccur again and again and again.
You just don't know. Nor does Neil deGrass Tyson. Nor does, for that matter, the pope or the Dalai Lama.
You may want certainty. You may crave it, even need it. But that's too bad, as you'll never have it.
> it's the same as before you were born.
That's how I've long viewed it. As a practical matter we live "forever." Still makes me a tad nervous if I find myself thinking about it in the dark at 2am, but during the day it is a satisfactory explanation.
Or perhaps these authors could not imagine what being 100+ years of healthspan person would actually be like.
Imagine a civilization where death from biological aging would've happened at the age of 12. Would authors from such civilization be able to predict how a 45 year old would function? Or just extrapolate their (maximum 12) years old experience and come to the conclusion that being past 40 is so psychologically damaging that it would've been better to keep things the default way?
Note that I have just used my imagination, and came to different conclusions, so we are on the equal terms with said authors.
Yes, you used your imagination. But only 45/12 =3.75 times. That puts our projectiok at approximately 100*3.75=375 years. That’s quite different than living several million years or indefinitely.
Not everything; only 93% of humans have died, for example. Past != future.
...existing...
Because one lifetime is not enough to experience everything the world has to offer.
If one doesn't have to watch ones spouse, friends and family grow old and die, because it is available widely, that removes some of your objections.
Personally I don't subscribe to the idea that things lose meaning in a longer life, I find it a 'just so' story of self comfort in the face of the inevitable.
I feel it’s the ultimate hubris to think we can cheat death.
And if we were meant to fly we'd have wings, and diseases are the gods punishing us for our sins.
Moreover, why would you want immortality?
I don't know about immortality, but I'd definitely like more than 80 years, and I'd like to be in good health for as long as I am alive.
Many books of fiction and poetry discuss the curse of immortality.
Yes, and those are almost entirely cope.
> don't know about immortality, but I'd definitely like more than 80 years
You’re changing the subject; this is about immortality. I’d also like to live more than 80 years, and no book can convince me otherwise. But forever? No thanks.
Why would someone want to live 100 years? 80? 60? 40? 20? Were ultimately just saying we like living and would like to keep living until we decide we don’t want to anymore. The thought that people might like living longer than they get is pretty well supported by every dying person who doesn’t want to die rather than just some speculative fiction.
Well if one can live to the heat death of the universe I'll count it as prevented, not postponed, death.
That is a really wanky, lazy, cliched, annoying trope - to a longevity advocate, of course. For the many people who inexplicably think death is friendly and wonderful, these tired old storylines are utterly insightful. (see also: Doctor Who, they did stories about immortality-seeking villains a few times.)
> Doctor Who
This is a bit ironic, considering the lifespan of Time Lords in that universe.
Well, accidents. Inconveniently close supernovas. Something is likely to get you eventually, some few millennia later.