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Comment by svara

15 days ago

I haven't tried it for coding yet, but I ran a couple of my recent curiosity driven queries from Claude (mostly used Fable and Opus 5.5) through it.

This is a clear step change, I'm genuinely amazed.

Its answers are to-the-point, logically structured, clearly written. Like a really well made mini essay on your question.

It also really likes to build little simulations / models that you can tweak the parameters on. Amazing to explore how different assumptions affect economic scenarios, for example.

It's also great at picking (sourced) illustrations.

I'll be using this for everything that isn't coding from now on.

It’s wild how good it is at explaining nuanced and complex health topics.

As an example, I recently had an OCT scan of my retina because I'm a “glaucoma suspect.” I'm a glaucoma suspect because I have an unusually high cup-to-disc ratio, which is a pattern typically seen in glaucomatous patients.

As part of this OCT scan, you get a report back on your RNFL, which is basically a report on the health and thickness of your optic nerve(s) and retina(s). (Dramatically oversimplifying, of course.)

My ophthalmologist struggled to explain my OCT scan results to me and instead sort of shrugged and said, "It's probably because you're a high myope, but we'll keep you coming in once a year.”

But my scans look horrifically bright red — meaning I'm in less than the first percentile of retinal thickness for my age. Obviously concerning enough to do my own research…

ChatGPT 6 Pro and Opus 5.5 have struggled to make any sense of the clinical implications of these scans. In contrast, Argon was the first model to:

1. explain how the OCT machine works

2. detail the physiological mechanism that causes the cupping and thinner RNFL layers in my scenario

3. sum it up into a clinical recommendation (similar to what my ophthalmologist recommended, with the addition of basic supplementation and lifestyle modification changes)

4. provide an interactive visualization of the topography of my eye vs a glaucomatic eye: https://optic-nerve-3d.netlify.app/

I'm blown away.

  • How do you know whether the explanation is correct or just sounds correct?

    • Many times you lack the context or words, but after it gave them to you, you can look up papers and figure out if it matches. Same as you do with human doctors to decide if you need a second opinion.

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    • If you have a solid self assessment of what you know, you can consider when information is supported by what you know. For the parts that aren't, you consider how critical they are, and identify the area that needs a deeper dive, where you either link it back to other areas you have confidence in your own knowledge or work to expand your own knowledge (using other resources). Then cross check knowledge. The cheap way you can do easily is to cross check between AIs/harnesses, because hallucinations happen randomly, so two different models in two different harnesses having the same hallucination is extremely rare. The more expensive option, which should be used when the information really matters, is building your own knowledge. Have the AI help guide you to resources, but not be the resource. While using non-AI resources, check you knowledge against them and the AI. Test yourself with classical resources where it really matters.

      Part of it is using good judgment. Is the AI's claim reasonable if it came from another person? If some random person gave you a 2 page paper proving P=NP, would you even spend time to look at it, or would you simply toss it without caring to understand what error they made. Much like how scientists (and even the patent office) simply refuse to entertain any perpetual motion machines. Maybe if an expert in the field proposed it, and even that would depend upon how ("Hey, I found a source of free energy!" vs "Hey, I'm working through these equations and the energy term isn't balancing, can you help me find what energy source I'm missing?").

      This does pose a problem. Those who are the best at understanding the limits of their knowledge and at teaching themselves need the AI's help the least but are in the position to be able to use AI with the best chance of not being misled. Those who lack these skills and would benefit the most from a personal educator, thus receving the biggest benefit in theory, are the ones most likely to fall victim to the errors made by the AI.

    • I mean, in this case it linked me to many sources, including the manual for the OCT machine used. One thing that even my ophthalmologist might not know, buried in the PDF manual, is that the sample size only includes 5 people under the age of 35 (skewing my "1st percentile" results more aggressively).

      But you're right that you can't be 100% certain. Isn't that true for human-to-human explanations too?

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    • How do you know that for a web site? You have to research and cross check, and talk to a real doctor.

  • Yeah my personal experience has been that Gemini is much more useful for trying to understand complex health issues than OpenAI or Anthropic models. The standard of proof just seems to be much better calibrated, in terms of understanding that a potential treatment that is potentially dangerous probably needs more evidence backing it than another potential treatment without much downside risk.

    • Absolutely. As one of my physician friends told me: “half the time, the best plan is, ‘We'll have to wait and see.’”

      But, as a patient, it's hard to find comfort in that. I think that might be what drives the craziness in “non-traditional” approaches to treating disease. Could it be that people using fruititarian diets and essential oils for cancer are doing so because they don’t understand enough to bear a “wait and see” situation?

      Argon explained the problem to me in such depth that I could be content with my basic treatment plan. ChatGPT went way off the deep end, suggesting things like high-dose niacinamide treatment (which is admittedly being evaluated in clinical trials, but comes with a host of other side effects).

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  • This is a great example of something that two years ago was unthinkable. I'm very impressed.

    Thanks for sharing and I hope your eyes remain fine.

  • Guessing they've been going all in on the research angle for health stuff and might have an actual product for medical professionals soon

Totally agree. This is my new favorite general-purpose/non-coding model. It's surprising how good this thing is... And fast, too.

  • It’s pretty slow for me. I’m not sure if it’s due to I trigger an agentic task by Gemini website entrance.

    Google have strict limits on new model this time and are pretty conservative. As we know they spent lots of time on internal testing since release.

    All the signs mean Gemini 4 argon is a pretty large model than previous.

    • It is a very efficient model, which I really appreciate. It can definitely feel a little slow. I tend to not hang around for it to do its thing, but for orchestrating and taking somewhat vaguely defined coding goals it is pretty amazing.

With 3.8 Flash on High I noticed a huge upgrade in intricate discussions related to physics, material properties, real-world application, and so on. Things that I've had a hard time getting LLMs to be able to discuss accurately. They often discuss textbook knowledge fine but can't apply it properly or can't think outside the box at all. 3.8 High understands applied material sciences in a way that GPT Astra flunks at often. I asked Gemini to explain that result, and it said basically that GPT was merely book smart in a classical sense and that it was likely undertrained on more obscure material.

  • I have been rather impressed with the depth and breadth of knowledge in a Q8 of 3.8-flash-next which fits in under 200GB RAM, running, with a 16384MB extra cache size.

  • I've noticed the same thing with 3.8 Flash vs Opus for aero model generation.

Google's models have usually been pretty good at general query stuff, they fall flat when doing harder tasks.

> I'll be using this for everything that isn't coding from now on.

why? is it not so good on that? or is there something better performance, or better price for same performance?

  • I'm not the poster you responded to, but I can tell you that historically the Gemini models have lagged behind Anthropic (the clear leader) and OpenAI's best models where coding in particular is concerned. Opus 5.5 is, right now, the consensus best coding model.

    That said, I'm extremely impressed with Argon thus far. I take back everything bad I've ever said about their AI strategy. Argon is very good and very fast. It might be competitive at coding, but it's too early to say.

    • Opus 5.5 medium is a real sweet spot for many many things. But. I got an unexpected refusal (for help creating a browser console script to convert a web-based streaming video to an offline-ready .mp4), which Opus 5.5 low happily provided.

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    • I completely agree; I was really surprised to find that Claude Code Opus 5.5 is significantly better. I had spent quite a bit of time using Gemini Pro for coding tasks, but when I revisited the code analysis using Opus 5.5, it revealed quite a few shortcomings in Gemini's understanding... I code using Python, which is considered the best language for writing code via LLMs (I am referring to linguistic entropy).

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  • I am using it via OpenRouter for going through some Vulkan code. It's a beast - it has no hesitation putting in instrumentation within the code (having a number of render passes) to dump the framebuffer to PNG files and doing pixel-by-pixel comparisons, putting in false colors in shaders to identify bugs etc. Very impressive.

    • That’s something Opus can also do. Perhaps by coincidence I also recently debugged shader bugs where Opus dumped the resulting render to PNGs and then using Python PIL to do comparisons. It purposefully added false colors too.

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    • Out of curiosity, which harness do you use for this kind of task, and how do you sandbox it? I used Aider before, and consider switching to a more recent tool.

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  • Inexplicably, despite the fact that I pay Google actual money for an AI plan, they don't want me to use their latest model. Instead, I'm allowed to use the competition (Opus and Sonnet 5.5). I don't think it makes sense but what do I know?

    • I think the rollout was phased. I couldn't see Argon in Antigravity on my personal AI Pro account until late last night.

My first reaction after reading the announcement post is that the coding scores look like a weak point.

  • Google is clearly not targeting coding. They don't have to. They're Google.

    • Coding is probably one of the worst value propositions, in terms of consuming more tokens per subscription dollar. Doing well in coding might even hurt Google's revenues: it would cannibalize some proportion of Anthropic's user base, which Anthropic serves by... renting Google's infra.

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    • There were rumors that the reason Gemini was delayed was because it was too bad at coding.

Big if true. Opus 5.5 is a lot better than 5.0 but I find it maddening thay no single model released in the past ~year can write prose with a clear and coherent voice. I blame RL on programming tasks.

  • Yes, that's the reason. Anthropic said as much in their statement (they said that there's a tension between writing human-understandable prose and prose optimal for other agents to read).

    As a side note, I am kind of sad that basically all models nowadays are RLd to hell and back specifically for coding and deep reasoning, and as a result, they lack in creative writing, human-readable prose, and even general knowledge and abilities (for example, qwen 3.8 27b is a beast for coding, but reportedly falls off the cliff in anything else). Gemini 4 Argon seems to be an example of what you get when you DON'T do that - Google seems to be one of the only labs optimizing for general performance.

    I also fear that models cannot be excellent in everything at the same time. I fear that there will always be a heavy tradeoff between what specific field the labs optimize for VS everything else. I don't know.

    • In my personal testing, Argon is exceptional at writing tasks. After a few simple eval loops of you correcting things into your own voice you can have it sound almost exactly like you.

I've found it on par with Opus 5.5, what don't you like about it for coding?

  • I just haven't tried it yet. Also I'm used to Claude Code now so it'd need to be a lot better for me to switch to a different tool.

I’m curious about your curiosity driven queries. Mind to share?

  • I'm not the person to whom you're replying, but I just tried one of mine:

    "I'm interested in understanding the rate of VOC dissipation from fresh oil paint on a surface versus the ventilation rate in the room in ACH. I would prefer solid academic studies of this, followed by analytical evaluation, followed by references to non-quantitative sources. Tell me what's known about this."

    that I had run in ChatGPT earlier this week. (Yes, we just had our bedroom repainted, and it's TERRIBLE and I hate it, why do you ask? :-).

    I didn't try it first in Gemini Flash, but I did try it in whatever model is used for Gemini Live and the answers were terrible. The ChatGPT answer (I think on medium) was pretty good but it threw in extraneous formulae that weren't actually germane to the analysis. The Argon 4 query I just ran was honestly the best of the answers I've gotten -- it was clear and really well-structured from the perspective of "here are the three big phases that researchers break down paint drying into and what the differing effects of ACH are on those phases".

    I'm totally going to give this one a try, after basically giving up on 3.8 flash for most things despite having a free $20 pro subscription (from buying a phone).

    Edited to add:

    Argon4 transcript: https://share.gemini.google/18Gr5liH1YWR

    ChatGPT transcript: https://chatgpt.com/share/6acedc72-ff18-83ea-8909-104cdbc6ac...

  • I am a professional bassoon player. I asked about multiphonic fingerings. It could actually suggest corrections for the fingerings that did not work.

I have had the google search results ai also do these simulations and code generations unprompted, I thought that feature already existed.

I have a project I am working on where I wanted to have nice docs, and so I have some slop docs sitting there as placeholders until I get around to writing them, awful claudish stuff

I've actually spent some effort trying to make them halfway decent placeholders by putting together a skill based on diataxis framework (https://diataxis.fr/) that at least got everything into the right location

just took a pass at rewriting them w/ argon and am very pleased, big improvement

Agreed, its communication abilities are very good. I'm a big fan of Opus 5.5 but Argon just flat out writes better.

We have this same point made every release. I wonder if models actually are getting better or if these companies are just secretly hamstringing the previous models before releasing a similarly performing model

  • I think it takes a while to start finding the weak points in a model. It seems fantastic until you use it enough to find out that it hallucinates APIs, or can’t count letters, or uses too many em-dashes, etc. you don’t really know someone (or something) until you’ve lived with them (or it).

    • I think there's definitely some quantization or nerfing happening post-release -- I definitely noticed that with Gemini Flash 3.7, it was super fast and accurate at the start and a few weeks later seemed to run in circles and overthink even a "what are you doing" message, all while doing almost identical work. I find it weird that we're so far into the LLM era and the post-launch degradation is still something of a conspiracy theory.

  • While IME 4.7 and 4.8 were not appreciably better than 4.6, Opus 5 was noticeably better, and Opus 5.5 is significantly better than Opus 5.