It adds fiber, which is the key. The main weakness of ice as a crystal is that as soon as a crack forms it can spread along imperfections in the crystal structure. Putting fibre in it bridges those gaps and stops the cracks before they can get big enough to cause significant weakening.
This type of ice composite would be super interesting for space structure construction. Melt cometary ice and mix it with additives of some kind and spin big cylinders out of it. You’d just have to make the surface reflective so it doesn’t melt, and possibly have some active cooling which you need anyway if anything inside makes heat.
The outer surface would probably be sprayed with something, maybe just reflective dust, to also keep it from subliming into the vacuum.
Extremely repairable, melts at human and equipment friendly temperatures, recyclable, doubles as an emergency water reservoir, and last but definitely not least a fantastic radiation shield.
Would also work for structures on Mars, the Moon, etc, but I’m a fan of the idea of settling space itself not another planet. Gravity wells are a trap.
A local magazine did a test on ice cream cone melting. Some of those were still intact looking after sitting open at room temperature for an hour. Hooray for additives! So it's not a fundamentally new idea. These have to be safe to eat so maybe not too harmful for environment, though you never know.
Some parts of the world use ice roads and have struggled with warm winters. Maybe this could be used to improve the strength and extend time in the spring.
One night I ended up with a scoop of ice cream I had to discard (I think I dropped it on the floor?) so left it in the sink. The next morning, it was still there. This was quite a decent ice cream, both in terms of flavour and texture; it was some of the gums holding it together. That became my new ice-cream of choice for making an affogatto without the icecream completely melting.
Ice roads would be one application. Once it freezes, usual ferry services can often no longer be upheld. Then, one has to wait until the ice is thick enough to drive a car over the ice. If there was an easily applicable material to drive on ice less than usual 15-20cm of ice, that would decrease that waiting time quite a bit (and make ice roads/bridges possible in locations that would previously be unsuitable). And since it is ice, you can grow it somewhere else and transport in place with a barge.
Another is underground tunnel building. In sandy places, there are cases where they freeze the ground when building a concrete structure. If that could be reinforced with stronger ice, it might make working easier.
Similar, you can use ice as an temporary scaffold when e.g building a spanning bridge in winter. Stronger ice => easier application of said scaffold.
It always sounds/looks like a trap to me when I hear about/see people driving whole-ass cars over 15cm ~= half a foot of ice. That's just wrong, and I would barely consider walking on ice that thick (thin).
(I'm telling you I'm from southern California without telling you I'm from southern California)
"The intended application isn't for aircraft carriers this time, but rather for construction projects in remote, cold areas where conventional building methods aren't easy to apply – like the Arctic and Antarctic.
With no concrete or steel required, and with ice and plant-based cellulose as the main ingredients, this could be a building material with a low carbon footprint that's also biodegradable."
"Further down the line, this approach could open up a whole new landscape for materials used in packaging, construction, and more: Using a custom protein to bring two unlikely compounds (ice and cellulose) together."
Wonder if this will then be used to fulfill the dream of shooting ice bullets which then melt inside the victim, leaving less evidence. If memory serves, I think the CIA explored this at some remote point in time.
Concrete's not strong enough to be used as a bullet either- you'd need something roughly the size of a shotgun slug. If you're going that big, you aren't going for subtle.
I imagine the boring truth is that, at least in America, getting shot with a normal "boring" bullet is less traceable than something special or something that mysteriously disappears.
For fictional purposes, the ballistic information disappears. You might know the murder victim was shot with an ice bullet, but you won't be able to match it to a specific weapon.
It's kind of fascinating how all the bullshit TV copaganda scenes involving forensics have both been A) rightly decried as unrealistic by savvy viewers, and B) still been fairly realistic depictions of the field of forensics.
sounds like a problem that might be solvable by a new super ice that is 10x stronger and "can absorb much more energy and deform gradually" instead of disintegrating.
The article briefly touches on future packaging. Would ice ever be useful in packaging frozen foods? It'd be biodegradable, and would be a sign of trust that the goods have been permanently frozen from packaging to delivery.
You'd literally be able to just throw the trash outside and let it feed your garden, lol.
The integrity check could also make this especially valuable for transporting medication that must remain cold. The current state of the art isn't much more than putting ice packs in a styrofoam cooler.
Well a carrier is full of equipment. A submarine freezer drone, building a ponton in the middle of a river is just a self achoring box to drive tanks over.
It's not necessarily a bonus, different sports need completely different ice properties (e.g. figure skating vs hockey), and a managed arena needs ease of maintenance.
I spend an enormous amount of time at the rink (18 ice times in the last 9 days). Can you explain this? Because I don't see the difference between the ice for figure skating vs hockey, both of which happen daily at our local rink.
The farther you go, the faster you need to go to get enough time dilation to make the trip worthwhile. The faster you go, the more the shielding matters. It still applies!
I hate how researchers always have to pretend there's a practical application for their inventions. This is clearly never going to replace concrete in any situation. But it's still interesting.
I think all researchers should be forced to consider the practical applications of their work, if they are publicly funded. Don't want to answer those questions, go find your own money.
Another instance of 'Super Ice' or as named in the article 'Pykrete' in science fiction is in Neal Stephenson's Novel from 2015: Seveneves.
The substance is used in space for the construction of temporary habitats.
I suppose this is plausible if you manage to find a large source of ice and bring it into a stable orbit. It won't melt into liquid, and perhaps the reinforcing fibers could help prevent sublimation.
A lot of the novel strained my ability to suspend disbelief, but the overall scope and ambition is so awesome I was able to forgive the poor editing. It's attempting to be hard sci-fi, much of the novel is taken up by technical descriptions that could only appeal to an engineer-minded person.
> A lot of the novel strained my ability to suspend disbelief, but the overall scope and ambition is so awesome
While the 2nd half of the book is definitely still sci-fi territory, the first part is slowly getting into the plausible tech realm, 12 years after the book was written. We now have a much stronger space industry, and probably could match or exceed the payload to orbit in 2 years from the book (if everyone would work towards the same goal, which is still a bit of fantasy but hey...)
I'm still salty over the Kickstarter he ran about a sword fighting video game that was, at the time, the highest valued project in Kickstarter history, and he just... gave up and released nothing.
The Wikipedia article mentions how this happened with an anti-AIDS medication called ritonavir. I watched this video by Veritasium on that situation a while back; I recommend it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksn5yrsC3Wg
Nice to see Pykrete being mentioned!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete
Fun fact: you don't need sawdust for pykrete. Adding any kind of material e.g. just newspapers can help similar to how rebar makes concrete stronger
Isn't adding newspapers just adding cellulose with some bonus ink?
It adds fiber, which is the key. The main weakness of ice as a crystal is that as soon as a crack forms it can spread along imperfections in the crystal structure. Putting fibre in it bridges those gaps and stops the cracks before they can get big enough to cause significant weakening.
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pip3 install pykrete
It provides the Krete framework for building your vacation to Crete island.
brew install pykrete
uv add pykrete
Jeez cmon
Came to the comments for the pykrete reference, thanks for this.
This type of ice composite would be super interesting for space structure construction. Melt cometary ice and mix it with additives of some kind and spin big cylinders out of it. You’d just have to make the surface reflective so it doesn’t melt, and possibly have some active cooling which you need anyway if anything inside makes heat.
The outer surface would probably be sprayed with something, maybe just reflective dust, to also keep it from subliming into the vacuum.
Extremely repairable, melts at human and equipment friendly temperatures, recyclable, doubles as an emergency water reservoir, and last but definitely not least a fantastic radiation shield.
Would also work for structures on Mars, the Moon, etc, but I’m a fan of the idea of settling space itself not another planet. Gravity wells are a trap.
Frozen fish is about the same strength as carbon fiber composite. You need carbide saw to cut it.
A local magazine did a test on ice cream cone melting. Some of those were still intact looking after sitting open at room temperature for an hour. Hooray for additives! So it's not a fundamentally new idea. These have to be safe to eat so maybe not too harmful for environment, though you never know.
Some parts of the world use ice roads and have struggled with warm winters. Maybe this could be used to improve the strength and extend time in the spring.
Which additive were they using? This article [1] use poliphenols, that are very different from the modified celulose in the top article.
[1] https://thisismold.com/uncategorized/the-science-behind-the-...
https://yle.fi/a/74-20234378
Carob extract and guar gum at least.
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One night I ended up with a scoop of ice cream I had to discard (I think I dropped it on the floor?) so left it in the sink. The next morning, it was still there. This was quite a decent ice cream, both in terms of flavour and texture; it was some of the gums holding it together. That became my new ice-cream of choice for making an affogatto without the icecream completely melting.
Ice nine. Hooray
Ok stronger but doesn't it melt.. What are they going to do with it?
Ice roads would be one application. Once it freezes, usual ferry services can often no longer be upheld. Then, one has to wait until the ice is thick enough to drive a car over the ice. If there was an easily applicable material to drive on ice less than usual 15-20cm of ice, that would decrease that waiting time quite a bit (and make ice roads/bridges possible in locations that would previously be unsuitable). And since it is ice, you can grow it somewhere else and transport in place with a barge.
Another is underground tunnel building. In sandy places, there are cases where they freeze the ground when building a concrete structure. If that could be reinforced with stronger ice, it might make working easier.
Similar, you can use ice as an temporary scaffold when e.g building a spanning bridge in winter. Stronger ice => easier application of said scaffold.
It always sounds/looks like a trap to me when I hear about/see people driving whole-ass cars over 15cm ~= half a foot of ice. That's just wrong, and I would barely consider walking on ice that thick (thin).
(I'm telling you I'm from southern California without telling you I'm from southern California)
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Minecraft iceboat racing coming true?
This sounds like a Rube Goldberg machine if I've ever heard one, for the nichest of niche applications.
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"The intended application isn't for aircraft carriers this time, but rather for construction projects in remote, cold areas where conventional building methods aren't easy to apply – like the Arctic and Antarctic.
With no concrete or steel required, and with ice and plant-based cellulose as the main ingredients, this could be a building material with a low carbon footprint that's also biodegradable."
Climate change feels like a grim reaper slowly stalking the value proposition of this technology.
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Maybe we’ll be building ice caves on other planets after all
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Exactly what I wanted. A biodegradable building. I’m making mine out of compost!
Or maybe Mars?
The original pykrete also melted less easily than pure ice, IIRC the sawdust acts as insulation or something.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk
warmer igloos obviously. :)
igloo skyscrapers
"Further down the line, this approach could open up a whole new landscape for materials used in packaging, construction, and more: Using a custom protein to bring two unlikely compounds (ice and cellulose) together."
Wonder if this will then be used to fulfill the dream of shooting ice bullets which then melt inside the victim, leaving less evidence. If memory serves, I think the CIA explored this at some remote point in time.
Well no, because these aren't just ice-- it's an ice composite.
The CIA already had the SA-C46[1] for that “unexplained death” scenario. I believe ot was developed “but not used”… ;) ;)
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAC-46_(handgun)
The murder weapon is clearly the only gun around that can shoot ice bullets.
Ah but then the murder weapon would melt!
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Concrete's not strong enough to be used as a bullet either- you'd need something roughly the size of a shotgun slug. If you're going that big, you aren't going for subtle.
Wouldn’t there still be evidence that some object penetrated the person and ripped them apart and caused them to bleed out?
Surely the CIA has untraceable ammo at their disposal already?
I imagine the boring truth is that, at least in America, getting shot with a normal "boring" bullet is less traceable than something special or something that mysteriously disappears.
They already have the heart attack gun and half a dozen other gadgets. An ice bullet would be just (pardon the pun) an icing on the cake.
It's a mix of water and celulose, do it does not disapear completely.
For fictional purposes, the ballistic information disappears. You might know the murder victim was shot with an ice bullet, but you won't be able to match it to a specific weapon.
Add some enzymes to help reduce the remaining cellulose?
I believe they used a different frozen compound than water, but yes.
Make a bolt and use crossbow
The point is moot anyway because ballistic forensics is hokum. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-field-of-fire...
It's kind of fascinating how all the bullshit TV copaganda scenes involving forensics have both been A) rightly decried as unrealistic by savvy viewers, and B) still been fairly realistic depictions of the field of forensics.
Mythbusters busted ice bullets. IIRC, the ice didn’t tolerate being shot out of a barrel and disintegrated.
sounds like a problem that might be solvable by a new super ice that is 10x stronger and "can absorb much more energy and deform gradually" instead of disintegrating.
3 replies →
The article briefly touches on future packaging. Would ice ever be useful in packaging frozen foods? It'd be biodegradable, and would be a sign of trust that the goods have been permanently frozen from packaging to delivery.
You'd literally be able to just throw the trash outside and let it feed your garden, lol.
The integrity check could also make this especially valuable for transporting medication that must remain cold. The current state of the art isn't much more than putting ice packs in a styrofoam cooler.
The BioPykrete name is kinda funny. As opposed to the regular pykrete, made with the famously not-bio wood pulp
Well, this beeing war times- this might went really fast from "cool" to - "used in the ukraine war as insitu pontoon drones.
On this topic, I'm sure they were testing a pykrete aircraft carrierº during WW2. I dont think it was every fully realised though.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk
Well a carrier is full of equipment. A submarine freezer drone, building a ponton in the middle of a river is just a self achoring box to drive tanks over.
Its really cool though.. all it needs is fuel, a fridge system and some additions- and freeze some water floaties, then pump air inside.
I feel like the obvious answer here for use is at the skating rink.
It's not necessarily a bonus, different sports need completely different ice properties (e.g. figure skating vs hockey), and a managed arena needs ease of maintenance.
I spend an enormous amount of time at the rink (18 ice times in the last 9 days). Can you explain this? Because I don't see the difference between the ice for figure skating vs hockey, both of which happen daily at our local rink.
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You need the surface of the ice rink to melt though in order to "skate".
You're going to have to explain this we well. I've skated perfectly fine at -40, and there was no melting going on.
When there's melting going on at the rink, we're not allowed on the ice.
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Sounds like a good candidate for shielding an inter-galactic colony ship.
Inter-galactic? My dude I think you missed a few steps
The farther you go, the faster you need to go to get enough time dilation to make the trip worthwhile. The faster you go, the more the shielding matters. It still applies!
1 reply →
I hate how researchers always have to pretend there's a practical application for their inventions. This is clearly never going to replace concrete in any situation. But it's still interesting.
I think all researchers should be forced to consider the practical applications of their work, if they are publicly funded. Don't want to answer those questions, go find your own money.
Finally! Ice-9!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-nine
Another instance of 'Super Ice' or as named in the article 'Pykrete' in science fiction is in Neal Stephenson's Novel from 2015: Seveneves.
The substance is used in space for the construction of temporary habitats. I suppose this is plausible if you manage to find a large source of ice and bring it into a stable orbit. It won't melt into liquid, and perhaps the reinforcing fibers could help prevent sublimation.
A lot of the novel strained my ability to suspend disbelief, but the overall scope and ambition is so awesome I was able to forgive the poor editing. It's attempting to be hard sci-fi, much of the novel is taken up by technical descriptions that could only appeal to an engineer-minded person.
> A lot of the novel strained my ability to suspend disbelief, but the overall scope and ambition is so awesome
While the 2nd half of the book is definitely still sci-fi territory, the first part is slowly getting into the plausible tech realm, 12 years after the book was written. We now have a much stronger space industry, and probably could match or exceed the payload to orbit in 2 years from the book (if everyone would work towards the same goal, which is still a bit of fantasy but hey...)
6 replies →
pykrete isnt a scifi material. its a ww2 idea the brits had for making an ice based aircraft carrier
1 reply →
I'm still salty over the Kickstarter he ran about a sword fighting video game that was, at the time, the highest valued project in Kickstarter history, and he just... gave up and released nothing.
The Wikipedia article mentions how this happened with an anti-AIDS medication called ritonavir. I watched this video by Veritasium on that situation a while back; I recommend it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksn5yrsC3Wg
I literally picked up Cat's Cradle for first time in decades this weekend. Funny how these things line up.
Ice nine!
What is Ice 362880?
(I’m sorry.)