Comment by TFNA
4 days ago
Of course you need Danish in Denmark and it is reasonable to speak Danish in Denmark. But the expectation nowadays is generally that one will practice the language e.g. in a course or with a patient partner and their patient family until at least the B1 level (and ideally B2) level, and only then impose one's imperfect language skills on the general public. At that point, one is no longer quite "practicing" or trying to use a language that one cannot claim to speak yet.
I travel the world for language practice and don't feel too embarassed because 1) I try to get to a B1 level before talking, and 2) I travel in a way that brings me into contact with a lot of elderly people happy for any social contact and novelty. But I am definitely aware of the need to avoid inconveniencing younger people.
> the expectation
Your expectation, imposed upon yourself. I get it, I was embarassed too. It's really not that serious, you can be bad at stuff publicly. Nobody is advocating following people around forcing them to teach you something, but you can still have a great time with people with whom share no language in common. Speaking anything at all just makes things more fun, and people are way more willing to help than you think.
It's just not rude to go to a foreign country armed only with a1 duolingo and a prayer. It's a lot less rude than going there and only speaking english to everyone you meet... Yes even in denmark, even to young people.
As I have gotten better at danish I have had many more young people (the majority of my friend group and social experienced given I went to university here) express that they would prefer to speak to me in danish than the other way around. They were, by default, always making themselves a little uncomfortable, feel a little slower, seem less educated for the sake of communicating with me, because I gave them no other option. Now that I give them the option of switching to a context where I seem like a fool and they are the master, they are happy to take it.
Again, I am not embarassed. And as for the expectation, it is not my own. Have you ever actually spoken to young Europeans about this, or seen the Reddit threads about how customer-facing staff are not there to be your language helper?
Younger Europeans do not necessarily see it as rude for a foreign visitor to come and speak only English. Many local younger people spend a significant portion of their lives in an English-language environment on social media, and mixed European marriages now often use English as the home language. English is no longer seen as an outside thing by which foreigners speaking it are being rude and unappreciative.
And again, domain loss is already ongoing for European languages (and for the Nordic languages this has been observed for like decades now), so it isn't necessarily the case that locals feel more proficient about certain things in their native language and less proficient in English. I have colleagues who would prefer to speak English about technical matters for their own sake, not mine.
> Have you ever actually spoken to young Europeans about this
I can't emphasise enough that I am not only literally a young european, living with a young european partner, with a young european social circle, but I also exist in the real world and not in reddit. I have lived here in denmark for coming up on 10 years.
Yes, I know some extremely online people who have learned better english than danish and talk about noticing a decline in their danish skills. Those few who spend all their time online, on reddit and the like. It's definitely a type, one that by my estimation skews male, autistic, and introverted. Prime hacker news demographic type thing :)
I get it, for you as a linguist its remarkable that this could happen, that people could exist that lose their native tongue or learn another to a higher proficiency of that of the country they live in. We do live in unprecedented times.
However I do not think it is universal, or a majority of young people - I also know many more people who have better knowledge in Danish than in english. It is explicitly on issues of politics, business, science, law, etc that people prefer to speak in danish with me because they do not know the words in english, including at meetup groups dedicated to those things.
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I think that you are projecting some online subculture opinions on whole world. Most people do not even know what B1 or B2 means. In the context of ordering food, B2 is useless.
You can try to order the food in local language. And if they respond in English, you switch to English (if you know it), it is not an insult nor situation you should overthink.
You do not have to assume the worst possible attitudes just because someone is young. Yes, some do dislike foreigners in principle, but that applies no matter which language you use.
Lots of ordinary people in Europe know what B1 and B2 mean, because these are the codes used in standard European CVs, and many countries have language tests for citizenship (or, for non-EU citizens, permanent residency) requiring skills at one of these levels.
Not sure why you think B2 is useless for ordering food. B2 is the level at which one can work in an office environment in the local language, it is already beyond ordering food.
I meant "uselessly high". Expecting yourself to be able to have office job entirely in foreign language before you brave to order beer and steak is absurd.
Also, I had to explain those labels to Europeans enough times to think the labels are not known by random people.