Comment by spwa4
4 days ago
You only have to look at the current situation in China to see that the problem is not capitalism, or communism, at least not by itself:
https://www.wsj.com/world/china-economy-gen-z-f9058941
https://www.economist.com/china/2019/11/14/homelessness-has-...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si2zT-wCs3c
We all know that "real" communist societies like North Korea are worse, much, much worse. In fact within China how bad this is varies enormously. If you're in a "rope village" somewhere deep inland, having the finest house in the entire city is arguably worse than homelessness in Beijing, but the party won't let you leave except as homeless, because you're allocated a "Household" (Hukou) and you aren't allowed to leave.
And, of course, half the problem is the very structure of the communist party itself: local officials hide the problem, because if they don't, they'll be purged or at the very least won't see promotions, ever. Which means that the police will be using violence to hide the problem rather than fix it.
AI can provide incredible wealth, or immeasurable misery, in both capitalist and communist societies. That is not what makes the difference, that is just how political parties like to frame themselves and so the argument why you should choose "left" or "right".
Capitalism and private home ownership can certainly provide housing, but if you go too far or not far enough in private ownership and "protecting capital" they won't. And communism can certainly fix homelessness (the Soviets did, for example), except nowadays they just won't.
AI will provide more tools for people with capital, which primarily will be the government. Whether that solves, say, homelessness is a choice, in either system.
you're allocated a "Household" (Hukou) and you aren't allowed to leave.
This is really not accurate. Historically people have been disincentivized to leave by being excluded from social services and so on, the intent being to avoid large cities turn into mega slums. But the Chinese state has begun to dismantle the hukou system in recent years and allow people to move to mid-tier cities without restrictions, and to grant hukou rights based on duration of residency.
You missed the point and went on a tangent about random countries today.
I don't claim to have a solution for what comes after but it is certain that capitalism will collapse if we ever see significant job loss due to AI and robotics.
> it is certain that capitalism will collapse if we ever see significant job loss due to AI and robotics.
The Luddites said the same thing.
FWIW, they were right. Society may have ended up better off in the end, but the Luddites - the actual individuals affected by the transition, and their families and their children - were absolutely screwed for life.
1 reply →
Luddites = Angry unemployed people who got proven wrong by being brutally murdered.
You may want to read past the headline when it comes to luddites. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Nope.
1) Capitalism has historically been proven to work with 90% unemployment, unlike communism. Of course that would represent an enormous loss compared to today but it would not be enough to collapse it.
2) The same would happen to communism. Talk to someone from China and ask what their government will do when they can run the economy on 90% less people. The answer I've gotten is that they already know: after all the division between CCP/state jobs (which includes all state companies) and "normal" jobs already works like that. Then it was mentioned that there's a reason that people have committed murders for CCP jobs ...
I don't understand what you're complaining about. Yes, the US and Europe are capitalist, BUT there is more than enough room in the law for communist communities. Some of those existed for decades, and some still exist.
If you truly believe communism is better, why not just join one of those instead of dragging everyone along with you?
Capitalism has historically been proven to work with 90% unemployment
When
> Capitalism has historically been proven to work with 90% unemployment
What an extraordinary claim. Elaborate.
> Of course that would represent an enormous loss compared to today but it would not be enough to collapse it.
Betting against a revolution in such a scenario is bold.
> Talk to someone from China
China is capitalist, not communist.
> If you truly believe communism is better, why not just join one of those instead of dragging everyone along with you
Where did I say that? That's a nonsense argument for various reasons but it's not the point of this discussion so I'll skip it.
The Great depression saw 25% unemployment and that was just a temporary upset, try 50% and rising over time. How long are you willing to go hungry supporting capitalism in that environment, and why?
The food is right there, fully automated, the only reason you're not getting it is because you refuse to work in the mines 14 hours a day to get it. Capitalism will survive for a while but people will eventually revolt.
3 replies →