This video is by the owner of Thermal Grizzly. They make thermal pastes and putties, but I think they're best known for their KryoSheet graphene pads.
Although I've never been conscious of pump out as a problem, and have never reapplied thermal paste, I did use a KryoSheet on a 9800X3D in my most recent build. So far, so good.
I built a PC in 2019 with a graphene pad. I have been too lazy to check its integrity. I rely on the lack of airplane sounds coming from my tower as indication it's working
And they talk in the video about how expensive it is now, because of gallium export restrictions in China, and that people shouldn't be using it because it's not cost effective. Only the most hardcore of overclockers should even do it.
If you can get real Honeywell or Laird phase change TIM, they are well proven in long service interval industrial applications. I personally run a Laird 7000 series PCM on my 5800X3D as well as my laptop which originally had Liquid Metal.
> Although I've never been conscious of pump out as a problem, and have never reapplied thermal paste,
I’ve had problems with both pump out and other thermal paste aging problems.
The problem is very different across thermal pastes. Some of the high performance enthusiast market pastes I’ve used have started out great and then degraded until I was having problems a few years later.
My feeling is that the engineers and OEMs understand these tradeoffs better than the hobby market. All of those boring pastes that came in OEM configurations but underperformed the latest $20 tube you could buy in the aftermarket were just making different tradeoffs.
The newer pastes have been better for me so far. The person who made this video also does some testing that’s supposed to simulate pump-out and maintains a database of pastes which has been helpful to finally have after all these years of relying on forum anecdotes for everything.
> My feeling is that the engineers and OEMs understand these tradeoffs better than the hobby market. All of those boring pastes that came in OEM configurations but underperformed the latest $20 tube you could buy in the aftermarket were just making different tradeoffs
For example, if a consumer is going to periodically (or ever) replace / upgrade their thermal paste, they can get a bump in performance. The consumer that's never going to do that is better server by paste that has slightly lower performance, but lasts much longer.
He's a beast at BGA replacement, if you want to learn how to handle big chips he's the one to watch. But yeah, liquid metal sure seems to kill a lot of them, though typically just for the prosaic reason of getting somewhere it shouldn't and shorting something out.
I have a Thinkpad x1 extreme gen 5 with an i9 and 3080. Liquid metal. Overheats like crazy. I want to get in there but I hear it's such a pain to deal with I've been putting it off. Definitely will be swapping to one of the thermal pads when I do it.
Go at it, I have a 1st gen Zephyrus 14inch and had bad heating problems, liquid metal there also initially that just didn't work due to bad application or whatever, repasted it and it's behaved way better.
I was quite nervious, but check Youtube, there's guaranteed some people that has documented the steps, do check multiple ones as some people are more detail oriented or just know what parts can be dangerous/tricky. Good tools can be a lifesaver also (isoprop alcohol for cleaning, lotsa q-tips, good screwdrivers and plastic picks like the fixit toolkits to pry gently).
This, I repasted my wife's Zephyrus laptop which had liquid metal for the Ryzen APU (6900HS), regular thermal paste for the GPU (3080) and thermal putty for VRMs.
Redid APU and GPU with PTM and VRMs with paste. -10C on average on the APU with way lower idle temps, and GPU went from being thermally throttled at 60W to being able to push until 110W. Fan is basically silent for 3 months now, whereas previously I could hear it from the next room.
This video seems to be about LM on untreated copper (which I thought wasn't really advised).
Now, I personally have had two builds with LM. One with LM as the material for a CPU re-lid, and another for a direct-die application. Neither touched aluminum or untreated copper.
The re-lidded CPU is still going strong, no issues. But with the direct die application, I found the performance to significantly degrade after two years. Apparently there's a pump-out effect.
I ended up switching to PTM. Same temps as LM, but zero degradation so far.
> LM on untreated copper (which I thought wasn't really advised).
I think the supposed issue is nickel (the most common waterblock coating) has a much lower thermal conductivity so you might lose a degree or two under load vs a bare copper block.
Which kind of makes sense: people who know what they're doing use liquid metal to squeeze out that last couple degrees vs PTM/graphene so going bare copper and dealing the the buildup problems maybe makes sense for them too.
He mentions in this video that liquid metal really should just be for the extreme overclockers who don't mind changing it out and resurfacing their waterblocks regularly which is good advice. The fact liquid metal is even semi-mainstream and comes standard on any consumer hardware is kind of stupid.
I never really understood why you would risk using liquid metal versus something like Honeywell's PTM with the effect size in temperature difference indistinguishable from statistical noise. The only drawback I've seen for the PTMs is that the paste is extremely sticky to the point that I've ripped pins off an old 3600 when I tried to remount the cooler without warming it up first.
From what I've seen the whole PC review industry operates on emotional narratives rather than scientific measurements. When is the last time you saw a cooler spec'd by its thermal conductance (Watts per degree C) as opposed to a whole rigamarole of we used so and so RGB motherboard with so and so PC case and this version of Windows with so and so benchmarking software. And every cooler in the limited set we compared it to was worse, but of course we left a whole bunch out. Like sure integration testing can be useful, but it doesn't beat characterizing units in isolation with hard numbers. And they never reduce the number of variables enough to do that.
> PTM thermal paste—most famously known as Honeywell PTM7950—is a Phase Change Material (PCM) used as a high-performance alternative to traditional CPU and GPU thermal paste
There's been concerns for a while with the PS5 and the use of liquid metal in that. Especially given it stands vertically, and that liquid metal can "shift" downwards
FWIW, you can set it horizontally. You need to use the -heh- stand they include for the purpose, but it's how I have mine configured and it works fine.
I get that size and shape of the case may make this the least popular way of orienting the hardware, but -unless they've decided to save ten cents by not including the stand- it's just as doable as the vertical orientation.
OP meant the risk of liquid metal acting amorphic and slowly leaking/shifting, moreso because with the console being vertical, the gravity force is pulling on the metal very strongly.
they're slightly less efficient than a good paste and need a higher pressure interface to seat well, but I like the zero mess aspect, ease of application, and knowing they'll never dry out
I wouldn't call them "reusable" since they do get crushed onto the chip or heatsink pretty hard and tend stick
Another liquid metal you have to watch out for is mercury. A former employer of mine traced elevated RAM degradation in a particular datacentre to mercury contamination in the canal the used for cooling water. Mercury has an interesting way of migrating through other metals.
This video is by the owner of Thermal Grizzly. They make thermal pastes and putties, but I think they're best known for their KryoSheet graphene pads.
Although I've never been conscious of pump out as a problem, and have never reapplied thermal paste, I did use a KryoSheet on a 9800X3D in my most recent build. So far, so good.
I built a PC in 2019 with a graphene pad. I have been too lazy to check its integrity. I rely on the lack of airplane sounds coming from my tower as indication it's working
They also make Liquid Metal themselves. Pretty sure that’s a substantial part of their business actually…
And they talk in the video about how expensive it is now, because of gallium export restrictions in China, and that people shouldn't be using it because it's not cost effective. Only the most hardcore of overclockers should even do it.
But it was a very informative video regardless.
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They also sell liquid metal under the conductonaut line.
I thought ptm was all the rage anyway as it can't pump out and is very very long lasting, but I'm probably outdated in that respect.
If you can get real Honeywell or Laird phase change TIM, they are well proven in long service interval industrial applications. I personally run a Laird 7000 series PCM on my 5800X3D as well as my laptop which originally had Liquid Metal.
PTM is still all the rage, but liquid metal is more marketable.
Of the latest gen of AMD GPUs, a bunch used PTM.
> Although I've never been conscious of pump out as a problem, and have never reapplied thermal paste,
I’ve had problems with both pump out and other thermal paste aging problems.
The problem is very different across thermal pastes. Some of the high performance enthusiast market pastes I’ve used have started out great and then degraded until I was having problems a few years later.
My feeling is that the engineers and OEMs understand these tradeoffs better than the hobby market. All of those boring pastes that came in OEM configurations but underperformed the latest $20 tube you could buy in the aftermarket were just making different tradeoffs.
The newer pastes have been better for me so far. The person who made this video also does some testing that’s supposed to simulate pump-out and maintains a database of pastes which has been helpful to finally have after all these years of relying on forum anecdotes for everything.
> My feeling is that the engineers and OEMs understand these tradeoffs better than the hobby market. All of those boring pastes that came in OEM configurations but underperformed the latest $20 tube you could buy in the aftermarket were just making different tradeoffs
For example, if a consumer is going to periodically (or ever) replace / upgrade their thermal paste, they can get a bump in performance. The consumer that's never going to do that is better server by paste that has slightly lower performance, but lasts much longer.
I've been meaning to get one of these, as I was looking to make a liquid cooling dock, so I can't have an interface that adheres to any of the sides.
Does it really simply not stick and is held in place by pressure alone?
It definitely slides around. The package I got included silicone oil to anchor it with a drop in the center.
Oh man, I would never put (bulk) gallium into electronics if I could help it. That stuff gets into everything and will wreck various metals.
One of my favorite LockPickingLawyer videos is of Gallium utterly destroying the aluminum body of a padlock.
Yup. One of the first things I did when I got my laptop a couple of years ago was to clean out the Liquid Metal and replace it with PCM.
TechIngredients studied this and found that Silicone oil and Graphene makes the best thermal paste for cooling chips;
"DID WE JUST MAKE THE WORLD'S BEST THERMAL PASTE!?" https://youtube.com/watch?v=Glfak2B9J5U
"Make Our Best Thermal Paste... YOURSELF!" https://youtube.com/watch?v=8RJ-vLLwDPU
I was wondering where the liquid metal would come from but apparently it's an alternative to thermal paste.
There is a youtube laptop repair show I follow that specializes in Dells and he *HATES* liquid metal, causes soooo many problems when it leaks
Are we not allowed to speak northwestrepair's name or something?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNjoREOH80Y
He's a beast at BGA replacement, if you want to learn how to handle big chips he's the one to watch. But yeah, liquid metal sure seems to kill a lot of them, though typically just for the prosaic reason of getting somewhere it shouldn't and shorting something out.
I believe the previous commenter meant Parts-People: https://www.youtube.com/@dellpartspeople
Both seem to regularly face laptops and GPUs respectively that have BGAs shorted out by leaking liquid metal.
I have a couple of modded 4090's here and it is amazing what you can get out of slightly older chips with lots of VRAM.
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I have a dead mini PC due to liquid metal leaking. Never opened it before it died, never kept it upright.
I don’t think I’ll put anything liquid on my electronics ever again.
If you're not too hung up on that whole forever-chemical thing, you can still buy Fluorinert on eBay!
I have a Thinkpad x1 extreme gen 5 with an i9 and 3080. Liquid metal. Overheats like crazy. I want to get in there but I hear it's such a pain to deal with I've been putting it off. Definitely will be swapping to one of the thermal pads when I do it.
Go at it, I have a 1st gen Zephyrus 14inch and had bad heating problems, liquid metal there also initially that just didn't work due to bad application or whatever, repasted it and it's behaved way better.
I was quite nervious, but check Youtube, there's guaranteed some people that has documented the steps, do check multiple ones as some people are more detail oriented or just know what parts can be dangerous/tricky. Good tools can be a lifesaver also (isoprop alcohol for cleaning, lotsa q-tips, good screwdrivers and plastic picks like the fixit toolkits to pry gently).
This, I repasted my wife's Zephyrus laptop which had liquid metal for the Ryzen APU (6900HS), regular thermal paste for the GPU (3080) and thermal putty for VRMs.
Redid APU and GPU with PTM and VRMs with paste. -10C on average on the APU with way lower idle temps, and GPU went from being thermally throttled at 60W to being able to push until 110W. Fan is basically silent for 3 months now, whereas previously I could hear it from the next room.
Not the end of the world to deal with, you just have to be very careful. No harder than mobile phone repair if that’s something you’ve ever done
After how long? I.e. did you get a few good years with it?
Not OP, but it launched in June 2022, so less life than I'd like to see from a Thinkpad regardless of how you slice it.
It's at most 4 years old. For that high end of a laptop I have pretty high expectations, I think it was over $4k retail.
This video seems to be about LM on untreated copper (which I thought wasn't really advised).
Now, I personally have had two builds with LM. One with LM as the material for a CPU re-lid, and another for a direct-die application. Neither touched aluminum or untreated copper.
The re-lidded CPU is still going strong, no issues. But with the direct die application, I found the performance to significantly degrade after two years. Apparently there's a pump-out effect.
I ended up switching to PTM. Same temps as LM, but zero degradation so far.
> LM on untreated copper (which I thought wasn't really advised).
I think the supposed issue is nickel (the most common waterblock coating) has a much lower thermal conductivity so you might lose a degree or two under load vs a bare copper block.
Which kind of makes sense: people who know what they're doing use liquid metal to squeeze out that last couple degrees vs PTM/graphene so going bare copper and dealing the the buildup problems maybe makes sense for them too.
He mentions in this video that liquid metal really should just be for the extreme overclockers who don't mind changing it out and resurfacing their waterblocks regularly which is good advice. The fact liquid metal is even semi-mainstream and comes standard on any consumer hardware is kind of stupid.
I never really understood why you would risk using liquid metal versus something like Honeywell's PTM with the effect size in temperature difference indistinguishable from statistical noise. The only drawback I've seen for the PTMs is that the paste is extremely sticky to the point that I've ripped pins off an old 3600 when I tried to remount the cooler without warming it up first.
From what I've seen the whole PC review industry operates on emotional narratives rather than scientific measurements. When is the last time you saw a cooler spec'd by its thermal conductance (Watts per degree C) as opposed to a whole rigamarole of we used so and so RGB motherboard with so and so PC case and this version of Windows with so and so benchmarking software. And every cooler in the limited set we compared it to was worse, but of course we left a whole bunch out. Like sure integration testing can be useful, but it doesn't beat characterizing units in isolation with hard numbers. And they never reduce the number of variables enough to do that.
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That's what I had lying around when I started the build. PTM is now my go-to recommendation.
Had never heard of PTM, actually super cool.
> PTM thermal paste—most famously known as Honeywell PTM7950—is a Phase Change Material (PCM) used as a high-performance alternative to traditional CPU and GPU thermal paste
Application Demonstration: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y60A_589wj8
Yeah, first time that I hear about it as well. Pretty sure that it is what I'll use next time I need a thermal interface material.
There's been concerns for a while with the PS5 and the use of liquid metal in that. Especially given it stands vertically, and that liquid metal can "shift" downwards
> Especially given it stands vertically...
FWIW, you can set it horizontally. You need to use the -heh- stand they include for the purpose, but it's how I have mine configured and it works fine.
I get that size and shape of the case may make this the least popular way of orienting the hardware, but -unless they've decided to save ten cents by not including the stand- it's just as doable as the vertical orientation.
OP meant the risk of liquid metal acting amorphic and slowly leaking/shifting, moreso because with the console being vertical, the gravity force is pulling on the metal very strongly.
Tangential but people might think it's neat - there's reusable indium pads for replacing thermal paste - https://www.indium.com/products/thermal-interface-materials/...
They are used on the Supermicro Power9 platform weirdly.
they're slightly less efficient than a good paste and need a higher pressure interface to seat well, but I like the zero mess aspect, ease of application, and knowing they'll never dry out
I wouldn't call them "reusable" since they do get crushed onto the chip or heatsink pretty hard and tend stick
Another liquid metal you have to watch out for is mercury. A former employer of mine traced elevated RAM degradation in a particular datacentre to mercury contamination in the canal the used for cooling water. Mercury has an interesting way of migrating through other metals.
This is covered in the plot of Terminator 2. The liquid metal tries really hard.
Man, I hate it when my gaming rig turns out to be a T-1000...