Comment by Sohcahtoa82
3 days ago
> Games with online functionality would also be required to provide an offline mode before the servers supporting them are shut down.
For some games, like MMORPGs, an offline mode doesn't make sense.
In lieu of that, they need to make the server binaries available, along with client functionality to let you choose a server. They shouldn't be required to offer support, but the nerd community is great at figuring things out. They'll get it working and produce guides.
They should release either the server component or documentation for how it works and a way to unlock any protections around it. I’ve seen people argue before that releasing the whole backend stack would be an issue and I agree, but documentation shouldn’t be an issue.
I would prefer that this become the standard for software, as a whole, to be open source after a while. Because there is a sustainability aspect, just like the rest of the tools in our world.
For example, a manual drill has no real draw backs it will always run. An electric drill with a cord, will likely always run and electrical components can be traced and sourced rather easily. A drill that was designed to use with a battery, will not always run, and has software/firmware with some other limitations likely buried in the software.
The moment support is dropped, it should be released to open source to allow others interested to maintain it. Such as with the Nvidia Geforce GTX 1080 Ti... no longer supported with driver updates (outside of "security updates"). The firmware should be supported by the people if the company doesn't want to support it, it still is an excellent card even 10 years later...
MMO or not, source code should just be released. Patents are not forever, source code shouldn't be either. Though patent might be too long as well. 15/20 years worked when things developed slowly, but now days its outdated within years and could benefit other advancements.
If a company is willing to continue maintaining a piece of code their monopoly should continue. If they choose to stop (because they can't come up with a sustainable business model, can't find somebody to sell the monopoly to who will, etc) it should become, at minimum, source available (if not out right Open Source).
This should be the case, especially, for software that drives long-lived hardware devices in infrastructure roles (public works, manufacturing, etc).
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The 1080ti support depreciation is a travesty. Its still plays games great. Makes it hard to justify future nvidia purchases for gaming rigs
But that’s not the same thing as supporting offline mode, at all.
> but documentation shouldn’t be an issue
Oh boy. I would bet that at any medium sized games company the number of people who can run the full stack of a game from client to backend locally is single digits, and that it is absolutely not documented.
Documentation? In the video game industry? Surely you jest.
seems a good price to pay, it gives that guy something to do before he can switch off the server/product.
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I dunno, there’s plenty of projects that turn MMORPGs into self-contained single player RPGs and/or simulate other players with bots, so I don’t really see any reason why they should be excluded.
I don't think they're saying exclude them, but expand the legislation to include a common scenario.
Releasing server binaries might be a stretch, but what about API specs?
Then any 3rd party could stand up a new server and at least have an inkling of where to go on.
That's never going to happen. Game companies are not going to give you their source code. Usually the source of any game that gets shut down is shared with games that are still live. Example: if Fallout 76 is shut down, Bethesda giving you their source would essentially be giving you the source to Skyrim also. I'm not saying that I have the solution or that your idea isn't good on some level, but we have to be realistic.
Counterpoint: maybe we could make proprietary software illegal, and make everything GPL so we can just request the source code to anything we want. With enough eyes all bugs are shallow, so why wouldn't banks and nuclear reactors want their source to be audited by the public? lol
(Software might become de facto open source with AI decomp anyway)
>> They need to make the server binaries available, along with client functionality to let you choose a server.
> Game companies are not going to give you their source code.
Okay but what about the thing they actually proposed?
I’ve worked on games where the server code is python, or there’s “core logic” in SQL, or we’ve used third party libraries that aren’t suitable for binary redistribution. Most studios will share code between games and server code isn’t intended to be redistributed so will contain “secret sauce” for multiple games. I’m not saying these are deal breakers but saying “just give them server binaries” isn’t a handwave solution for most of the games that these sorts of acts target.
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> That's never going to happen. Game companies are not going to give you their source code.
We don't need them to; AI can reverse engineer most shit now.
Even if US lobbying tries to hamper that, China will accelerate it.
> Game companies are not going to give you their source code.
I don't know if you misinterpreted my comment or if you're strawmanning, because I didn't say anything about source code.
Well then they can simply not shut down the old games.
> Software might become de facto open source with AI decomp anyway
Agreed.
> Example: if Fallout 76 is shut down, Bethesda giving you their source would essentially be giving you the source to Skyrim also.
That’s kinda bullshit to different degrees with different games.
> That's never going to happen. Game companies are not going to give you their source code.
Sure they will. They can be forced to by the government which is society's monopoly on violence.
> but we have to be realistic.
No we don't. We can just force companies to do it, using the threat of the law.
Funcom released a single player update for Dune: Awakening (not quite MMO but close) just a few weeks ago. They have simulated player economy and end game systems and flexible rules+progression for the game itself ... it's been great.
For many online games the same could be done. Simulate the systems, give players the ability to tweak the rules and just have fun.
This bill seems to be aimed at the situation where your purchase a copy of some game, and then the game becomes unplayable because some online service it depends on goes away.
For most MMORPGs nowadays the game client is a free download. You only pay for the online service. I seriously doubt they will draft this in a way that would cover that.
I would argue that server binaries are less important now in the age of AI. The ability to reverse engineer them is so accessible now.
I think more importantly / more digestible is that you can't pursue legislation against people running their own game servers if you no longer offer the game yourself.
This is definitely the most defensible position. I'm sure others want stronger protections, but taking lawsuits off the table for any item no longer for sale (be it a game, other software, hardware, media, etc) would make a ton of sense.
No one can reasonably claim to be harmed in such a scenario. Enshrine abandonware into law.
I find myself in general agreement but I wonder what second order issues would come about. Will we see companies listing an old game for a trillion dollars a copy just to keep rights?
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It's currently accessible, but I'm sure they will start adding whatever roadblocks they can. e.g. Requiring attestation before running game, keeping some logic in server side which will be sent only to clients which pass the attestation, requiring platforms which grant more protections etc.
I can’t help but think that would end up violating some licensing agreements.
Ironically the various versions of WoW im self hosting have really good singleplayer support.
MMOs should have offline modes for LAN parties.
No reason a remote community can't host their own instance, and save bandwidth.