Very much. In Portugal, where I know their bad behavior from, it's almost impossible to keep a garden unless you have excellent fencing and ideally a loud dog to let you know when they are on your land (not that you want them to actually meet, that would be dangerous).
Yes, very much so here in and around Berlin. No garden is safe, and neither is your trash unless you lock it in somewhere. They no longer mind human presence at all, which was not the case 20 years ago (they used to be very shy), and they have become really smart, too, and have opened or unhinged our fence gate several times.
in Italy they're a significant issue due to foreign species having been introduced years ago. The new species reproduce faster than they are killed by hunters or predators.
We should also definitely reintroduce lions to Southern Europe !
We know for sure they were roaming in Greece (Herodote talks about them during wars against Persia, Herakles had to kill Nemee lion according to the legend, etc.), and that they were hunted, most certainly to extinction.
Researching this and imagining what the Romans saw in their campaigns up north, and also Asterix comics, I found this tidbit about adaptation in general: "Wolves generally follow Bergmann's rule, a biological principle stating that populations of the same species living in colder, higher-latitude environments tend to be larger than those closer to the equator."
I saw something like this in the City I live in. There were Pigeons everywhere. one day ages ago I was riding my bicycle to college and I saw a hawk fly down to a group of Pigeons hanging around on the ground and grab one. The Pigeons looked surprised and did not know what to do. That was over 40 years ago when Hawks started repopulating the area.
Not long afterwards, all Pigeons started hiding and you do not see many just hanging around. One favorite place is under bridges. Shows animals will learn real fast to avoid threats :)
I had a bird feeder out in my backyard one winter and had a hawk show up looking for lunch. A squirrel that was hanging around scrounging on the ground ran and hid under a cedar tree. It was interesting because for 99% of other threats, their instinct is to get off ground level and up a tree or telephone pole to safety. Apparently they're smart enough to know not to do that with birds of prey.
Across European Plain entire native wildlife down to pigeons and rats had been killed and/or consumed at some point because of wars and famines. Entire current wildlife has been reintroduced.
Ah yes the nice EU experiment where it uses the Netherlands for as their experimentation grounds. The goal of having more wild life is lofty, but it makes no sense in the netherlands . For the people who don't know, there weren't wild wolves up to 2015.
There now are many and they've attacked people, horses and wiped out complete herds of sheep. The amount of sheep they are killing is increasing exponentially. (not using exponentially lightly here.)
Proponents during the 2015-2020 era said that it would never come to this situation, alas.
Rhetoric questions by proponents as seen on national news website[1]:
> We hebben ook weleens last van de mens, die schieten we toch ook niet af?
> -- Aaldrik Pot
Translated:
"We also have issues with people every now and then, were not shooting them are we?"
The wolves seemingly made it back into the Netherlands on their own:
In a paper published in 2016, “The first proof of the recent presence of Wolves in the Netherlands,” authors wrote:
“In light of the expansion of wolves from the Polish border to the northwest of Germany and the sightings in Denmark, the appearance of the wolf in the Netherlands was no surprise to most experts. In March 2015, this expectation was fulfilled when, after generations without resident wolves, a single wolf wandered through the Dutch provinces of Drenthe and Groningen in broad daylight. From 7 to 10 March 2015, the Netherlands witnessed the comeback of an iconic species.”
I have zero insight into why Wageningen University & Research (WUR) in the Netherlands concluded in a study that "the Netherlands are legally required to contribute between 23 and 56 wolf packs" (Lost in translation? - perhaps "can support and shouldn't cull below these numbers" ?)
Dutch version of the WUR page says basically the same thing: "Uit het onderzoeksrapport blijkt dat Nederland juridisch gezien een bijdrage aan de wolvenpopulatie moet leveren van 23 tot 56 roedels. " -> the study concludes that the Netherlands has to contribute to the wolf population from 23 to 56 wolf packs.
It seems that this is part of a european "habitats directive" for managing biodiversity within Europe. This directive (according to the above paper) determined there need to be around 500 wolf packs across Europe to keep wolves at a stable level without too much inbreeding. The Netherlands was found to be able to "contribute" 23 to 56 wolf packs in this sense.
you have to go back more than 100 years, but fair.
In those 100 years the rest of the environment changed, it's a bit of an experiment right to reintroduce it without having contingency plan if things go wrong, because shooting them if they are too aggressive is not allowed, unless they're marked as 'problem wolf'.
Population control, preventing overgrazing, stuff like that. However, the Netherlands (unlike most countries) is basically a big farm with practically no wild nature, so humans manage that stuff already. Maybe I'm exaggerating a tad, but I don't get what benefit wolves have in the Netherlands specifically.
Wildboars can be quite destructive, as are deers. the wolve was the natural preditor of those animals so the only thing that kept them in check was either hunting, disease or food availability.
In the UK deer over population is a problem for forestry as they eat saplings. So we spend a lot of cash hunting them (good food source, but not widely distributed in shops) Wolves stop that.
For the netherlands sspecifically, where there are deer they eat the trees that provide bank stability (ie willows) Less of a problem now but they also eat the pioneer species that were used to build polders.
Deer carry disease for cattle and sheep as well. although cows in holland are fairly hemmed in, ticks and fleas are less so.
Honestly wolves work with smell and will actively avoid humans. Opposite to domesticated dogs which at the sight of a human will bark at a human and oftentimes attack. Having lived in multiple regions in Europe with statistical presence of wolves I have zero encounters with wolves and dozens of occurrences where domesticated dog was barking at me or chasing me.
Maybe they're saying that there are better ways to coexist with animals that were here before us, before we razed their forests, than, you know, genocide
That’s not true. Wolves are incredibly smart animals and will find and exploit weak points in otherwise expensive fencing systems. They also jump surprisingly high. Moreover, once they manage to cross a fence they do not kill to feed. Instead, they slaughter entire herds of sheep for the sport of it. I personally think wolves are incredible animals, but their sudden reintroduction in the Netherlands feels ill thought out.
Hmm. Well, not sure about this. If you put yourself in the shoes of the wolf, sheep are abundant, free, delicious everything- their "economy" is exclusively food-bound. Not sure what kind of fences would keep them out, and how expensive would they be- and how long they would last.
It's not just the Netherlands, this is happening in Italy as well. Part of it is just the natural consequence of people having abandoned the countryside and mountains for the cities. But we certainly forgot what it means to not be the only apex predator around- we used to be able to roam around without a fear in the world like we owned the fucking place (we did). It's nice to have a wild ecosystem around but we probably forgot what it means to have around beings that are... unaligned with us.
Why are sheep so important to protect versus wolves? They are both animals that existed in nature and can continue to exist in nature.
Why should we be morally inclined to try and "save" sheep at the expense of wolves. Sheep and goats and deer survived throughout history without the help of humans they will continue to exist, with or without the help of humans against wolves.
sorry but I think you are not considering history and data here... sheep and goats were selectively bred by humans and often cannot survive without us. Modern (domestic) sheep and goats are veeeery different from their wild ancestors (e.g. traits vital for wild survival got removed). The idea that "they survived history, they will survive forever" is a classic logical fallacy. Many species survived for millions of years right up until rapid environmental shifts/new pressures drove them to extinction (e.g. see the pyrenean ibex). Moreso: modern habitats have little resemblance to historical ones. Wild deer/goats/sheeps evolved in vast, connected ecosystems! With human development (highways/agricultural fencing/climate change) today we have severely fragmented habitats: natural migration routes are no longer there. So a lot of these "survived thorughtout history" animals can get easily squared / hunted down
yes for the love of god would someone please make sure the country remains a safe, boring holiday park / dairy farm. will someone think of all that poor livestock / the children!!1
Well I guess we differ there then, I do like not having to carry a rifle or sprays when i walk outside (we are not allowed). I also like livestock and kids not having to fear a predator that we drove to the outskirts.
I do wonder where you live in the Netherlands and if you just find it convenient to talk about the rural parts without having to face the consequences.
Introducing the concept of the "scratchpost" to nature lovers.
If im small and hunted, why does it help me to know predators nearby who do not hunt me- and to take predators chasing me, to them, so they get eaten? Because survival means, if i have a scratchpost, i can get rid of them.
So what is a village of humans- not allowed to hunt me near houses, with driving cars- other then a predator scratchpost. Bonuspoints if the disney-hystrics install dart guns to sedate the predators.
Also look at those boars and deer. They are massive. Are you really sure, a creature whose culture changes on a yearly basis, will not try to attack a weak human, compared to a wild boar, when hunger bites in the winter?
for those who don't speak Dutch: we haven't had wolves in a long time.
now that they're back, eg. wild boar are seen congegating in groups of 50-60 animals, for herd safety. something they never did before.
Edit: this linked, translated article has more info https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2635314-wolf-maakt-zwi...
Are wild boar a nuance in Europe like they are in Texas?
Very much. In Portugal, where I know their bad behavior from, it's almost impossible to keep a garden unless you have excellent fencing and ideally a loud dog to let you know when they are on your land (not that you want them to actually meet, that would be dangerous).
Yes, very much so here in and around Berlin. No garden is safe, and neither is your trash unless you lock it in somewhere. They no longer mind human presence at all, which was not the case 20 years ago (they used to be very shy), and they have become really smart, too, and have opened or unhinged our fence gate several times.
1 reply →
in Italy they're a significant issue due to foreign species having been introduced years ago. The new species reproduce faster than they are killed by hunters or predators.
1 reply →
American English to YNews -- nuance is not nuisance
10 replies →
We should also definitely reintroduce lions to Southern Europe ! We know for sure they were roaming in Greece (Herodote talks about them during wars against Persia, Herakles had to kill Nemee lion according to the legend, etc.), and that they were hunted, most certainly to extinction.
Those are completely extinct, they were not the same lions that roam African savanna. It's too late
We can get Colossal Biosciences on the case. They can add the European Lion to their list after the Woolly Mammoth.
And centaurs!
Researching this and imagining what the Romans saw in their campaigns up north, and also Asterix comics, I found this tidbit about adaptation in general: "Wolves generally follow Bergmann's rule, a biological principle stating that populations of the same species living in colder, higher-latitude environments tend to be larger than those closer to the equator."
I saw something like this in the City I live in. There were Pigeons everywhere. one day ages ago I was riding my bicycle to college and I saw a hawk fly down to a group of Pigeons hanging around on the ground and grab one. The Pigeons looked surprised and did not know what to do. That was over 40 years ago when Hawks started repopulating the area.
Not long afterwards, all Pigeons started hiding and you do not see many just hanging around. One favorite place is under bridges. Shows animals will learn real fast to avoid threats :)
I had a bird feeder out in my backyard one winter and had a hawk show up looking for lunch. A squirrel that was hanging around scrounging on the ground ran and hid under a cedar tree. It was interesting because for 99% of other threats, their instinct is to get off ground level and up a tree or telephone pole to safety. Apparently they're smart enough to know not to do that with birds of prey.
Across European Plain entire native wildlife down to pigeons and rats had been killed and/or consumed at some point because of wars and famines. Entire current wildlife has been reintroduced.
Ah yes the nice EU experiment where it uses the Netherlands for as their experimentation grounds. The goal of having more wild life is lofty, but it makes no sense in the netherlands . For the people who don't know, there weren't wild wolves up to 2015. There now are many and they've attacked people, horses and wiped out complete herds of sheep. The amount of sheep they are killing is increasing exponentially. (not using exponentially lightly here.) Proponents during the 2015-2020 era said that it would never come to this situation, alas.
Rhetoric questions by proponents as seen on national news website[1]:
> We hebben ook weleens last van de mens, die schieten we toch ook niet af?
> -- Aaldrik Pot
Translated:
"We also have issues with people every now and then, were not shooting them are we?"
[1]: https://nos.nl/artikel/2245512-waarom-willen-we-eigenlijk-wi...
The wolves seemingly made it back into the Netherlands on their own:
~ https://wolf.org/wow/europe/netherlands/
Wolf numbers are now reportedly at 131 split across roughly 14 packs (April 2026): https://nltimes.nl/2026/04/11/dutch-wolf-population-growing-...
I have zero insight into why Wageningen University & Research (WUR) in the Netherlands concluded in a study that "the Netherlands are legally required to contribute between 23 and 56 wolf packs" (Lost in translation? - perhaps "can support and shouldn't cull below these numbers" ?)
~ https://www.wur.nl/en/news/ecological-and-legal-framework-wo...
Dutch version of the WUR page says basically the same thing: "Uit het onderzoeksrapport blijkt dat Nederland juridisch gezien een bijdrage aan de wolvenpopulatie moet leveren van 23 tot 56 roedels. " -> the study concludes that the Netherlands has to contribute to the wolf population from 23 to 56 wolf packs.
Reading further:
https://edepot.wur.nl/690748
It seems that this is part of a european "habitats directive" for managing biodiversity within Europe. This directive (according to the above paper) determined there need to be around 500 wolf packs across Europe to keep wolves at a stable level without too much inbreeding. The Netherlands was found to be able to "contribute" 23 to 56 wolf packs in this sense.
1 reply →
Shame they can't swim, it would be good to see them reintroduced to the UK.
7 replies →
If those were wild sheep, and the wolves came there on their own like the other comments said, isn't that just nature working as intended?
If those were private sheep, shouldn't they be better guarded?
6 replies →
> For the people who don't know, there weren't wild wolves up to 2015.
Well, if you go further back in time, there were. It's not like introducing a nonnative species.
you have to go back more than 100 years, but fair.
In those 100 years the rest of the environment changed, it's a bit of an experiment right to reintroduce it without having contingency plan if things go wrong, because shooting them if they are too aggressive is not allowed, unless they're marked as 'problem wolf'.
1 reply →
Surely there are benefits to this. What are they? Could you provide a steel man of the opposition, please?
Population control, preventing overgrazing, stuff like that. However, the Netherlands (unlike most countries) is basically a big farm with practically no wild nature, so humans manage that stuff already. Maybe I'm exaggerating a tad, but I don't get what benefit wolves have in the Netherlands specifically.
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Its larger animal control.
Wildboars can be quite destructive, as are deers. the wolve was the natural preditor of those animals so the only thing that kept them in check was either hunting, disease or food availability.
In the UK deer over population is a problem for forestry as they eat saplings. So we spend a lot of cash hunting them (good food source, but not widely distributed in shops) Wolves stop that.
For the netherlands sspecifically, where there are deer they eat the trees that provide bank stability (ie willows) Less of a problem now but they also eat the pioneer species that were used to build polders.
Deer carry disease for cattle and sheep as well. although cows in holland are fairly hemmed in, ticks and fleas are less so.
Everyone wants wolves except the people who have to actually live with them.
I'm not sure the wolves actually want to live with those people either but no one is suggesting to eradicate those people.
Honestly wolves work with smell and will actively avoid humans. Opposite to domesticated dogs which at the sight of a human will bark at a human and oftentimes attack. Having lived in multiple regions in Europe with statistical presence of wolves I have zero encounters with wolves and dozens of occurrences where domesticated dog was barking at me or chasing me.
Maybe they're saying that there are better ways to coexist with animals that were here before us, before we razed their forests, than, you know, genocide
Primarily because sheep owners refuse to install good fences.
That’s not true. Wolves are incredibly smart animals and will find and exploit weak points in otherwise expensive fencing systems. They also jump surprisingly high. Moreover, once they manage to cross a fence they do not kill to feed. Instead, they slaughter entire herds of sheep for the sport of it. I personally think wolves are incredible animals, but their sudden reintroduction in the Netherlands feels ill thought out.
3 replies →
Hmm. Well, not sure about this. If you put yourself in the shoes of the wolf, sheep are abundant, free, delicious everything- their "economy" is exclusively food-bound. Not sure what kind of fences would keep them out, and how expensive would they be- and how long they would last.
It's not just the Netherlands, this is happening in Italy as well. Part of it is just the natural consequence of people having abandoned the countryside and mountains for the cities. But we certainly forgot what it means to not be the only apex predator around- we used to be able to roam around without a fear in the world like we owned the fucking place (we did). It's nice to have a wild ecosystem around but we probably forgot what it means to have around beings that are... unaligned with us.
Speaking as a non urban northern Australian .. I'm guessing that's very much a European "we"?
Here we're still surrounded by wild ecosystems and unaligned others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA3SuHtCWo0
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Oh no, the poor sheep!
Why are sheep so important to protect versus wolves? They are both animals that existed in nature and can continue to exist in nature.
Why should we be morally inclined to try and "save" sheep at the expense of wolves. Sheep and goats and deer survived throughout history without the help of humans they will continue to exist, with or without the help of humans against wolves.
Its not morals, it cost.
Sheep are a cash animal, and wolves taking them cost money.
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sorry but I think you are not considering history and data here... sheep and goats were selectively bred by humans and often cannot survive without us. Modern (domestic) sheep and goats are veeeery different from their wild ancestors (e.g. traits vital for wild survival got removed). The idea that "they survived history, they will survive forever" is a classic logical fallacy. Many species survived for millions of years right up until rapid environmental shifts/new pressures drove them to extinction (e.g. see the pyrenean ibex). Moreso: modern habitats have little resemblance to historical ones. Wild deer/goats/sheeps evolved in vast, connected ecosystems! With human development (highways/agricultural fencing/climate change) today we have severely fragmented habitats: natural migration routes are no longer there. So a lot of these "survived thorughtout history" animals can get easily squared / hunted down
yes for the love of god would someone please make sure the country remains a safe, boring holiday park / dairy farm. will someone think of all that poor livestock / the children!!1
Well I guess we differ there then, I do like not having to carry a rifle or sprays when i walk outside (we are not allowed). I also like livestock and kids not having to fear a predator that we drove to the outskirts.
I do wonder where you live in the Netherlands and if you just find it convenient to talk about the rural parts without having to face the consequences.
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"safe and boring holiday park" sounds like a sentence for a country.
6 replies →
Beep beep! We have detected your mild criticism of the EU and have applied the necessary downvotes. Have a nice day!
Oh don't get me wrong, I like the EU for many things, but course correcting is not its strong suit.
Introducing the concept of the "scratchpost" to nature lovers. If im small and hunted, why does it help me to know predators nearby who do not hunt me- and to take predators chasing me, to them, so they get eaten? Because survival means, if i have a scratchpost, i can get rid of them.
So what is a village of humans- not allowed to hunt me near houses, with driving cars- other then a predator scratchpost. Bonuspoints if the disney-hystrics install dart guns to sedate the predators.
Also look at those boars and deer. They are massive. Are you really sure, a creature whose culture changes on a yearly basis, will not try to attack a weak human, compared to a wild boar, when hunger bites in the winter?